Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA

Discussion in 'Java' started by Clarence Blumstein, Apr 27, 2010.

  1. Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about
    to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when
    are a beginner?
     
    Clarence Blumstein, Apr 27, 2010
    #1
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  2. Clarence Blumstein

    Eric Sosman Guest

    On 4/27/2010 9:27 AM, Clarence Blumstein wrote:
    > Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about
    > to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when
    > are a beginner?


    Can't speak for others, but I wrote my early Java with an
    ordinary code editor, one I was already familiar with. That way,
    I could concentrate on learning Java rather than on learning how
    to operate the IDE. YMMV.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
     
    Eric Sosman, Apr 27, 2010
    #2
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  3. Clarence Blumstein

    Lew Guest

    Clarence Blumstein wrote:
    > Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about
    > to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when
    > are a beginner?


    Opinions vary. An IDE can be both a blessing and a curse to the
    student. It's a blessing because it lets you get productive earlier.
    It's a curse because it hides some information and can leave you
    wondering how and why things work. Or don't.

    I suggest using an IDE sometimes and using only the command line
    (including Ant) other times. Each will then illuminate the other and
    you will grow up to be ambidextrous with respect to using an IDE or
    not.

    Frequently when I develop a project I maintain the Ant build.xml
    manually and alternate between IDE builds and command-line builds to
    ensure that both work equally well.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Apr 27, 2010
    #3
  4. Clarence Blumstein

    Stefan Ram Guest

    Clarence Blumstein <> writes:
    >Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA?


    No, when you are learning Java, I would never
    dare to disturb you by suggesting an IDE!
     
    Stefan Ram, Apr 27, 2010
    #4
  5. Clarence Blumstein

    cr88192 Guest

    "Clarence Blumstein" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about
    > to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when
    > are a beginner?


    if you are new to programming in general, an IDE can help, as they provide a
    lot of little things which can be helpful.

    but, for Java in particular, the IDE is not particularly important, and one
    can easily write code in plain text editors if they want. it depends a lot
    on personal preferences and experience.


    as for myself, well, I didn't start out with Java (it didn't really exist
    yet).
    I used IDEs some (TurboC / BorlandC), but in those days it didn't help much
    (glorified text editor...), and eventually I just ended up managing files
    manually via the DOS-prompt (and using "MS Edit").

    anymore, I typically just do coding (in general) via the mix of Notepad,
    Explorer, and a command prompt (and typically GNU Make for building). not
    that there is anything noble about this, only that this approach just better
    suits my uses and personal experience (there are pros and cons to IDEs).

    my projects are also largish and mixed language (and largely C), and I use
    some amount of "custom tooling", which may also be a factor, ...

    (there are no uniformly "better" options in all this, only endless numbers
    of costs and benefits).


    but, for learning, an IDE is likely to be somewhat helpful, as it provides a
    lot of things which could be otherwise awkward to do by hand.


    or such...
     
    cr88192, Apr 27, 2010
    #5
  6. Clarence Blumstein

    markspace Guest

    Clarence Blumstein wrote:
    > Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about
    > to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when
    > are a beginner?



    Yes, I do. Learning to use an IDE is part of learning how to program.
    There are lots of little time saving enhancements with an IDE that you
    should learn, and those enhancements will help you learn faster as well
    as be more productive later in your profession. It's win-win.

    A few years ago I would have said "no, just use a text editor" like
    several others here, but these days an IDE is so valuable that it should
    be part of your basic learning. (A few years ago, you would have used
    shell scripting too as part of your basic learning, because the shell
    tools were so important to being productive as a programmer. My first
    class at university for C was titled "C and the Unix Shell.")

    Eventually, you should learn the command line tools, but learning the
    command line tools (and Ant) is different than entering code, and the
    latter is what you will be mostly doing as you learn. An IDE is the
    best tool to help you enter code.
     
    markspace, Apr 27, 2010
    #6
  7. Clarence Blumstein

    David Segall Guest

    Clarence Blumstein <> wrote:

    >Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about
    >to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when
    >are a beginner?


    An emphatic yes! Your first step should be to compile and run the
    usual "Hello World" application without using an IDE. After that an
    IDE provides a tutor that looks over your shoulder as you write and
    test your programs. I would suggest Netbeans instead of Eclipse as a
    tutor. On the other hand, Eclipse and its derivatives are far more
    popular than Netbeans so if you are looking for a job, Eclipse
    experience may be more valuable.
     
    David Segall, Apr 27, 2010
    #7
  8. Clarence Blumstein

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Clarence Blumstein wrote:

    > Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA?


    No. You have enough to learn without also having to master an IDE.

    You should definitely have a good programmer's editor, though. On Windows,
    Notepad2, Notepad++, or EditPad Lite. On OS X, TextWrangler. On unix with
    GNOME, gedit. On unix with KDE, i have yet to find one. jEdit is in java,
    so that will work on any platform.

    Basically, what you want is a plain text editor that does auto-indentation
    and line numbering (or at least a jump-to-line command). You'll go
    completely mad without those.

    On top of that, syntax highlighting is nice, structure awareness (so you
    get an outline or a dropdown menu of the methods in a class which you can
    jump to) is nice, fancy editing shortcuts (for things like deleting the
    whole current line, moving the selected lines up or down in the file,
    indenting or outdenting the selected lines, etc) are nice.

    Things you don't want now are autocompletion (because you won't learn the
    API), automated compilation (because you won't learn the compiler), and
    any enforced notions of project setup (because you'll have to struggle
    with it for ages before you can write a single line of code, and even when
    you get it working, you won't learn how to set up a project).

    > because I'm about to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA?


    Good luck.

    > Did you using IDE while/when are a beginner?


    No.

    tom

    --
    Get my pies out of the oven!
     
    Tom Anderson, Apr 27, 2010
    #8
  9. Clarence Blumstein

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Stefan Ram wrote:

    > Clarence Blumstein <> writes:
    >> Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA?

    >
    > No, when you are learning Java, I would never
    > dare to disturb you by suggesting an IDE!


    :)

    tom

    --
    Get my pies out of the oven!
     
    Tom Anderson, Apr 27, 2010
    #9
  10. Clarence Blumstein

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, cr88192 wrote:

    > anymore, I typically just do coding (in general) via the mix of Notepad,
    > Explorer, and a command prompt (and typically GNU Make for building).
    > not that there is anything noble about this, only that this approach
    > just better suits my uses and personal experience (there are pros and
    > cons to IDEs).
    >
    > my projects are also largish and mixed language (and largely C), and I
    > use some amount of "custom tooling", which may also be a factor, ...


    Oh, it's *all about* the custom tooling.

    When i was younger, i used to maintain a store of useful classes and
    functions, a sort of personal subroutine library i could apply to
    different projects. As i got older, i stopped; i learned to be able to do
    the things it could do using the standard library or easily available
    third-party libraries, or just got to the point where i could whip them up
    from scratch every time without difficulty. But now, what i have is a
    growing collection of custom tooling - scripts for this, templates for
    that, ant jobs for the other. I wonder if i'll outgrow that too, and if
    so, what will come next?

    tom

    --
    Get my pies out of the oven!
     
    Tom Anderson, Apr 27, 2010
    #10
  11. Clarence Blumstein

    Lew Guest

    cr88192 wrote:
    > anymore, I typically just do coding (in general) via the mix of Notepad,


    Notepad is very bad for Java programming because most extant versions
    don't handle Unicode and they don't like cross-platform line endings.

    > Explorer, and a command prompt (and typically GNU Make for building). not


    And Gnu make is useless for Java.

    > that there is anything noble about this, only that this approach just better
    > suits my uses and personal experience (there are pros and cons to IDEs).
    >


    I am a big fan of command-line project deployment, but those tools you
    mention are not very useful for Java.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Apr 27, 2010
    #11
  12. Clarence Blumstein

    Jim Janney Guest

    Clarence Blumstein <> writes:

    > Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about
    > to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when
    > are a beginner?


    Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you're preparing for
    a job interview, using a text editor will force you to learn the kinds
    of things that people are likely to ask you about. And if you're a
    beginning programmer there's some value in learning how to do
    everything by hand.

    But if you're an experienced programmer who simply wants to get
    productive in a new language, then an IDE is the better choice. As
    careful examination of this message may indicate, I like to use GNU
    Emacs for, well, just about everything, but I use Eclipse for Java
    programming. Eclipse has a Java compiler built into it, which gives
    it a deep knowledge of the code that Emacs simply can't match.
    Learning to use the refactoring and code assists not only saves typing
    but cuts down on silly mistakes. And there's really no good reason to
    maintain import lists by hand.

    --
    Jim Janney
     
    Jim Janney, Apr 27, 2010
    #12
  13. Clarence Blumstein

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 27-04-2010 09:27, Clarence Blumstein wrote:
    > Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about
    > to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when
    > are a beginner?


    My recommendation is to spend the first months using just
    an ordinary text editor and command line tools for building
    and running.

    That will give you a good understanding of how things
    actually work.

    Then when you know all that stuff, then switch to a
    professional grade IDE (Eclipse and NetBeans are free)
    and be more productive by letting that do some of the
    boring work.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Apr 27, 2010
    #13
  14. Clarence Blumstein

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 27-04-2010 14:55, Lew wrote:
    > cr88192 wrote:
    >> anymore, I typically just do coding (in general) via the mix of Notepad,

    >
    > Notepad is very bad for Java programming because most extant versions
    > don't handle Unicode and they don't like cross-platform line endings.


    Notepad has supported Unicode since at least Windows XP from 2002.

    There are no such a thing as cross-platform line endings.

    It is true that notepad only supports the Windows CR LF, which
    means that it does not work when text files are moved as binary
    files from *nix.

    But instead of blaming notepad then people should transfer the
    files correctly.

    >> Explorer, and a command prompt (and typically GNU Make for building). not

    >
    > And Gnu make is useless for Java.


    At least it does not provide any benefits that a script does
    not, because the dependency stuff does not work with Java.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Apr 27, 2010
    #14
  15. Clarence Blumstein, Apr 28, 2010
    #15
  16. Tom Anderson wrote:
    > On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Clarence Blumstein wrote:
    >
    >> Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA?

    >
    > No. You have enough to learn without also having to master an IDE.
    >
    > You should definitely have a good programmer's editor, though. On
    > Windows, Notepad2, Notepad++, or EditPad Lite.o


    Or gvim, which is my favorite when I'm not using an IDE. It doesn't number
    lines [1], but does display the line number you're on, and does syntax
    highlighting. It also has the full power of vi in addition to leting you
    use the mouse.

    1. That I know of, anyway.
     
    Mike Schilling, Apr 28, 2010
    #16
  17. Clarence Blumstein

    P. Lepin Guest

    OT gvim line numbering WAS: Re: Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA

    Mike Schilling wrote:
    > Tom Anderson wrote:
    >> On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Clarence Blumstein wrote:
    >>> Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA?

    >>
    >> You should definitely have a good programmer's editor, though. On
    >> Windows, Notepad2, Notepad++, or EditPad Lite.o

    >
    > Or gvim, which is my favorite when I'm not using an IDE. It doesn't
    > number lines [1], but does display the line number you're on, and does
    > syntax highlighting.
    >
    > 1. That I know of, anyway.


    :set number

    gvim is a bit of nethack among the editors, in that it seems to have
    everything, including the kitchen sink, if you're willing to look for it.

    What really shocked me, though, is that it does have autocompletion. Now
    that's just sick.

    --
    P. Lepin
     
    P. Lepin, Apr 28, 2010
    #17
  18. Clarence Blumstein

    Pitch Guest

    In article <d0c1f722-4bec-4728-81a2-22d91d57d4d8
    @p35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, says...
    >
    > Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA? because I'm about
    > to using Eclipse when I'm learning JAVA? Did you using IDE while/when
    > are a beginner?


    Use an IDE and a tutorial. If you get stuck ask here. Plenty of people
    will know beginner's stuff.


    --
    stirr your cofee properly
     
    Pitch, Apr 28, 2010
    #18
  19. On 27/04/2010 19:12, Tom Anderson wrote:
    > On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Clarence Blumstein wrote:
    >
    >> Do you suggest me using IDE when I'm learning JAVA?

    >
    > No. You have enough to learn without also having to master an IDE.
    >
    > You should definitely have a good programmer's editor, though. On
    > Windows, Notepad2, Notepad++, or EditPad Lite. On OS X, TextWrangler. On
    > unix with GNOME, gedit. On unix with KDE, i have yet to find one. jEdit
    > is in java, so that will work on any platform.


    If you expect to use more than one of those platforms it may be worth
    learning an editor that is available for all those platforms.

    I'm pretty sure both of the one-true-editor are available for all those
    platforms, with and without GUI trappings.

    --
    RGB
     
    RedGrittyBrick, Apr 28, 2010
    #19
  20. Clarence Blumstein

    Tom Anderson Guest

    On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Arne Vajh?j wrote:

    > On 27-04-2010 14:55, Lew wrote:
    >> cr88192 wrote:
    >>> anymore, I typically just do coding (in general) via the mix of Notepad,

    >>
    >> Notepad is very bad for Java programming because most extant versions
    >> don't handle Unicode and they don't like cross-platform line endings.

    >
    > Notepad has supported Unicode since at least Windows XP from 2002.
    >
    > There are no such a thing as cross-platform line endings.
    >
    > It is true that notepad only supports the Windows CR LF, which
    > means that it does not work when text files are moved as binary
    > files from *nix.
    >
    > But instead of blaming notepad then people should transfer the
    > files correctly.


    Rubbish. Should they unpack every jar they move across and see if it has
    text files in, so they can convert them? Should they then have to
    magically re-sign any sealed packages whose contents have changed?

    What they should do is just use a text editor which copes with all three
    line endings. Plenty do this.

    tom

    --
    IMPORTANCE MEMO: >>> WHEN YOU BUY AN N-GAGE QD <<< PLEASE, please CONTINUE
    TO TALK ON THE SIDE!!$ Note: the other party will not be able to hear you,
    BUT WHO REALLY CRAPS A THING, SIDETALKIN' 2009++!!!
     
    Tom Anderson, Apr 28, 2010
    #20
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