Dreamweaver or Frontpage or Plain HTML

K

Kevin Scholl

I've never seen a width applied to a said:
That is indeed interesting...
I have been working with DW in a production environment for about 4 years
and have not witnessed code (markup) being generated like that,
unless asked
to do so.


well - yes, that's the point isn't it.
Example. I asked DW to make a table, 100% in width, 3 rows and 2 columns.
Here is the markup it gave me...

<table width="100%" summary="test table">
<tr>
<td>&nbsp;</td>
<td>&nbsp;</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>&nbsp;</td>
<td>&nbsp;</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>&nbsp;</td>
<td>&nbsp;</td>
</tr>
</table>


Ahh yes - forgot the &nbsp; - apologies, above was from memory.
The non-breaking spaces it inserts are just placeholders, where other
objects/content would be placed. After content is added, it looks
like this
(no code cleaning was done)...

<table width="100%" summary="test table">
<tr>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor si</td>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consect</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit am</td>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscin</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit </td>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectet</td>
</tr>
</table>

Looks pretty clean to me, nicely indented, etc...


markup looks just fine and dandy[1] - goes to show that power-tools
make stuff quicker, not necessarily better[2]. Not sure where you're
posting from, but in AWW we see a lot of empty tables when reviewing
DW/FP/whatever generated pages

Well sure, if the user tells it to create a table and then doesn't
populate it with anything. Seems to me the tool has done exactly what it
was told to do, yes?
I'm not trying to convince you to use the tool. Use whatever you are
comfortable, happy & productive with. :)


Likewise - live long and prosper.

[1] usual caveats about correct use of table markup applies
[2] the number of people that can't drill a straight hole is truly
astonishing

Indeed. :)

--

*** Remove the DELETE from my address to reply ***

======================================================
Kevin Scholl http://www.ksscholl.com/
(e-mail address removed)
 
S

Samman

William Tasso said:
Fleeing from the madness of the Road Runner High Speed Online
http://www.rr.com jungle
Samman <[email protected]> stumbled into
news:alt.html,alt.www.webmaster,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html
and said:



well - yes, that's the point isn't it.

I failed to see any "junk"... Isn't that the point?


Ahh yes - forgot the &nbsp; - apologies, above was from memory.

I can see where this may be going.

The non-breaking spaces it inserts are just placeholders, where other
objects/content would be placed. After content is added, it looks like
this
(no code cleaning was done)...

<table width="100%" summary="test table">
<tr>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor si</td>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consect</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit am</td>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscin</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit </td>
<td>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectet</td>
</tr>
</table>

Looks pretty clean to me, nicely indented, etc...

markup looks just fine and dandy[1] - goes to show that power-tools make
stuff quicker, not necessarily better[2]. Not sure where you're posting
from, but in AWW we see a lot of empty tables when reviewing
DW/FP/whatever generated pages

A cave in the Appalacian Mtns. , on Mars, in Ted Kennedy's car going over a
bridge.
????
Likewise - live long and prosper.

.... and may the Force be with you :-/

"Have any of you nerds actually SEEN a vagina? If you had a police line-up
with a vigina, a donut, and a mop, would you be able to pick out the vagina?
Cause the minute you can, you're gonna throw that Stormtrooper cookie jar
right out the window!" - Bobcat Goldthwait
[1] usual caveats about correct use of table markup applies
[2] the number of people that can't drill a straight hole is truly
astonishing
--
William Tasso

Save the drama
for your Mama.
 
S

Stewart Gordon

I am starting up a home business and will be setting up a web site to
market the software that I will be developing in C++. I was wondering
if I should buy something like Dreamweaver or Frontpage or try to
develop the web pages directly using HTML and a text editor. I have
not had experience building web pages but have had several years
experience in programming in C and C++ and in using LaTeX for document
preparation.

I hear that FP is joining NetObjects Fusion in the league of worst web
page editors ever made. Some of the newer versions do some things that
exceed all stupidity, e.g. in some circums it'll convert a block of text
into an ugly image for no reason.

http://webtips.dan.info/wysiwyg.html

Hand-coding is the way to go.

But since you're a programmer - maybe you could write your own HTML
editor? Perhaps a syntax-directed editor, a WYSIWYM or something for a
change.

Stewart.

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- C++@ a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K-@ w++@ O? M V? PS-
PE- Y? PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
 
G

GreyWyvern

And lo, Stewart Gordon didst speak in
alt.html,alt.www.webmaster,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
I hear that FP is joining NetObjects Fusion in the league of worst web
page editors ever made. Some of the newer versions do some things that
exceed all stupidity, e.g. in some circums it'll convert a block of text
into an ugly image for no reason.

http://webtips.dan.info/wysiwyg.html

I took a little time to read that article and it is a *terrible* example
to foist on newbies who want to abandon WYSIWYG obsfucation. It was
written in 1997, and is now horribly out of date. It actually recommends
replacing this bit of WYSIWYG code:

<CENTER><DIV ALIGN=CENTER><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT
FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE="+1"><FONT
COLOR="red"><B>&nbsp;</B></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></DIV></CENTER>

.... with this "huge" improvement:

<P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="+1"
COLOR="red"><B>&nbsp;</B></FONT></P>

For heaven sakes, you shouldn't be inserting empty <p> tags for blank
space in the *first place*! The proper "replacement" would be to remove
the code altogether and apply a greater CSS margin to the sibling elements.
Hand-coding is the way to go.

It certainly is, but don't follow any advice from that article, except the
part where it says to stop using the WYSIWYG editor. :)

Grey
 
S

Stewart Gordon

GreyWyvern said:
And lo, Stewart Gordon didst speak in
alt.html,alt.www.webmaster,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:

I took a little time to read that article and it is a *terrible* example
to foist on newbies who want to abandon WYSIWYG obsfucation.

Actually, it's aimed at people who want to be responsible WYSIWYDG
editor owners. Though it is also of use to people who want to throw
them away.
It was written in 1997, and is now horribly out of date.

Maybe one or two bits of that page are a little out of date, but I don't
see how the page as a whole is.
It actually recommends replacing this bit of WYSIWYG code:

<CENTER><DIV ALIGN=CENTER><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT
FACE="Arial,Helvetica"><FONT SIZE="+1"><FONT
COLOR="red"><B>&nbsp;</B></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></DIV></CENTER>

... with this "huge" improvement:

<P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="+1"
COLOR="red"><B>&nbsp;</B></FONT></P>

For heaven sakes, you shouldn't be inserting empty <p> tags for blank
space in the *first place*! The proper "replacement" would be to remove
the code altogether and apply a greater CSS margin to the sibling elements.

Yes, but the point of that piece was to illustrate the absent-mindedness
of these editors. It perhaps isn't surprising that some naive editors
will assume you really did want a paragraph containing a single hard
space, but the bloatedness of what some programs do produce is silly.
It certainly is, but don't follow any advice from that article, except
the part where it says to stop using the WYSIWYG editor. :)

So you think that, when somebody decides to switch to hand-coding,
he/she/it should just leave in all the mess that the old editor put there?

Stewart.

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- C++@ a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K-@ w++@ O? M V? PS-
PE- Y? PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
 
G

GreyWyvern

And lo, Stewart Gordon didst speak in
alt.html,alt.www.webmaster,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
Yes, but the point of that piece was to illustrate the absent-mindedness
of these editors. It perhaps isn't surprising that some naive editors
will assume you really did want a paragraph containing a single hard
space, but the bloatedness of what some programs do produce is silly.

*My* point is that the article *recommends* using the second given code
snippet above as a replacement for the WYSIWYG code. *Both* examples are
horribly bloated.
So you think that, when somebody decides to switch to hand-coding,
he/she/it should just leave in all the mess that the old editor put
there?

No. I think that if someone is going to switch from WYSIWYG to
hand-coding, they shouldn't start with WYSIWYG code and prune down from
there. Rather they should start with a blank text editor (and perhaps an
HTML/CSS reference guide or two) and work their way up.

Grey
 
S

Stewart Gordon

GreyWyvern said:
And lo, Stewart Gordon didst speak in
alt.html,alt.www.webmaster,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
*My* point is that the article *recommends* using the second given code
snippet above as a replacement for the WYSIWYG code. *Both* examples
are horribly bloated.

No it doesn't. Read the sentence that introduces the second code
snippet again (assuming you ever read it at all), especially the first
two words of it.

No. I think that if someone is going to switch from WYSIWYG to
hand-coding, they shouldn't start with WYSIWYG code and prune down from
there. Rather they should start with a blank text editor (and perhaps
an HTML/CSS reference guide or two) and work their way up.

Assuming that, if they had made it look very "fancy" in the WYSIWYDG,
then they don't mind that the site'll look more basic until they've
learned the particular bits of CSS to achieve the desired level of
fanciness.

Stewart.

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- C++@ a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K-@ w++@ O? M V? PS-
PE- Y? PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
 
G

GreyWyvern

And lo, Stewart Gordon didst speak in
alt.html,alt.www.webmaster,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
No it doesn't. Read the sentence that introduces the second code
snippet again (assuming you ever read it at all), especially the first
two words of it.

Here, I will quote you the relevant part of the article with my reponses:

"This whole big mess of code [the WYSIWYG block] serves only to insert a
blank paragraph for vertical spacing, accomplishable via <P></P>. All the
other tags are useless."


According to the spec, empty <p></p> tags should be ignored completely.
This is error #1: *All* the tags listed are useless.


"They're added because the editors are so dumb that if you have stuff like
font settings enabled they insist on adding them even to blank spaces. The
editors are also pretty dumb about failing to collapse redundant tags.
Even if the various font changes above were actually needed to make sure
that blank space was rendered correctly, you could have done it with:

<P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="+1"
COLOR="red"><B>&nbsp;</B></FONT></P>"


This is error #2. This is certainly not the furthest you could distil an
empty paragraph tag down to while including all of the formatting given
above. The correct replacement would be:

CSS:
p.empty {
text-align:center;
font:bold 110% Arial,Helvetica;
color:red;
}

HTML
<p>&nbsp;</p>

However, even this is spurious, since the entire section of code, both CSS
and HTML, is completely unnecessary. You may respond to this saying:
"Hey, it was only an example to collapse redundant tags, not a
recommendation as to what coders should actually use." Aha, well, I offer
you the next paragraph of the article:


"Note how the three different centering tags were reduced to an attribute
of the single paragraph tag, and the three different font settings were
made into attributes of one FONT tag. This produces a shorter, cleaner,
more logical piece of code, showing the advantages of coding by hand
instead of using some silly editor!"


So, with this confirmation, WYSIWYG'ers come away with the idea that the
use of the tags above is both correct and acceptable. This is not a good
thing.
Assuming that, if they had made it look very "fancy" in the WYSIWYDG,
then they don't mind that the site'll look more basic until they've
learned the particular bits of CSS to achieve the desired level of
fanciness.

"Fanciness" is overrated. Accessibility isn't.

Grey
 
K

Kent Feiler

I think coding in plain HTML is easier than the Dreamweaver and
Frontpage vendors claim. If you're doing a sizable web site, it's true
that the first few pages you code might have been faster in
Dreamweaver, but as you get into it, you find that you're doing more
cut/paste/modify than new code and your speed increases. In the end,
plain HTML is faster than Dreamweaver/Frontpage because you don't have
to duke it out with program that doesn't always do things the way you
want them done.

It's pretty much the same as the reasons your coding in C or C++
rather than something like COBOL.



Regards,


Kent Feiler
www.KentFeiler.com
 
S

Stewart Gordon

GreyWyvern wrote:
Here, I will quote you the relevant part of the article with my reponses:

"This whole big mess of code [the WYSIWYG block] serves only to insert a
blank paragraph for vertical spacing, accomplishable via <P></P>. All
the other tags are useless."

According to the spec, empty <p></p> tags should be ignored completely.
This is error #1: *All* the tags listed are useless.

Yes, I pointed out that error once but the correction didn't make it in
for some strange reason. However, it's still correct that all other
_tags_ are useless, since &nbsp; is not a tag.
"They're added because the editors are so dumb that if you have stuff
like font settings enabled they insist on adding them even to blank
spaces. The editors are also pretty dumb about failing to collapse
redundant tags. Even if the various font changes above were actually
needed to make sure that blank space was rendered correctly, you could
have done it with:

<P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT FACE="Arial,Helvetica" SIZE="+1"
COLOR="red"><B>&nbsp;</B></FONT></P>"

This is error #2. This is certainly not the furthest you could distil
an empty paragraph tag down to while including all of the formatting
given above.
However, even this is spurious, since the entire section of code, both
CSS and HTML, is completely unnecessary. You may respond to this
saying: "Hey, it was only an example to collapse redundant tags, not a
recommendation as to what coders should actually use."
Exactly.

Aha, well, I offer you the next paragraph of the article:

"Note how the three different centering tags were reduced to an
attribute of the single paragraph tag, and the three different font
settings were made into attributes of one FONT tag. This produces a
shorter, cleaner, more logical piece of code, showing the advantages of
coding by hand instead of using some silly editor!"

Yes, it's an advantage as far as it's a first step in cutting down code
bloat. A similar argument could probably be applied to
program-generated versus human-generated CSS code.
So, with this confirmation, WYSIWYG'ers come away with the idea that the
use of the tags above is both correct and acceptable. This is not a
good thing.

It is "correct", at least if the (X)HTML flavour specified in the
DOCTYPE declaration has "Transitional" in its name.

It is "acceptable", at least as far as all validators and web browsers
I've seen are concerned.

Whether it's the approach recommended by the authorities is another matter.
"Fanciness" is overrated. Accessibility isn't.

Good point.

Stewart.

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- C++@ a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K-@ w++@ O? M V? PS-
PE- Y? PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
 
P

Paul Ding

According to the spec, empty <p></p> tags should be ignored completely.

What specification are you talking about? It does NOT say that in the
current HTML/4.01 specification, nor in any prior specification for
HTML.

Some browsers will collapse a series of multiple <br> and <p> tags
into a single <p> tag, and a series of multiple <br> tags into a
single <br> tag. Others will not. The HTML specification does not
specify which is the correct behavior.

If you interpret the <br> tag as meaning "no more on this line" and
the <p> tag as meaning "no more on this line or a certain amount of
vertical space below this line", then collapsing the tags makes sense.
If you interpret the <br> tag as meaning "move to the next line", and
the <p> tag as meaning "move down a bit and then move to the next
line", then producing greater vertical space due to the repetition
doesn't.

And since the HTML specification doesn't say which is the proper
interpretation, browser writers are free to use either interpretation.
The </p> tag is ignored in HTML. The effect of attributes to a <p> tag
last until the tag of that level.
 
G

GreyWyvern

And lo, Paul Ding didst speak in
alt.html,alt.www.webmaster,comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html:
What specification are you talking about? It does NOT say that in the
current HTML/4.01 specification, nor in any prior specification for
HTML.

Au contraire:

"We discourage authors from using empty P elements. User agents should
ignore empty P elements."
- http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.3.1

Unfortunately, the specifications are only useful if they get read.
Some browsers will collapse a series of multiple <br> and <p> tags
into a single <p> tag, and a series of multiple <br> tags into a
single <br> tag. Others will not. The HTML specification does not
specify which is the correct behavior.

<br> tags are outside the scope of this discussion. The spec, however, is
quite clear about empty said:
If you interpret the <br> tag as meaning "no more on this line" and
the <p> tag as meaning "no more on this line or a certain amount of
vertical space below this line", then collapsing the tags makes sense.
If you interpret the <br> tag as meaning "move to the next line", and
the <p> tag as meaning "move down a bit and then move to the next
line", then producing greater vertical space due to the repetition
doesn't.

These tags are, and should always be, interpreted as defined within the
specifications. The <p></p> element defines the beginning and end of a
paragraph, without implying visual styling of any kind. If someone
depends upon this tag to "move down a bit and then move to the next line"
they are setting themselves up for a fall if and when a UA decides to
implement their default paragraph styling in another way.
And since the HTML specification doesn't say which is the proper
interpretation, browser writers are free to use either interpretation.
The </p> tag is ignored in HTML.

This is simply untrue. Why are you perpetuating this misconception?
The effect of attributes to a <p> tag last until the tag of that level.

I don't know what you mean by this, perhaps you could clarify.

Grey
 
A

Andy Dingley

I took a little time to read that article and it is a *terrible* example
to foist on newbies who want to abandon WYSIWYG obsfucation. It was
written in 1997, and is now horribly out of date.

On a .info domain ?

Chances are it's quite a recent page. Which is even worse.
 
G

Guil

Warren said:
As a fellow C++ programmer, I can say that you will find the FrontPage IDE
easier to get used to. However, I can't stand FP and only use Dreamweaver --
which in my opinion is far superior.

I agree, Dreamweaver is just simpler and more user friendly. Besides,
Front page ads alot of unnecessary tags.

I think after years of working.. I somehow decided to keep using Visual
Interdev '98 , I usually type out most of the code. I know its the long
way, but I have way more control.

I just got used to Interdev's color scheme for the code... I find it
long to apply the same on other software, although, If I had to switch,
I would definately choose Dremweaver.

anyone else with me on this?

Guil.
http://www.partsearch.us/Electronic_Part_index/X/1.html
 
J

jonathan.camenisch

I'm with you. I haven't personally used FrontPage, but I've taken over
sites that had been built with it. It creates such a tag soup that it's
given me a really bad (make that really, really bad) taste in my mouth
for FrontPage.

Personally, I would commend a good code-oriented text editor to you.
I'm quite happy with SciTe, because it gives me great syntax
highlighting. It also understands languages like PHP and Ruby, so it's
better suited to scripting than Dreamweaver or something (you can edit
any text file with Dreamweaver too; you just don't have so much text
editing out of the box). If you're going to do much with a web site,
you ought to expect to use scripting languages eventually if not at
first.

One other issue in this: if you want to make a first-class web site,
you'll want to set up a css-based layout rather than a table-based
layout. Others may disagree with me on this, but without taking time to
lay out the case, I think I have the votes of virtually all
forward-thinking web developers. Last I checked, all of the mainstream
WYSIWYG editors create table-based layouts, so if you use them, you'll
want to do a lot of hand coding anyway.

So, I still use SciTe, and use PHP for simple web sites just to handle
repeating elements using "include." There are lots of really good web
pros who do the same. Nevertheless, I'm not against Dreamweaver and
plan to purchase it pretty soon. I have at least one friend who's a web
developer, who uses css layouts vs. tables, and who loves Dreamweaver
for the help it gives him with editing css and stuff. Dreamweaver won't
get in your way if you're coding by hand, and there are good articles
out there on how make it behave in a good standards-compliant way.

HTH,
Jonathan
 

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