Documentation hiding

Discussion in 'Java' started by Roedy Green, Jul 10, 2010.

  1. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.

    e.g.
    // used to be:
    http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/extra/regex/quant.html
    // now:
    http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17409_01/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/quant.html

    The Guides seem to have disappeared. They used to be part of the JDK.
    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com

    You encapsulate not just to save typing, but more importantly, to make it easy and safe to change the code later, since you then need change the logic in only one place. Without it, you might fail to change the logic in all the places it occurs.
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 10, 2010
    #1
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  2. Roedy Green wrote:
    > Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    > it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.
    >
    > e.g.
    > // used to be:
    > http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/extra/regex/quant.html
    > // now:
    > http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17409_01/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/quant.html
    >
    > The Guides seem to have disappeared. They used to be part of the JDK.


    I don't think they're doing it on purpose. They've always had a fairly
    crappy website, so it's only fair that the Sun documentation also gets
    the treatment.

    AHS

    --
    The warning message we sent the Russians was a calculated ambiguity that
    would be clearly understood.
    -- Alexander Haig
     
    Arved Sandstrom, Jul 10, 2010
    #2
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  3. Roedy Green

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 10-07-2010 09:22, Roedy Green wrote:
    > Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    > it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.
    >
    > e.g.
    > // used to be:
    > http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/extra/regex/quant.html
    > // now:
    > http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17409_01/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/quant.html
    >
    > The Guides seem to have disappeared. They used to be part of the JDK.


    The URL's should not matter much.

    The reason behind the URL's are probably the use of some
    portal/CMS system.

    Obviously everything should be there, but I would expect
    it to eventually be there - but when moving huge web sites
    around, then a few things can be forgotten.

    I suggest you inform the web master about the problem.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Jul 10, 2010
    #3
  4. Roedy Green

    Stefan Ram Guest

    Arne Vajhøj <> writes:
    >The URL's should not matter much.


    Yes, but:

    »Cool URIs Don't Change«

    http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/uri

    Now, suddenly thousands of link collections are partially
    invalidated and many hours are spend to update links all
    around the world without any additional benefit.

    >The reason behind the URL's are probably the use of some
    >portal/CMS system.


    That should not be an excuse. After all, the software should
    follow and implement the policies chosen by humans. Humans
    should not instead follow and implement what their software
    requires. A capable engineer should be able to implement any
    wanted URI naming scheme with a CMS.
     
    Stefan Ram, Jul 10, 2010
    #4
  5. Roedy Green

    Jeff Higgins Guest

    On 7/10/2010 11:54 AM, Stefan Ram wrote:
    > Arne Vajhøj<> writes:
    >> The URL's should not matter much.

    >
    > Yes, but:
    >
    > »Cool URIs Don't Change«
    >
    > http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/uri



    Multiple Choices
    Now that is hilarious.


    >
    > Now, suddenly thousands of link collections are partially
    > invalidated and many hours are spend to update links all
    > around the world without any additional benefit.
    >
    >> The reason behind the URL's are probably the use of some
    >> portal/CMS system.

    >
    > That should not be an excuse. After all, the software should
    > follow and implement the policies chosen by humans. Humans
    > should not instead follow and implement what their software
    > requires. A capable engineer should be able to implement any
    > wanted URI naming scheme with a CMS.
    >
     
    Jeff Higgins, Jul 10, 2010
    #5
  6. "Roedy Green" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    > it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.
    >
    > e.g.
    > // used to be:
    > http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/extra/regex/quant.html
    > // now:
    > http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17409_01/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/quant.html


    The Java serialization specification, for instance, is now hidden at
    http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/.../docs/guide/serialization/spec/serialTOC.html .
    I was able to find it only by using the obscure technique of googling for
    Java serialization specification.
     
    Mike Schilling, Jul 10, 2010
    #6
  7. Roedy Green

    Lew Guest

    Roedy Green wrote...
    >> Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    >> it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.


    Do you have *any* shred of evidence that that's the purpose?

    >> e.g.
    >> // used to be:
    >> http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/extra/regex/quant.html
    >> // now:
    >> http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17409_01/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/quant.html


    Mike Schilling wrote:
    > The Java serialization specification, for instance, is now hidden at
    > http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/.../docs/guide/serialization/spec/serialTOC.html
    > . I was able to find it only by using the obscure technique of googling
    > for Java serialization specification.


    For months now, Oracle has warned us:
    "Oracle is reviewing the Sun product roadmap and will provide guidance to
    customers in accordance with Oracle's standard product communication policies.
    Any resulting features and timing of release of such features as determined by
    Oracle's review of roadmaps, are at the sole discretion of Oracle. All product
    roadmap information, whether communicated by Sun Microsystems or by Oracle,
    does not represent a commitment to deliver any material, code, or
    functionality, and should not be relied upon in making purchasing decisions.
    It is intended for information purposes only, and may not be incorporated into
    any contract."

    So what, we expected that meant Oracle was not going to rearrange the web site
    in accordance with their standard product communication policies?

    As for finding the serialization specification, you don't even need Google.
    The third hit on the "search.sun.com" site itself, entering "serialization
    specification" in the search box on http://java.sun.com/ itself, is
    <http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/serialization/spec/serialTOC.html>
    which, guess what? redirects to
    <http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17476_01/javase/1.5.0/docs/guide/serialization/spec/serialTOC.html>

    Yeah, Oracle's trying reeeaaaal hard to hide the information when the old link
    leads you right to the new one.

    Just for shites and giggles I entered "tutorial regex" in the search box on
    java.sun.com. The first hit is
    <http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/essential/regex/>
    which redirects to
    <http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17409_01/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/>

    Likewise,
    <http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/essential/regex/quant.html>
    (the very first link in a java.sun.com search for "tutorial regex quantifiers"
    and the natural extension of the above link) redirects to
    <http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E17409_01/javase/tutorial/essential/regex/quant.html>

    Hmm, that's the very link Roedy claims to be "strange" and "hard to find".
    It's also the one from the "Quantifiers" anchor tag in the main regex tutorial
    page.

    Looks like
    <http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/extra/regex/quant.html>
    was an incorrect URL in the first place. Chalk that one up to operator error
    rather than evil Oracle's nefarious misdeeds.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Jul 10, 2010
    #7
  8. On 10-07-2010 13:13, Lew wrote:
    > Roedy Green wrote...
    >>> Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    >>> it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.

    >
    > Do you have *any* shred of evidence that that's the purpose?


    I think that is what is generally known as a conspiracy theory.

    And those does not come with evidence. And typical the people
    that bring them up are not even looking for evidence.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Jul 10, 2010
    #8
  9. Roedy Green

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 10-07-2010 11:54, Stefan Ram wrote:
    > Arne Vajhøj<> writes:
    >> The URL's should not matter much.

    >
    > Yes, but:
    >
    > »Cool URIs Don't Change«
    >
    > http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/uri
    >
    > Now, suddenly thousands of link collections are partially
    > invalidated and many hours are spend to update links all
    > around the world without any additional benefit.


    Keeping URL's is good.

    But in case of a merger like this, then a change is almost
    unavoidable. One of the things Oracle paid all that money for
    is for the Java name. They want something for that money.

    >
    >> The reason behind the URL's are probably the use of some
    >> portal/CMS system.

    >
    > That should not be an excuse. After all, the software should
    > follow and implement the policies chosen by humans. Humans
    > should not instead follow and implement what their software
    > requires. A capable engineer should be able to implement any
    > wanted URI naming scheme with a CMS.


    It is not practical to have the CMS internally use the old
    URL's.

    Of course they could rewrite all URL's from old to new.

    But apparantly they decided not to bother with that.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Jul 10, 2010
    #9
  10. Roedy Green

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:13:58 -0400, Lew <> wrote,
    quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

    >>> Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    >>> it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.

    >
    >Do you have *any* shred of evidence that that's the purpose?


    Ok, "Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and
    giving it strange new URLs THAT make it hard to find the new docs."

    I was just teasing Oracle, giving them benefit of the doubt their
    incompetence had some purpose to it. Each nation has its own humour
    templates. This is a pretty common idiom in Canada. Use of the smiley
    is not. The whole point is to slip the humour in slyly so that only a
    few catch it. Then those that get it feel pleasure at their
    cleverness. It is supposed to be almost undetectable to everyone
    else.





    --
    Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
    http://mindprod.com

    You encapsulate not just to save typing, but more importantly, to make it easy and safe to change the code later, since you then need change the logic in only one place. Without it, you might fail to change the logic in all the places it occurs.
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 11, 2010
    #10
  11. Roedy Green

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    On 10-07-2010 21:04, Roedy Green wrote:
    > On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 13:13:58 -0400, Lew<> wrote,
    > quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
    >
    >>>> Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    >>>> it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.

    >>
    >> Do you have *any* shred of evidence that that's the purpose?

    >
    > Ok, "Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and
    > giving it strange new URLs THAT make it hard to find the new docs."
    >
    > I was just teasing Oracle, giving them benefit of the doubt their
    > incompetence had some purpose to it. Each nation has its own humour
    > templates. This is a pretty common idiom in Canada. Use of the smiley
    > is not. The whole point is to slip the humour in slyly so that only a
    > few catch it. Then those that get it feel pleasure at their
    > cleverness. It is supposed to be almost undetectable to everyone
    > else.


    Do they have training classes in Canada on "How to communicate
    on the internet with people from different cultures by not
    assuming everybody is exactly like people in Smallville Canada" ?

    :)

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Jul 11, 2010
    #11
  12. Roedy Green

    Lew Guest

    Roedy Green wrote:
    >>>> Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    >>>> it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.


    Lew said:
    >> Do you have *any* shred of evidence that that's the purpose?

    >
    > Ok, "Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and
    > giving it strange new URLs THAT make it hard to find the new docs."


    Roedy Green wrote:
    > I was just teasing Oracle, giving them benefit of the doubt their
    > incompetence had some purpose to it. Each nation has its own humour
    > templates. This is a pretty common idiom in Canada. Use of the smiley
    > is not. The whole point is to slip the humour in slyly so that only a
    > few catch it. Then those that get it feel pleasure at their
    > cleverness. It is supposed to be almost undetectable to everyone
    > else.


    I guess I'm not clever. It doesn't help the joke that the premise is false
    that the Java documentation on Oracle's site is hard to find.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Jul 11, 2010
    #12
  13. On 07/11/2010 05:02 AM, Lew wrote:

    > Roedy Green wrote:
    >> I was just teasing Oracle, giving them benefit of the doubt their
    >> incompetence had some purpose to it. Each nation has its own humour
    >> templates. This is a pretty common idiom in Canada. Use of the smiley
    >> is not. The whole point is to slip the humour in slyly so that only a
    >> few catch it. Then those that get it feel pleasure at their
    >> cleverness. It is supposed to be almost undetectable to everyone
    >> else.

    >
    > I guess I'm not clever. It doesn't help the joke that the premise is
    > false that the Java documentation on Oracle's site is hard to find.


    Oh, come on. Loosen up. It has nothing to do with cleverness. Either you
    get the joke (or humorous remark for that matter), or you don't. And
    that's about it. Roedy's cleverness remark was yet another example of
    such remark. At least to me it was, and I'm not even Canadian.

    I know quite a few very clever and intelligent people with the sense of
    humor comparable to that of your average Henny Youngman (which is to say
    none).
     
    Screamin Lord Byron, Jul 11, 2010
    #13
  14. "Screamin Lord Byron" <> wrote in message
    news:i1cju3$1hb$...
    > On 07/11/2010 05:02 AM, Lew wrote:
    >
    >> Roedy Green wrote:
    >>> I was just teasing Oracle, giving them benefit of the doubt their
    >>> incompetence had some purpose to it. Each nation has its own humour
    >>> templates. This is a pretty common idiom in Canada. Use of the smiley
    >>> is not. The whole point is to slip the humour in slyly so that only a
    >>> few catch it. Then those that get it feel pleasure at their
    >>> cleverness. It is supposed to be almost undetectable to everyone
    >>> else.

    >>
    >> I guess I'm not clever. It doesn't help the joke that the premise is
    >> false that the Java documentation on Oracle's site is hard to find.

    >
    > Oh, come on. Loosen up. It has nothing to do with cleverness. Either you
    > get the joke (or humorous remark for that matter), or you don't. And
    > that's about it. Roedy's cleverness remark was yet another example of
    > such remark. At least to me it was, and I'm not even Canadian.
    >
    > I know quite a few very clever and intelligent people with the sense of
    > humor comparable to that of your average Henny Youngman (which is to say
    > none).


    Take Java. Please.
    >
     
    Mike Schilling, Jul 11, 2010
    #14
  15. Roedy Green

    Lew Guest

    On 07/11/2010 10:19 AM,
    > On 07/11/2010 05:02 AM,


    Roedy Green wrote:
    >>> I was just teasing Oracle, giving them benefit of the doubt their
    >>> incompetence had some purpose to it. Each nation has its own humour
    >>> templates. This is a pretty common idiom in Canada. Use of the smiley
    >>> is not. The whole point is to slip the humour in slyly so that only a
    >>> few catch it. Then those that get it feel pleasure at their
    >>> cleverness. It is supposed to be almost undetectable to everyone
    >>> else.


    Lew wrote:
    >> I guess I'm not clever. It doesn't help the joke that the premise is
    >> false that the Java documentation on Oracle's site is hard to find.


    Screamin Lord Byron wrote:
    > Oh, come on. Loosen up. It has nothing to do with cleverness. Either you
    > get the joke (or humorous remark for that matter), or you don't. And
    > that's about it. Roedy's cleverness remark was yet another example of
    > such remark. At least to me it was, and I'm not even Canadian.
    >
    > I know quite a few very clever and intelligent people with the sense of
    > humor comparable to that of your average Henny Youngman (which is to say
    > none).


    Apparently you missed the dry humor (or humour) in my remark, wherein I
    playfully picked up on the dry insult from Roedy, humorously (or humourously)
    intended of course (and didn't that make me feel clever for catching it!), and
    reflected it back just a drily humorously (or humourously), then drove to the
    point he was really making about inaccessibility of information on the former
    java.sun.com, and refuted it.

    Methinks 'tis thou who needs must lighten up, o Screamin Lord Byron.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Jul 11, 2010
    #15
  16. Roedy Green

    David Lamb Guest

    On 10/07/2010 4:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    > On 10-07-2010 13:13, Lew wrote:
    >> Roedy Green wrote...
    >>>> Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    >>>> it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.

    >>
    >> Do you have *any* shred of evidence that that's the purpose?

    >
    > I think that is what is generally known as a conspiracy theory.


    Sometime's it's just a cynical way of speaking, as in "X did Y with the
    result Z" becoming "X did Y (in order) to Z.
     
    David Lamb, Jul 11, 2010
    #16
  17. Roedy Green

    Lew Guest

    Roedy Green wrote...
    >>>>> Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    >>>>> it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.


    Lew wrote:
    >>> Do you have *any* shred of evidence that that's the purpose?


    Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    >> I think that is what is generally known as a conspiracy theory.


    David Lamb wrote:
    > Sometime's it's just a cynical way of speaking, as in "X did Y with the
    > result Z" becoming "X did Y (in order) to Z.


    Which begs the question of whether X actually did Y. In this particular
    instance they did not, nor did Z result.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Jul 11, 2010
    #17
  18. On 07/11/2010 06:37 PM, Lew wrote:
    > On 07/11/2010 10:19 AM,
    >> On 07/11/2010 05:02 AM,

    >
    > Roedy Green wrote:
    >>>> I was just teasing Oracle, giving them benefit of the doubt their
    >>>> incompetence had some purpose to it. Each nation has its own humour
    >>>> templates. This is a pretty common idiom in Canada. Use of the smiley
    >>>> is not. The whole point is to slip the humour in slyly so that only a
    >>>> few catch it. Then those that get it feel pleasure at their
    >>>> cleverness. It is supposed to be almost undetectable to everyone
    >>>> else.

    >
    > Lew wrote:
    >>> I guess I'm not clever. It doesn't help the joke that the premise is
    >>> false that the Java documentation on Oracle's site is hard to find.

    >
    > Screamin Lord Byron wrote:
    >> Oh, come on. Loosen up. It has nothing to do with cleverness.

    >
    >
    > Apparently you missed the dry humor (or humour) in my remark


    Oh, thank God, but I must admit I still don't get it. :) It's OK though,
    as long as no one feels offended.

    throw new InvalidHumourCultureException();
     
    Screamin Lord Byron, Jul 12, 2010
    #18
  19. On 11-07-2010 13:53, David Lamb wrote:
    > On 10/07/2010 4:48 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
    >> On 10-07-2010 13:13, Lew wrote:
    >>> Roedy Green wrote...
    >>>>> Oracle has been pulling documentation off the Sun website and giving
    >>>>> it strange new URLs to make it hard to find the new docs.
    >>>
    >>> Do you have *any* shred of evidence that that's the purpose?

    >>
    >> I think that is what is generally known as a conspiracy theory.

    >
    > Sometime's it's just a cynical way of speaking, as in "X did Y with the
    > result Z" becoming "X did Y (in order) to Z.


    Possible.

    But communication is often easier if people write what they mean
    instead of something that may make the reader guess what they mean.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Jul 13, 2010
    #19
  20. Roedy Green

    Lew Guest

    Screamin Lord Byron wrote ...
    > > I know quite a few very clever and intelligent people with the sense of
    > > humor comparable to that of your average Henny Youngman (which is to say
    > > none).

    >



    Mike Schilling wrote:
    > Take Java.  Please.
    >


    Oracle actually announced the document move:
    <http://blogs.sun.com/thejavatutorials/entry/
    new_release_of_java_tutorial>

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Jul 13, 2010
    #20
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