dogma ...without the personal attacks

Discussion in 'Perl Misc' started by hudson, Aug 20, 2003.

  1. hudson

    hudson Guest

    I'm going to say it again...there is a whole lot of dogma and
    mythology in this group.

    Leave out the personal attacks this time and try to have a serious
    discussion about it...otherwise you are just degrading Perl......
     
    hudson, Aug 20, 2003
    #1
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  2. hudson

    hudson Guest

    >m-w.com defines dogma as "something held as an established opinion".
    >So in that sense, yes, there's a lot of dogma.


    Hi...I always thought of dogma as pretty much a party line...it
    doesn't have good connotations....kind of fascist

    >That, however, doesn't make it wrong. The dogma in question is the
    >result of many years of experience.


    Fascist reasoning is to be questioned...that's for sure! Never trust
    the party line...
     
    hudson, Aug 20, 2003
    #2
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  3. In article <>, hudson wrote:
    >>m-w.com defines dogma as "something held as an established opinion".
    >>So in that sense, yes, there's a lot of dogma.

    >
    > Hi...I always thought of dogma as pretty much a party line...it
    > doesn't have good connotations....kind of fascist


    Granted, that is another accepted definition of dogma.

    >>That, however, doesn't make it wrong. The dogma in question is the
    >>result of many years of experience.

    >
    > Fascist reasoning is to be questioned...that's for sure! Never trust
    > the party line...


    You seem to be missing my point. Just because something is "the party
    line" doesn't make it wrong. It doesn't make it right either, but just
    because a majority believes something doesn't make them automatically
    wrong.

    For example, the idea that murder is a Bad Thing (tm) is pretty
    generally accepted. Does that mean it's a good thing? No. Granted,
    it's an extreme example, but it's still the same idea.

    dha

    --
    David H. Adler - <> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
    "Anybody's apt to trip."
    "Not over a sofa!" - The Lady Eve
     
    David H. Adler, Aug 20, 2003
    #3
  4. hudson

    Si Ballenger Guest

    On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:31:33 -0700, hudson
    <> wrote:

    >I'm going to say it again...there is a whole lot of dogma and
    >mythology in this group.
    >
    >Leave out the personal attacks this time and try to have a serious
    >discussion about it...otherwise you are just degrading Perl......


    There is a small clique of comp.lang.perl.misc "clerics" that
    like to beat up on nubies and other infidels that don't bow
    before them. When they resort to personal attacks, you know
    you've got them out of their safe little caves and have them on
    the run. Sooner or later they will give you their big "PLONK!",
    which is the equivalent of them rolling over like a dog,
    urinating on themselves, and then hiding under mommies skirt.
    Actually good entertainment. ;-)
     
    Si Ballenger, Aug 20, 2003
    #4
  5. hudson

    Uri Guttman Guest

    >>>>> "SB" == Si Ballenger <shb> writes:

    SB> There is a small clique of comp.lang.perl.misc "clerics" that
    SB> like to beat up on nubies and other infidels that don't bow
    SB> before them. When they resort to personal attacks, you know
    SB> you've got them out of their safe little caves and have them on
    SB> the run. Sooner or later they will give you their big "PLONK!",
    SB> which is the equivalent of them rolling over like a dog,
    SB> urinating on themselves, and then hiding under mommies skirt.
    SB> Actually good entertainment. ;-)

    and there is the other clique which doesn't care about professional
    quality code or being correct or efficiency or good perl in general. you
    can choose which side to be on. note that this second clique doesn't
    teach perl professionally, doesn't attend or lecture at conferences,
    doesn't write articles or tutorials for various publications, doesn't
    write/edit/review books, etc. with your choice of the other clique i
    would expect you to also get your medical advice from the radio call in
    show or your financial advice from spam. both are very user friendly and
    won't ever give you practical feedback or criticism.

    programming is a career and a living for most (if not all) of the
    regulars here. like most professions, experience matters. you want the
    lawyer who has done your type of law and successfully, not some kid who
    just watched law and order season 3 on dvd. the problem with programming
    (and this group) is that that kid can also post answers here and there
    is no public way of judging the quality of those answers except via
    feedback from others. yet you would claim to use that dvd watching kid
    just because he is nicer to you or lets you tell him how to plead your
    case. that is a fool hiring a fool. go for it. just don't let me near
    your resume.

    programming is so easy to get into and make a hobby. it not even hard to
    find a job (at least when the market is hot) without massive experience
    or degrees. there is a constant discussion over 'certification' in
    programming (and perl in particular). would you rather use a CPA or your
    cousin who knows how to run quicken to do your taxes?

    so stop with your silly lambasting of the regulars here. the regulars
    all know and respect each other and notice that we don't flame anyone
    for a mistake or feedback or whatever. we all take proper critical
    feedback as what it is and not personal attacks. only the weak spirited
    and unprofessional take such replies personally. i have no problem with
    anyone commenting on the technical aspects of my posts and code. i may
    disagree with them and even say so but that is not personal. as they
    said in the godfather, it is just business. coding is all about peer
    review. code is for people, not computers. but that is too high a
    concept for most newbies and amateur coders. i have been coding for 29
    years now (24 of those as a paid professional) and i have seen and
    written more code than most of you. i am hired for that experience. i
    offer it here for free. you can take it or leave it but insulting me for
    my technical comments marks you as a fool. and that is a personal
    comment on you.

    and dave adler's comments on dogma were right on target. the majority
    choice is not right or wrong just based on that majority. dogma is bad
    when it is not created from free choice. here the use of modules and
    cpan is not issued from above and forced upon the perl community. it was
    developed over 50 years ago and refined in the greater computer
    community. the perl community just has adopted it and refined it even
    further with modules and cpan. and there is nothing to stop you from not
    using a module. just the voice of experience and reason will say it is a
    bad thing and that isn't nice to hear when you think you know it all
    (and really don't).

    uri

    --
    Uri Guttman ------ -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
    --Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
    Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org
     
    Uri Guttman, Aug 21, 2003
    #5
  6. hudson

    Uri Guttman Guest

    >>>>> "h" == hudson <> writes:

    h> if you think about it uri, you started this whole mess by calling me a
    h> script kiddie and unexperienced when I posted some code and questioned
    h> what you said.

    so i said that and i still say it. you are a kid. you write
    scripts. your code quality (IMNSHO) is of the level of script kiddies
    and matt's and other free scripts. you show no professional coding
    skills, have no credentials, don't understand bigger issues, so you
    look, sound and seem like a script kiddie.

    how long have you been coding? how long have you been working in the
    computer field? what is the most complex program you have written? have
    you ever worked with groups of coders? have you ever written tools or
    libraries of code for others?

    those are all professional qualifications. you have demonstrated NONE of
    them. you have acted childish, petulent, arrogant, among other ways that
    do not make you look good.

    and again, in my PROFESSIONAL OPINION (i get paid for this all the
    time), your code is piss poor. take that as a free code review. it is
    NOT an attack on you personally (though you certainly warrant personal
    attacks given your behavior here). code review is one of the things this
    group does. look at the history of moronzilla (purl gurl among other
    nicks). she has always been an isolated loner who preys on newbies and
    like a broken clock is right on random occassions. but she always takes
    code review as personal and nasty attacks. she has major psychological
    problems. even you could detect that from reading her posts. use google
    and see. do you want to go down in history as being like her? then stop
    this attitude of 'i know best' when you don't. you have no credentials
    here so don't act like you do. this is a wakeup call and if you heed it,
    one day you make actually thank me for it. but i doubt you will. teens
    like you live life like everything is theirs and all attacks are
    personal.

    you have a chance here to actually grow up by looking inside you and
    accepting the fact that you are not a great coder now. you may grow into
    one at some time in the future. but your skills are very limited and
    narrow. just because you can partially solve a problem like cgi or soap
    doens't mean a damned thing. try something harder. try doing it
    completely with a clean API and flexible design and full
    docuementation. that is what a professional coder strives to do. just
    whipping out a short script is what amateurs and kiddies do. amateurs
    are fine and i have no problem with learning code that way. but don't
    say your code is as good or better than some module written by a pro who
    has more coding skill in one finger than you will ever have. i know
    lincoln stein and he would laugh at your code (if he was the type that
    did such things). he is too nice a guy to say things like that though.

    so stop your act. stop posting so much useless stuff. post code, ask
    perl questions, discuss perl code and ideas, etc. that is what this
    group is for. it is not your personal playpen or amusement park.

    will you take that challenge? i hope you do.

    uri

    --
    Uri Guttman ------ -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
    --Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
    Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org
     
    Uri Guttman, Aug 21, 2003
    #6
  7. hudson

    Keith Keller Guest

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    In article <>, hudson wrote:
    > if you think about it uri, you started this whole mess by calling me a
    > script kiddie and unexperienced when I posted some code and questioned
    > what you said.


    "Mom, hudson's growing!"

    It would be considerate of you to not morph your address, so that
    those of us with you in our killfiles can continue to enjoy
    relative peace and quiet.

    - --keith

    - --
    -francisco.ca.us
    (try just my userid to email me)
    AOLSFAQ=http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/cgi-bin/fom

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    Keith Keller, Aug 21, 2003
    #7
  8. hudson

    Sam Holden Guest

    On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:12:31 -0700, hudson <> wrote:
    > if you think about it uri, you started this whole mess by calling me a
    > script kiddie and unexperienced when I posted some code and questioned
    > what you said.


    You said you wanted to be killfiled.

    Could you stop posting from different fake addresses, so that the killfile
    would actually get all of your blatherings.

    Thanks.

    --
    Sam Holden
     
    Sam Holden, Aug 21, 2003
    #8
  9. >>>>> "hudson" == hudson <> writes:
    [something]

    Please don't use "nobody.com". That's someone else's domain. For
    that, we can probably get you an AUP violation from your posting host,
    and then you'd be bumped off.

    Either use "example.com", because it's permitted, or use something
    that's not a valid top-level domain. ".invalid" is recommended, so
    something like "" is fair.

    I had to go round this with Kira as well. You can be anonymous, just
    don't do it by taking over someone else's domain (current or future).

    --
    Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
    <> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
    Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
    See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
     
    Randal L. Schwartz, Aug 21, 2003
    #9
  10. hudson

    hudson Guest

    if you think about it uri, you started this whole mess by calling me a
    script kiddie and unexperienced when I posted some code and questioned
    what you said.
     
    hudson, Aug 21, 2003
    #10
  11. Uri Guttman <> wrote:
    >>>>>> "h" == hudson <> writes:


    > posting your whois info means nothing as the whois info is

    ^^^^^^^^^^
    > publicly available anyway.



    I posted only an address. I did not say who's address it was.

    If Steve had not confirmed it in a followup, and reiterated
    it in several subsequent followups, nobody would have known
    that it was associated with him.

    I did not give away that it was his address, he did.


    --
    Tad McClellan SGML consulting
    Perl programming
    Fort Worth, Texas
     
    Tad McClellan, Aug 21, 2003
    #11
  12. hudson

    hudson Guest

    On 21 Aug 2003 00:04:17 GMT, (Sam
    Holden) wrote:

    >On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:12:31 -0700, hudson <> wrote:
    >> if you think about it uri, you started this whole mess by calling me a
    >> script kiddie and unexperienced when I posted some code and questioned
    >> what you said.

    >
    >You said you wanted to be killfiled.
    >
    >Could you stop posting from different fake addresses, so that the killfile
    >would actually get all of your blatherings.
    >
    >Thanks.


    Sam...I got an urge to write some dumb ass posting bot to keep
    switching my email and **** with your filters just to annoy you...will
    post random blatherings 20 times a day...but I will try very hard to
    resist that urge....
     
    hudson, Aug 21, 2003
    #12
  13. hudson

    hudson Guest

    On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:18:31 GMT, (Randal L.
    Schwartz) wrote:

    >>>>>> "hudson" == hudson <> writes:

    >[something]
    >
    >Please don't use "nobody.com". That's someone else's domain. For
    >that, we can probably get you an AUP violation from your posting host,
    >and then you'd be bumped off.
    >
    >Either use "example.com", because it's permitted, or use something
    >that's not a valid top-level domain. ".invalid" is recommended, so
    >something like "" is fair.
    >
    >I had to go round this with Kira as well. You can be anonymous, just
    >don't do it by taking over someone else's domain (current or future).


    sorry...better?
     
    hudson, Aug 21, 2003
    #13
  14. In article <>, hudson wrote:
    >
    > bah...I try to make peace and I get called a script kiddie again...
    >
    > you are dogmatic...that's how I see it...and if I don't use the module
    > you want, you are going to insult me. well, screw you...I ain't no
    > script kiddie...you might be a professional programmer but that
    > doesn't mean I can't play around with perl for myself and see where it
    > takes me.


    No one's saying you can't. However, if you post what people see as
    substandard code, they are as free to say that as you were to
    "play around". Really, if you are going to take all criticism as a
    personal insult, you might want to avoid usenet, where a thickish skin
    is something of a prerequisite.

    As to uri being dogmatic... Uri called you a script kiddie based on what
    you've presented of yourself. You may have tried to make peace, but you
    certainly didn't do anything to show that any of the things that
    triggered that asessment had changed. I'm not saying anything one way
    or the other about the asessment, but your almost constant use of the
    term "dogma" in a derogatory sense is getting a bit tired.

    dha

    --
    David H. Adler - <> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
    The perversity of the Universe tends towards a maximum.
     
    David H. Adler, Aug 21, 2003
    #14
  15. hudson

    hudson Guest

    On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:54:02 GMT, Uri Guttman <>
    wrote:

    >>>>>> "h" == hudson <> writes:

    >
    > h> thanks Uri...I think you are a decent guy. You got to lighten up a
    > h> little about calling people script kiddies even if that's how you see
    > h> it, but overall I think you really care about programming and I can
    > h> respect that.
    >
    >no, i call them as i see them. the script kiddie community cares little
    >for code quality or module use. you fit that category to a tee.


    bah...I try to make peace and I get called a script kiddie again...

    you are dogmatic...that's how I see it...and if I don't use the module
    you want, you are going to insult me. well, screw you...I ain't no
    script kiddie...you might be a professional programmer but that
    doesn't mean I can't play around with perl for myself and see where it
    takes me.

    > h> for my part, I did go over the deep end a little when you called me a
    > h> script kiddie and when Tad (that bastard) decided to post my whois
    > h> info, so I kind of regret it.
    >
    >tad is a friend of mine so i wouldn't go about slamming him like
    >that. and posting your whois info means nothing as the whois info is
    >publicly available anyway.
    >


    Tad is a jerk for posting that. If I was pissed at you and posted your
    whois info in usenet, you would be singing a different song.
     
    hudson, Aug 21, 2003
    #15
  16. hudson

    hudson Guest

    On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:46:09 -0500, (Tad
    McClellan) wrote:

    >Uri Guttman <> wrote:
    >>>>>>> "h" == hudson <> writes:

    >
    >> posting your whois info means nothing as the whois info is

    > ^^^^^^^^^^
    >> publicly available anyway.

    >
    >
    >I posted only an address. I did not say who's address it was.
    >
    >If Steve had not confirmed it in a followup, and reiterated
    >it in several subsequent followups, nobody would have known
    >that it was associated with him.
    >
    >I did not give away that it was his address, he did.


    Yes...I noticed the next day that you did not post my name...so I
    appreciate that.

    Actually, it is a dumb mailbox in LA and I am in NY, so I don't even
    know why I got so enraged...probably because I got 30 people flaming
    me here.

    If you want to buy a celluar phone, go to that address and I am sure
    they can help you ;-)
     
    hudson, Aug 21, 2003
    #16
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