Does the Python community really follow the philospy of "CommunityMatters?"

Discussion in 'Python' started by r, Jan 30, 2009.

  1. r

    r Guest

    I been around the list for a while and rubbed sholders with some
    pythonistas(some you would not beleieve if i told you) and i just
    don't see a community spirit here.

    Where are the community projects supporting Python? -- besides the
    core devlopment. Seem s that nobody is interested unless their pay-pal
    account is involved. I find this all quite disappointing.

    Also if anyone dares to mention that Python is a great language or
    better in this reguard or that, they get jumped and beat to death by
    their "so-called" brothers.

    AKAIK there is a group for every languge out there. C, Perl, Java,
    Ruby, etc, etc. This is comp.lang.python, if you don't like it, hang
    out in "comp.lang.whatever". Don't tell me or anybody "Comparing
    Python -> Perl is not allowed here!".
    r, Jan 30, 2009
    #1
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  2. Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    > Where are the community projects supporting Python? -- besides the
    > core devlopment.


    http://pypi.python.org/pypi

    ....which accidentally says "There are currently 5597 packages here."
    Not bad uh?



    --- Giampaolo
    http://code.google.com/p/pyftpdlib
    Giampaolo Rodola', Jan 30, 2009
    #2
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  3. r

    alex23 Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Jan 30, 10:21 am, r <> wrote:
    > I been around the list for a while and rubbed sholders with some
    > pythonistas(some you would not beleieve if i told you) and i just
    > don't see a community spirit here.


    Seriously, how -old- are you? Twelve? Thirteen?
    alex23, Jan 30, 2009
    #3
  4. r

    r Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Jan 29, 9:01 pm, alex23 <> wrote:
    > Seriously, how -old- are you? Twelve? Thirteen?


    Ah, my good friend alex23.
    Somehow -- when i was writing this post -- i knew you would drop in
    and i swear i do not have any ESP abilities -- somehow i just knew.

    While your here why don't we take a walk down memory lane. Let's go
    back to our first encounter -- Yes, that crazy thread(i won't utter
    the title here). Seems i was promoting the inclusion of the Python
    language in a revolutionary and promising application and you were
    very upset about it. Why, i really don't know because you never told
    me. The only thing i can remember is you wishing me dead -- if i
    recall your wish was to cut off oxygen supply to my brain.

    I can't help but wonder of the devious thoughts that toil away in your
    demented little mind right now. Of what demise shall i suffer this
    time alex23. But please alex, at least -try- to be a little more
    creative, if i am to meet my end, i would hate for it to be some worn-
    out old cliche'
    r, Jan 30, 2009
    #4
  5. r

    r Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Jan 29, 6:21 pm, r <> wrote:
    > Also if anyone dares to mention that Python is a great language or
    > better in this reguard or that, they get jumped and beat to death by
    > their "so-called" brothers.


    This observation leads me to two scientific and common sense synopsis.
    Either nobody here gives a rats pa'toote about Python, and/or they are
    all just a bunch of gutless worms too afraid to stand up to the 10 or
    so Perl/Ruby leeches who's infestation slowly drains the life-blood
    out of the Python Community, keeping it too weak to fight back.
    <dospesos>
    r, Jan 30, 2009
    #5
  6. r

    James Mills Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 3:38 PM, r <> wrote:
    > This observation leads me to two scientific and common sense synopsis.
    > Either nobody here gives a rats pa'toote about Python, and/or they are
    > all just a bunch of gutless worms too afraid to stand up to the 10 or
    > so Perl/Ruby leeches who's infestation slowly drains the life-blood
    > out of the Python Community, keeping it too weak to fight back.
    > <dospesos>


    I for one am not e member of either the Perl or Ruby
    fan club - and I don't think I will ever be :) However I"m not
    going to go and start bagging those languages :) I prefer Python!

    I think you'll find a 3rd scenario:

    Python developers (those that develop Python)
    and Python programmers (those that use Python)
    just don't really care about politics, protest and
    all the rubbish that goes on in this list :)

    cheers
    James
    James Mills, Jan 30, 2009
    #6
  7. r

    r Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Jan 29, 11:53 pm, James Mills <> wrote:
    > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 3:38 PM, r <> wrote:
    > > This observation leads me to two scientific and common sense synopsis.
    > > Either nobody here gives a rats pa'toote about Python, and/or they are
    > > all just a bunch of gutless worms too afraid to stand up to the 10 or
    > > so Perl/Ruby leeches who's infestation slowly drains the life-blood
    > > out of the Python Community, keeping it too weak to fight back.
    > > <dospesos>

    >
    > I for one am not e member of either the Perl or Ruby
    > fan club - and I don't think I will ever be :) However I"m not
    > going to go and start bagging those languages :) I prefer Python!
    >
    > I think you'll find a 3rd scenario:
    >
    > Python developers (those that develop Python)
    > and Python programmers (those that use Python)
    > just don't really care about politics, protest and
    > all the rubbish that goes on in this list :)
    >
    > cheers
    > James


    I totally agree James. I not saying anybody should just go around
    bashing this or that language, but i have seen many a ruffled feather
    at the mere mention of Python's greatness. I could understand if
    someone went over to the Perl group and started parroting off "Python
    rules!, Perl sucks!". This should be condemned. But i have also seen
    at this group very viscous attacks on people who just simply think
    Python is a good language and want to tell their Python friends how
    happy they are -- myself included.

    People would call a happy user of Python a fanboy or a Python zealot.
    This blows me away in the context of this group. check out this
    thread:
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp...en&lnk=gst&q=python is great#6195c98209dcc852

    Here a happy python user shared his thoughts on the Python language.
    He compared Python as "more readable" than Perl and by god he is right
    about that, no sane person can honestly deny this fact. But like
    always some angry responses and warnings followed that this person
    should not criticize Perl, and veil threats were cast.

    This is the madness i refer too.
    r, Jan 30, 2009
    #7
  8. r

    John Machin Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Jan 30, 5:24 pm, r <> wrote:
    [snip]
    > This blows me away in the context of this group. check out this
    > thread:http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/...
    >
    > Here a happy python user shared his thoughts on the Python language.
    > He compared Python as "more readable" than Perl and by god he is right
    > about that, no sane person can honestly deny this fact. But like
    > always some angry responses and warnings followed that this person
    > should not criticize Perl, and veil threats were cast.
    >
    > This is the madness i refer too.


    Clicking on that link leads me to a 14-message thread in which the
    meat relates to Joe Stroud's problems with py2app, and there is only
    one reference to perl:

    Joe says: """No, I'm *using* py2app. I've been trying to use it for a
    couple of weeks now, with the generous help of such people as Robin
    Dunn, and I still don't have it quite working pro*perl*y.
    """

    This doesn't appear to match the description. Perhaps the PSU has
    subverted my comp)(*&^%$#@!
    NO CARRIER
    John Machin, Jan 30, 2009
    #8
  9. r

    r Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Jan 30, 2:26 am, John Machin <> wrote:
    [snip]
    > This doesn't appear to match the description. Perhaps the PSU has
    > subverted my comp)(*&^%$#@!
    > NO CARRIER


    Oops -- Good catch John,
    Even perfect people like myself make mistakes :). Here is the
    aforementioned thread where a Python user was chastised for daring to
    say Python has a clearer syntax than Perl thereby easing
    maintainability: OH NO! *big hand wave*
    http://groups.google.com/group/comp...hl=en&lnk=gst&q=perl bashing#c7cfe1fa9634cc2a

    These Perl mongers have no business doing their mongling here, go to
    c.l.Perl!
    r, Jan 30, 2009
    #9
  10. r

    MRAB Guest

    Stephen Hansen wrote:
    > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:38 AM, r <
    > <mailto:>> wrote:
    >
    > On Jan 30, 2:26 am, John Machin <
    > <mailto:>> wrote:
    > [snip]
    > > This doesn't appear to match the description. Perhaps the PSU has
    > > subverted my comp)(*&^%$#@!
    > > NO CARRIER

    >
    > Oops -- Good catch John,
    > Even perfect people like myself make mistakes :). Here is the
    > aforementioned thread where a Python user was chastised for daring to
    > say Python has a clearer syntax than Perl thereby easing
    > maintainability: OH NO! *big hand wave*
    > http://groups.google.com/group/comp...hl=en&lnk=gst&q=perl bashing#c7cfe1fa9634cc2a
    > <http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/b1214df115ac01ce/c7cfe1fa9634cc2a?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=perl+bashing#c7cfe1fa9634cc2a>
    >
    > These Perl mongers have no business doing their mongling here, go to
    > c.l.Perl!
    >
    >
    > He was not chastised, nor threatened as you previously said; he was
    > welcomed to Python in all of its awesomeness, and given a pointer about
    > community etiquette.
    >

    [snip]
    > I have tons of positive things to say about Python: lots of people in
    > The Community do. And we've all worked with other languages and have
    > reasons why we don't like those tools, and people are fine to share
    > those reasons. But that's a different thing then flinging bile and
    > ranting about how horrible Language-X is or how Perfect-For-All-Things
    > Python is.
    >

    [snip]
    It's probably unpythonic to bash other languages. Python is so good that
    there's no need. :)
    MRAB, Jan 30, 2009
    #10
  11. Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    r wrote:
    > Where are the community projects supporting Python? -- besides the
    > core devlopment. Seem s that nobody is interested unless their pay-pal
    > account is involved. I find this all quite disappointing.


    Hi r,

    Can you just type

    import antigravity

    and join us up there?

    Hatred for Ruby and Perl seems to oppose natural Python forces,
    that's why you can't see community spirit. Let your hatred go and
    start
    flying already.

    --
    Ivan
    Ivan Illarionov, Jan 30, 2009
    #11
  12. r

    Terry Reedy Guest

    Stephen Hansen wrote:
    > On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 12:38 AM, r <


    > Personally, I work for a division in our company that has converted over
    > the last few years our entire software line from an old, Windows-only
    > mix of C and VCL-stuff, to a serious mid-sized product which recently
    > clocked in at about 165k lines of Python code (about 600k more in third
    > party libs!) that's fast, effective, flexible, multi-platform and highly
    > responsive to our customer's evolving needs. We actually did a complete
    > rewrite from the ground up -- a dangerous thing to do, but the legacy
    > product was so out of date that it had to be done... and I don't think
    > any other set of tools would have been able to let us do so as well, in
    > as short of a period of time, or as iteratively and in cooperation with
    > our customer base.


    Thank you for sharing this. If it has not been already, could this be
    shared as a Python success story on the site? (With proprietary detail
    omitted as needed for approval, of course.)

    tjr
    Terry Reedy, Jan 30, 2009
    #12
  13. r

    Steve Holden Guest

    Ivan Illarionov wrote:
    > r wrote:
    >> Where are the community projects supporting Python? -- besides the
    >> core devlopment. Seem s that nobody is interested unless their pay-pal
    >> account is involved. I find this all quite disappointing.

    >
    > Hi r,
    >
    > Can you just type
    >
    > import antigravity
    >
    > and join us up there?
    >
    > Hatred for Ruby and Perl seems to oppose natural Python forces,
    > that's why you can't see community spirit. Let your hatred go and
    > start
    > flying already.
    >

    Indeed. What r has not yet grasped is that to be in favor of one thing
    you don't necessarily have to be against everything else. For example,
    if it hadn't been for generous help from the Perl community (as
    represented by http://www.yapc.org/) the first PyCon would never have
    got off the ground. The competition between languages for the attention
    of programmers isn't a zero-sum game.

    I think there has perhaps been some slight decrease in the tolerance
    level as expressed on this list over the last couple of years, but I
    don't think it's (yet) anything to be concerned about. It's mostly a
    matter of teaching by example. I'd like to think I usually set a good
    example, but I've certainly been known to get crabby from time to time.

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
    Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
    Steve Holden, Jan 30, 2009
    #13
  14. r

    r Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Jan 30, 4:36 pm, Steve Holden <> wrote:
    [snip]
    > It's mostly a matter of teaching by example. I'd like to think I usually
    > set a good example, but I've certainly been known to get crabby from time
    > to time


    Steve you are defiantly the better of two evils around here :D
    r, Feb 1, 2009
    #14
  15. r

    John Machin Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Feb 1, 11:19 am, r <> wrote:

    > Steve you are defiantly the better of two evils around here :D


    A most munificent malapropism! Sherman's goat must be serene with
    entropy!!
    John Machin, Feb 1, 2009
    #15
  16. r

    r Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    On Jan 31, 7:24 pm, John Machin <> wrote:
    > A most munificent malapropism! Sherman's goat must be serene with
    > entropy!!


    Who say's George Bush did't have anything to offer :). He was the
    decider after all.
    r, Feb 1, 2009
    #16
  17. r

    Craig Allen Guest

    Re: Does the Python community really follow the philospy of"Community Matters?"

    I think what you have found is a remarkable characteristic of this
    language. Somehow, perhaps something to do with guido or python
    itself, python has a very strong non-dogmatic streak. It's a relief
    really. If I were to pose a "is python or its community really xyz?"
    I would wonder about the "one best way to do something". One of my
    first posts here was about three different ways I had built
    singletons. As a result of that I was given a better way, but no one
    said any of the other ways were "non-pythonic", it was more, "if you
    use option one, make sure of this, if you use option two, don't forget
    that"...

    As such, python programmers are not there for you to feel superior.
    If you want a language for a feeling of community, then it hardly
    matters what language you choose, and if you want a good language,
    it's secondary if the community gives you that feeling (you should get
    it from the language itself). And since there IS a python community
    to go to for help, python has that covered without worrying about it
    or making it a language feature. It may seems cold, instead of giving
    warm fuzzies, people will help you with tangible problems, but we are
    not starting a commune. "Uses a langague with sense of community that
    advocates for their language over others" is never in a spec.


    -craig
    Craig Allen, Feb 2, 2009
    #17
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