Do you have the C or C++ standard? (serious question)

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by Chris Hills, Sep 29, 2006.

  1. Chris Hills

    Chris Hills Guest

    Hi,

    It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...

    I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    standards).

    Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    of your own or is there one on your desk at work?


    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    /\/\/ www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
    Chris Hills, Sep 29, 2006
    #1
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  2. Chris Hills

    Ian Collins Guest

    Chris Hills wrote:
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    > programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...
    >
    > I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    > standards).
    >
    > Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    > of your own or is there one on your desk at work?
    >

    Yes, both hard copy and PDF.

    --
    Ian Collins.
    Ian Collins, Sep 29, 2006
    #2
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  3. Chris Hills

    jacob navia Guest

    Chris Hills wrote:
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    > programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...
    >
    > I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    > standards).
    >
    > Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    > of your own or is there one on your desk at work?
    >
    >


    This will not work. Who will say in public

    "I do not have the standard's copy" ???

    This is a biased question. Everybody will swear you they have it
    and they read it every night... when they can't sleep.

    :)

    jacob
    jacob navia, Sep 29, 2006
    #3
  4. Chris Hills

    Jim Langston Guest

    "Chris Hills" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    > programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...
    >
    > I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    > standards).
    >
    > Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard of
    > your own or is there one on your desk at work?


    No, I don't have a copy of the standard for C or C++ and I think that most
    programmers don't.
    Jim Langston, Sep 29, 2006
    #4
  5. Chris Hills

    Chris Hills Guest

    In article <451d003b$0$27368$>, jacob navia
    <> writes
    >Chris Hills wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >> It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or
    >>C++ programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...
    >> I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    >>standards).
    >> Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language
    >>standard of your own or is there one on your desk at work?
    >>

    >
    >This will not work. Who will say in public
    >"I do not have the standard's copy" ???
    >This is a biased question. Everybody will swear you they have it
    >and they read it every night... when they can't sleep.


    I have asked this question in several places and the majority have said
    they do not have a copy of the language standard for c or C++

    Many have the K&R2 or the BS books but as far as most are concerned the
    compiler manuals are more important than the standard.

    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    /\/\/ www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
    Chris Hills, Sep 29, 2006
    #5
  6. Chris Hills

    Ron Natalie Guest

    Ian Collins wrote:

    > Yes, both hard copy and PDF.
    >


    I've got the PDF's for C90, C99, C++98 and C++03 on my laptop.
    I have never found the need for a hard copy.
    Ron Natalie, Sep 29, 2006
    #6
  7. Chris Hills

    Zara Guest

    On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:57:40 +0100, Chris Hills <>
    wrote:

    >
    >Hi,
    >
    >It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    >programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...
    >
    >I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    >standards).
    >
    >Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    >of your own or is there one on your desk at work?


    I have C++Std over my desk, and C99 3 meters away

    Zara
    Zara, Sep 29, 2006
    #7
  8. In article <>,
    Chris Hills <> wrote:
    >Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    >of your own or is there one on your desk at work?


    I have the C standards, but I rarely refer to them except when posting
    in comp.lang.c. If I need to look something up I'm more likely to use
    K&R or (for library functions) the unix man pages.

    -- Richard
    Richard Tobin, Sep 29, 2006
    #8
  9. Chris Hills

    loufoque Guest

    Chris Hills wrote :

    > It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    > programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...


    I only have the working drafts as PDFs that I read when I have doubts
    about some stuff.


    > I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    > standards).


    I think most advanced programmers that are actually interested in those
    languages have at least taken a few looks at it.
    loufoque, Sep 29, 2006
    #9
  10. Chris Hills

    Martin Steen Guest

    Chris Hills wrote:
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    > programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...


    No, I don't have it.

    I have the K&R-book (which I haven't used for years because I don't like
    it) and of course Bjarne Stroustrup's C++ book (an edition from 1992)
    and several other C and C++ books.

    Best regards, Martin
    Martin Steen, Sep 29, 2006
    #10
  11. Chris Hills

    Kai-Uwe Bux Guest

    Chris Hills wrote:

    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    > programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...
    >
    > I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    > standards).
    >
    > Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    > of your own or is there one on your desk at work?


    I have the 2003 pdf version for C++ and pdf of the 1989 draft of C.


    Best

    Kai-Uwe Bux
    Kai-Uwe Bux, Sep 29, 2006
    #11
  12. Chris Hills wrote:
    > [..]
    > I have asked this question in several places and the majority have
    > said they do not have a copy of the language standard for c or C++
    >
    > Many have the K&R2 or the BS books but as far as most are concerned
    > the compiler manuals are more important than the standard.


    Well, good for you! The knowledge of how many programmers have a copy
    of the Standard is about as useless as how many drivers have a copy
    of the statute on driving/vehicles for their country/state. What is
    it you're after?

    V
    --
    Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
    I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask
    Victor Bazarov, Sep 29, 2006
    #12
  13. Chris Hills said:

    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    > programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...


    Whoever claimed that would probably claim, when faced with a counter-example
    (of which there are many), that the counter-example is not a *true* C or
    C++ programmer! :)

    (All Scotsmen are engineers. Proof: the Enterprise's Scottie is an engineer.
    Counter-example: Dr Cameron is not an engineer. Resolution: Dr Cameron is
    not a true Scot.)


    > I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    > standards).


    Yes, the claim is nonsense. Even in comp.lang.c (which has a very
    disproportionately high number of Standard-reading C programmers), not
    everyone has a copy.

    > Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    > of your own or is there one on your desk at work?


    I have a copy myself, but most of the C programmers I've met over the last
    <cough>teen years do not, and I've never come across an employer or client
    who provides a reference copy, ever.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
    Richard Heathfield, Sep 29, 2006
    #13
  14. Chris Hills

    Ron Natalie Guest

    Martin Steen wrote:

    > I have the K&R-book (which I haven't used for years because I don't like
    > it) and of course Bjarne Stroustrup's C++ book (an edition from 1992)
    > and several other C and C++ books.
    >

    That's the second edition of Stroustrup. That's pretty pathetically out
    of date but useful for quaint historical use. I've got an old ARM
    around for the same reason.
    Ron Natalie, Sep 29, 2006
    #14
  15. Chris Hills

    Ron Natalie Guest


    >
    > Many have the K&R2 or the BS books but as far as most are concerned the
    > compiler manuals are more important than the standard.
    >


    The reason for the compiler manuals for me is more for things that
    are outside of C++ (operating system API's) which are usually
    documented there.

    I rarely use the compiler manual for C++ language issues (except
    to check if they are violating the standard). We write code
    that needs to work with different implementations. Even if you
    stick on one platform for a long time, the compilers (for example
    both Visual C++ and GCC exhibit this) tend to head towards the
    standards than away from it. By not understanding what constructs
    are legal C++, you are in a world of hurt when you ugrade and
    suddenly a lot of stuff no longer works.
    Ron Natalie, Sep 29, 2006
    #15
  16. In article <>,
    Richard Heathfield <> wrote:

    >(All Scotsmen are engineers. Proof: the Enterprise's Scottie is an engineer.
    >Counter-example: Dr Cameron is not an engineer. Resolution: Dr Cameron is
    >not a true Scot.)


    If Scottie's a Scotsman, I'm a Dutchman.

    -- Richard
    Richard Tobin, Sep 29, 2006
    #16
  17. On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:57:40 +0100, in comp.lang.c , Chris Hills
    <> wrote:

    >
    >Hi,
    >
    >It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    >programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...


    Did they say "a copy of the ISO standard" or a copy of ISO C? The
    difference to me would be that virtually anyone programming in C or
    C++ must have an ISO C compiler to hand (since virtually all compilers
    comply to some extent). On the other hand not everyone has a copy of
    the docment.

    >Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    >of your own or is there one on your desk at work?


    Yup, one of each.

    But then asking that in comp.lang.c is like asking if everyone at a
    butchers convention has cleavers. :)

    --
    Mark McIntyre

    "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
    Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
    by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
    --Brian Kernighan
    Mark McIntyre, Sep 29, 2006
    #17
  18. On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 13:15:06 +0200, in comp.lang.c , jacob navia
    <> wrote:

    >Chris Hills wrote:
    >>
    >> Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    >> of your own or is there one on your desk at work?
    >>
    >>

    >
    >This will not work. Who will say in public
    >"I do not have the standard's copy" ???


    Oh, heck, anyone who doesn't. Its not compulsory to own it. Asking in
    CLC or CLC++ is likely to result in a higher hitrate than asking in
    Sainsburys of course.

    Obviously it would be different if you were asking if we had a copy of
    C Unleashed... :)

    --
    Mark McIntyre

    "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
    Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
    by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
    --Brian Kernighan
    Mark McIntyre, Sep 29, 2006
    #18
  19. Chris Hills

    Gavin Deane Guest

    Re: Do you have the C or C++ standard? (serious question)

    Chris Hills wrote:
    > In article <451d003b$0$27368$>, jacob navia
    > <> writes
    > >Chris Hills wrote:
    > >> Hi,
    > >> It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or
    > >>C++ programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...
    > >> I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    > >>standards).
    > >> Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language
    > >>standard of your own or is there one on your desk at work?

    > I have asked this question in several places and the majority have said
    > they do not have a copy of the language standard for c or C++


    The majority I have met or worked with do not.

    > Many have the K&R2 or the BS books but as far as most are concerned the
    > compiler manuals are more important than the standard.


    That's probably at least in part because you tend to get the compiler
    manuals for free (the popular compilers and IDEs I've used install the
    manual at the same time as the compiler, so it is right there for me)
    whereas you have to go out of your way and spend money to get the
    language standard.

    The first C++ compiler I used professionally was MSVC++6. I anticipated
    that it wouldn't be the only one. I knew that few if any compilers
    implemented the language perfectly. Each would have its own gaps in
    coverage and non-standard behaviours. I knew that when I started to use
    a different compiler, there would be some things that worked a
    particular way in MSVC++6 that were different in the new compiler. But
    how to know in advance (highly preferable to painful learning through
    trial and error) what those things were going to be? MSVC++6 does not
    come with a list called "things we do differently from g++" and g++
    does not come with a list called "things we do differently from
    MSVC++6". However, both do come with their own list called "things we
    do differently from the formal C++ language specification". The lists
    are different for each of course. So the key is to know the formal C++
    language specification [*] so you have the right context to read the
    "things we differently" list provided by every compiler. By doing that
    I felt that, instead of being a potential big upheaval, changing
    compiler as often as needed could be a non-event.

    Gavin Deane

    [*] For which the only definitive source is the standard, and at $18 it
    seemed like a very good deal for a definitive source.
    Gavin Deane, Sep 29, 2006
    #19
  20. Chris Hills

    Roal Zanazzi Guest

    Chris Hills ha scritto:
    >
    > It came up in a standards panel meeting the other day that "all c or C++
    > programmers" have a copy of ISO C and/or C++ ...
    >
    > I challenged this and said most don't (outside those working on the
    > standards).
    >

    I tend to agree with you here.
    But I also think that most of the "gurus" in these neswgroups do have at
    least their respective language standards, either PDF or hard-copy.

    > Well, do most of you have a copy of the relevant ISO language standard
    > of your own or is there one on your desk at work?
    >

    I do not have it (C++), but maybe I'll buy the PDF one, to get rid of
    some of my ignorance on the language (mainly about undefined behaviour
    conditions).

    --
    Roal Zanazzi
    Roal Zanazzi, Sep 29, 2006
    #20
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