Double space between sentences?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Chris Beall, Jul 21, 2003.

  1. Chris Beall

    Chris Beall Guest

    I prefer the visual appearance of a double space between sentences. In
    HTML, I get this effect by placing each sentence on its own line and
    eding it with  , thus:
    The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. 
    The new line character following the   provides the second space
    before the next sentence starts.

    This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it seems
    that I should just be typing the sentences with a single separating
    space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter like
    sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2, nor do
    I see it over the horizon in CSS3.

    Have I missed something?

    Chris Beall
     
    Chris Beall, Jul 21, 2003
    #1
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  2. Chris Beall

    mike c Guest

    "Chris Beall" <> wrote in message news:BOGSa.2166
    >
    > This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it seems
    > that I should just be typing the sentences with a single separating
    > space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter like
    > sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2, nor do
    > I see it over the horizon in CSS3.


    I'm not sure if its in CSS3 but it should be! I've always wanted to do the
    same thing without resorting to presentational hacks in the HTML like adding
    &nbsp;

    Here's something you could try:

    p span {margin-right:1em;}
    <p><span>First sentence.</span><span>Second sentence.</span></p>

    I can't remember off the top of my head if margins can be applied inline
    elements or not??

    Anyways, its still an ugly solution, and probably no better than just adding
    &nbsp...

    MikeyC
    http://www.zeit.ca/
     
    mike c, Jul 21, 2003
    #2
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  3. Chris Beall

    Adrienne Guest

    Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "mike c" <> writing
    in news:gXHSa.11622$:

    >
    > "Chris Beall" <> wrote in message
    > news:BOGSa.2166
    >>
    >> This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it
    >> seems that I should just be typing the sentences with a single
    >> separating space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter
    >> like sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2,
    >> nor do I see it over the horizon in CSS3.

    >
    > I'm not sure if its in CSS3 but it should be! I've always wanted to do
    > the same thing without resorting to presentational hacks in the HTML
    > like adding &nbsp;
    >
    > Here's something you could try:
    >
    > p span {margin-right:1em;}
    ><p><span>First sentence.</span><span>Second sentence.</span></p>
    >
    > I can't remember off the top of my head if margins can be applied
    > inline elements or not??
    >
    > Anyways, its still an ugly solution, and probably no better than just
    > adding &nbsp...
    >
    > MikeyC
    > http://www.zeit.ca/
    >
    >


    Are you talking about this:
    the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.
    the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.
    the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.

    As opposed to this?
    the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.

    the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.

    the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.

    If so, line-height is the way to go:

    p {line-height:1.5em} - play with the value


    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    http://www.arbpen.com
     
    Adrienne, Jul 21, 2003
    #3
  4. Chris Beall

    Disco Guest

    Chris Beall wrote:
    > I prefer the visual appearance of a double space between sentences.
    > In HTML, I get this effect by placing each sentence on its own line
    > and eding it with &nbsp;, thus:
    > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.&nbsp;
    > The new line character following the &nbsp; provides the second space
    > before the next sentence starts.
    >
    > This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it
    > seems that I should just be typing the sentences with a single
    > separating space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter
    > like sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2,
    > nor do I see it over the horizon in CSS3.
    >
    > Have I missed something?
    >
    > Chris Beall

    Well, I think it would be nice to have a selector that will be something
    like the ":before" or ":after" psuedo elements.

    So, something like this...... this would replace the "." with something like
    ". "...


    p {char-replacement:"." ". "}
    or
    p {char-replacement:"." ".&nbsp;.&nbsp;";}

    or something that would be reprsentitive of whatever you want... such
    as.....
    p {char-replacement:"." uri(../images/blah.gif);}

    if it could also be made to assign other classes to the character
    found...this would also be useful for things such as highlighting 'searched
    for' words such as...
    p {char-find-replace-with:"elephant" class(highlightcontext)}
    ..... this would find the word "elephant", and apply the style from the class
    "highlightecontext" to it.

    maybe? or not?
     
    Disco, Jul 21, 2003
    #4
  5. Chris Beall

    Geoff Ball Guest

    Adrienne <Xns93BEC648F4FDDarbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.162> wrote in alt.html:

    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "mike c" <> writing
    > in news:gXHSa.11622$:


    >> "Chris Beall" <> wrote in message
    >> news:BOGSa.2166


    >>> This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it
    >>> seems that I should just be typing the sentences with a single
    >>> separating space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter
    >>> like sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2,
    >>> nor do I see it over the horizon in CSS3.


    >> I'm not sure if its in CSS3 but it should be! I've always wanted to do
    >> the same thing without resorting to presentational hacks in the HTML
    >> like adding &nbsp;


    > Are you talking about this:
    > the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.
    > the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.
    > the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.
    >
    > As opposed to this?
    > the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.
    >
    > the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.
    >
    > the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog's back.
    >
    > If so, line-height is the way to go:


    No. They mean putting two spaces after a period, like your elementary
    teachers probably taught you as you were learning how to print.

    ie.

    I like cake. It tastes good. Cheesecake is my favourite.
    vs.
    I like cake. It tastes good. Cheesecake is my favourite.

    Regards,
    Geoff

    --
    http://www.doctype.ca/
    http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Geoff_Ball
     
    Geoff Ball, Jul 21, 2003
    #5
  6. Chris Beall

    mike c Guest

    >
    > No. They mean putting two spaces after a period, like your elementary
    > teachers probably taught you as you were learning how to print.


    While I was taught that in elementary school as well, does anyone have a
    definitive answer on whether or not its required syntax for proper grammer?
     
    mike c, Jul 21, 2003
    #6
  7. Chris Beall

    PeterMcC Guest

    Chris Beall wrote:
    > I prefer the visual appearance of a double space between sentences.
    > In HTML, I get this effect by placing each sentence on its own line
    > and eding it with &nbsp;, thus:
    > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.&nbsp;
    > The new line character following the &nbsp; provides the second space
    > before the next sentence starts.
    >
    > This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it
    > seems that I should just be typing the sentences with a single
    > separating space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter
    > like sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2,
    > nor do I see it over the horizon in CSS3.
    >
    > Have I missed something?
    >


    The threads that have dealt with this previously :)

    Have a look on Google groups - this crops up regularly and has resulted in
    some lengthy discussions of the more heat than light variety. 36 posts when
    it came up in Feb, 64 in July last year, etc... I'm not saying that you
    shouldn't raise this again - I'm just mentioning that you'll be lucky to get
    away with a simple answer.

    You, of course, can set out your documents however you want but, apart from
    the convention developed for using fixed space fonts on typewriters
    prevalent during the last century, there's a single space after a full stop.

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
     
    PeterMcC, Jul 21, 2003
    #7
  8. Chris Beall

    C A Upsdell Guest

    "Chris Beall" <> wrote in message
    news:BOGSa.2166$...
    > I prefer the visual appearance of a double space between sentences. In
    > HTML, I get this effect by placing each sentence on its own line and
    > eding it with &nbsp;, thus:
    > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.&nbsp;
    > The new line character following the &nbsp; provides the second space
    > before the next sentence starts.
    >
    > This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it seems
    > that I should just be typing the sentences with a single separating
    > space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter like
    > sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2, nor do
    > I see it over the horizon in CSS3.
    >
    > Have I missed something?


    A single space separating sentences is the standard for proportional fonts.
    What you want would be appropriate in some regions for monospace fonts.

    I view this as being a browser issue rather than an HTML or CSS issue: the
    browser should render text with a sentence gap appropriate to the font and
    the user's personal preferences.
     
    C A Upsdell, Jul 21, 2003
    #8
  9. Chris Beall

    Don McCahill Guest

    mike c wrote:
    >
    > While I was taught that in elementary school as well, does anyone have a
    > definitive answer on whether or not its required syntax for proper grammer?


    I do. It is not proper grammar. It is a typewriter thing. Double spaces
    after periods has never been acceptable in fine typography.



    ---

    Don McCahill
    www.whilo.com
     
    Don McCahill, Jul 21, 2003
    #9
  10. Chris Beall

    PeterMcC Guest

    mike c wrote:
    >> No. They mean putting two spaces after a period, like your elementary
    >> teachers probably taught you as you were learning how to print.

    >
    > While I was taught that in elementary school as well, does anyone
    > have a definitive answer on whether or not its required syntax for
    > proper grammer?


    It's neither syntax nor grammar - it was a stylistic convention used for
    fixed space fonts on typewriters in the last century.

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
     
    PeterMcC, Jul 21, 2003
    #10
  11. Chris Beall

    Chris Beall Guest

    "Chris Beall" <> wrote in message
    news:BOGSa.2166$...
    > I prefer the visual appearance of a double space between sentences.

    In
    > HTML, I get this effect by placing each sentence on its own line and
    > eding it with &nbsp;, thus:
    > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.&nbsp;
    > The new line character following the &nbsp; provides the second space
    > before the next sentence starts.
    >
    > This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it

    seems
    > that I should just be typing the sentences with a single separating
    > space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter like
    > sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2, nor

    do
    > I see it over the horizon in CSS3.
    >
    > Have I missed something?
    >
    > Chris Beall


    OK, what I missed is that (not too surprising) it's been mentioned
    before. Concensus seems to be that it is most common for monspaced
    fonts, although the specific font that brought this to my attention was
    proportional. And it isn't in plan for CSS. They way I'm getting it
    seems as good as any.

    I got used to this function with a document layout language called
    SCRIPT, where it was available, regardless of font. It didn't just work
    after periods, but after any of the common sentence-ending characters.
    Improved readability, IMO. Oh, well, another wheel that hasn't been
    reinvented yet....

    Thanks for all the comments.

    Chris Beall
     
    Chris Beall, Jul 21, 2003
    #11
  12. "Chris Beall" <> wrote in message news:<BOGSa.2166$>...
    > I prefer the visual appearance of a double space between sentences. In
    > HTML, I get this effect by placing each sentence on its own line and
    > eding it with &nbsp;, thus:
    > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.&nbsp;
    > The new line character following the &nbsp; provides the second space
    > before the next sentence starts.
    >
    > This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it seems
    > that I should just be typing the sentences with a single separating
    > space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter like
    > sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2, nor do
    > I see it over the horizon in CSS3.
    >
    > Have I missed something?
    >
    > Chris Beall



    Yes. You missed the thread here last year on this topic, in which on 3
    July 2002 I replied with a small contextual quote:

    > The rules of punctuation are clear: Two spaces (or a "long" space) after the
    > end of a sentence to differentiate it from any other construct which has a
    > period at the end of a word (i.e. abbreviations), which have only one (or a
    > "short") space. How else is a person supposed to know when a sentence ending
    > with an abbreviation and followed by a capitalized word (e.g. a proper name)
    > has actually ended?
    >


    While that argument is silly, it's not the silliest thing in your
    reasoning. The points you are missing (deliberately, it seems, since
    they have been made adequately clear in this discussion), are:

    1. The two-spaces "standard" was deprecated in the 50's with the
    advent of electronic typesetting technologies.

    2. The two-spaces "standard" is a standard only in the fossilized
    minds of academic throw-backs.

    3. Those who appeal to authority for support for the two-spaces
    "standard" will find nothing whatsoever to enable their attempt to
    apply that deprecated, useless, awkward, asinine punctuation mutant to
    Web communication. In fact, the HTML standard is to collapse extra
    spaces and extra lines.

    4. Craving to implement an already-idiotic two-spaces "standard" on
    the Web simply because you once-upon-a-time saw it in print media or
    learned it in a typing class in the middle of the past century is as
    logical as trying to make a flute sound like a piano because you had
    piano lessons before learning to play the flute.

    > Laziness is not an excuse.


    Neither is obdurate ignorance.

    ---- jerry (WikiWriter lives at http://hytext.com/ww)
    Georgie Porgie puddin' pie,
    Went and told a little lie.
    Now his buddies take the blame,
    'Cuz Georgie Porgie names the game.
     
    Jerry Muelver, Jul 21, 2003
    #12
  13. Chris Beall

    Chris Beall Guest

    "Jerry Muelver" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Chris Beall" <> wrote in message

    news:<BOGSa.2166$>...
    > > I prefer the visual appearance of a double space between sentences.

    In
    > > HTML, I get this effect by placing each sentence on its own line and
    > > eding it with &nbsp;, thus:
    > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.&nbsp;
    > > The new line character following the &nbsp; provides the second

    space
    > > before the next sentence starts.
    > >
    > > This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT. In today's world it

    seems
    > > that I should just be typing the sentences with a single separating
    > > space and then applying an appropriate CSS sytle parameter like
    > > sentence-space: double. I don't see any way to do this in CSS2, nor

    do
    > > I see it over the horizon in CSS3.
    > >
    > > Have I missed something?
    > >
    > > Chris Beall

    >
    >
    > Yes. You missed the thread here last year on this topic, in which on 3
    > July 2002 I replied with a small contextual quote:
    >

    (snip quote)

    which those interested can find by Googling (Muelver punctuation "how
    else"). There are 64 posts in the thread, which address the issue
    extensively and with, um, enthusiasm. The consensus (aside from the one
    that folks who didn't agree were idiots) seemed to be that the two-space
    convention was not applicable to the web, hence there was no technical
    support for it.

    In my case, I tend to use the convention by habit, probably because I
    was taught that way in typing class. When I looked at the text (Century
    Gothic) on a web page I had created and noticed that the sentences
    seemed to run together, I applied the old convention, thus alleviating
    the problem. That got me wondering if W3C was doing anything in this
    area, hence my initial post.

    Again, thanks for all of the enlightenment.

    Chris Beall
     
    Chris Beall, Jul 21, 2003
    #13
  14. <snip>
    >In my case, I tend to use the convention by habit, probably because I
    >was taught that way in typing class. When I looked at the text (Century
    >Gothic) on a web page I had created and noticed that the sentences
    >seemed to run together, I applied the old convention, thus alleviating
    >the problem. That got me wondering if W3C was doing anything in this
    >area, hence my initial post.
    >
    >Again, thanks for all of the enlightenment.
    >
    >Chris Beall

    Someone that speaks with common sense at last!!!
     
    Titus A Ducksass, Jul 22, 2003
    #14
  15. Chris Beall

    Chris Beall Guest

    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns93C214F909640jkorpelacstutfi@193.229.0.31...
    > "Chris Beall" <> wrote:
    >
    > > I prefer the visual appearance of a double space between sentences.
    > > In HTML, I get this effect by placing each sentence on its own
    > > line and eding it with &nbsp;, thus:
    > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.&nbsp;

    >
    > It doesn't really matter whether you have a line break or a space

    after
    > the no-break space. Line breaks are generally equivalent to spaces in
    > HTML.
    >
    > > This is, however, a STYLE thing, not CONTENT.

    >
    > Yes. But to handle it in CSS as currently defined, you would have to
    > add quite some markup, e.g. make each sentence a
    > <span class="sentence">...</span>
    > and use span.sentence { padding-right: 1ex; } or something like that.


    Not that it's likely to happen, but this could be a global formatting
    characteristic, just as Font is. Once specified, perhaps tied to <body>
    it would be inherited throughout the page.
    Sentence-space: single | double
    The browser would honor this request by examining the current language
    and applying the appropriate criteria for determining end-of-sentence.
    No need for the user to <span> each sentence. This would require some
    pretty spiffy sentence-detection logic; as I recall, IBM made it easier
    by adding the requirement that the sentence end with a New Line, which
    is contrary to HTML syntax.

    But my fingers can type &nbsp; almost automatically, so it's somewhat
    moot.

    Chris Beall
     
    Chris Beall, Jul 24, 2003
    #15
  16. "Chris Beall" <> wrote:

    > Not that it's likely to happen, but this could be a global
    > formatting characteristic, just as Font is.


    It would be _very_ different from font issues.

    > This would require some pretty spiffy sentence-detection logic;


    That's really an understatement. There is no possibility of reliably
    detecting sentence boundaries automatically without including some sort
    of semantic analysis.

    > But my fingers can type &nbsp; almost automatically, so it's
    > somewhat moot.


    Another problem with that is that it works. There's no way the user
    could disable it, if he seriously dislikes it.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jul 25, 2003
    #16
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