Eclipse or NetBeans ,SWT or Swing.

Discussion in 'Java' started by Marcello, Apr 24, 2006.

  1. Marcello

    Marcello Guest

    Hi,


    I write basically ERP/CRM applications .
    I´m choosing between Eclipse and Netbeans and Swing and SWT.

    It seems that none of them is as productive as Delphi environment.
    (I´m not saying that Delphi is more complete than Java,I´m not blind
    I only think that Creating a ERP application to be faster in Delphi
    than it seems to be in Java(first impressions from a beginner).

    Up to know (discarding JBuilder) it seems that the closest thing
    I can find to mimic a two way tool is ECLIPSE ans its visual editor.
    It seems that NETBEANS/MATISSE far away of being a two way tool.(I
    never used it ,just based in comments I have read here and there).

    I´m planning also to use SWING instead of SWT,since it seems its
    more portable and has less bugs specially on Linux.

    I´m wrong or I´ll have to write more than I´m used to do With
    Delphi?

    Marcello
    Marcello, Apr 24, 2006
    #1
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  2. Marcello

    WillemF Guest

    Marcello, An additional IDE for Java is Sun Java Studio. (at the moment
    free to members of the Sun Developers Network (developers.sun.com)).
    Have not used it yet, but the installation is quite large in size, so
    you need lots of disk space. In addition, you could consider Myeclipse
    (www.myeclipse.com), an inexpensive subscription service implementing
    extentions on top of Eclipse to facilitiate Java programming. Myeclipse
    has a good reputation. I moved over from Delphi/Kylix to Eclipse after
    Borland abandoned Delphi and the other excellent IDE products that it
    produced. My experience in moving over to Java is that that, yes, I
    write more lines of code to do the same thing than would have been the
    case with Delphi, but Java inherently has several advantages over
    Delphi. For instance layout managers is one of the things that I found
    difficult to master, but once this was achieved it enables an effective
    way to manage screen updates within a window, e.g. for resizing, that
    would take ages to do in Delphi/Kylix. Also, I found the natural TCP/IP
    interface as well as the SQL interface in Java much easier to use than
    would have been the case in Delphi. Added to the possibility of writing
    applets for capturing data from a web form, it unleashes quite a bit of
    power that was not possible under Delphi/Kylix. Eclipse has several
    things that Delphi/Kylix does not have. One of the important things is
    design-time syntactical and variable scope checking that reduces the
    design time significantly. Kind regards, Willem.
    WillemF, Apr 24, 2006
    #2
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  3. Marcello

    David Segall Guest

    "Marcello" <> wrote:


    >Up to know (discarding JBuilder) it seems that the closest thing
    >I can find to mimic a two way tool is ECLIPSE ans its visual editor.
    >It seems that NETBEANS/MATISSE far away of being a two way tool.(I
    >never used it ,just based in comments I have read here and there).

    If by "two way tool" you mean a GUI builder that can read Java code
    and convert that into a visual representation you won't find one. All
    of the GUI builders require extra information which, as far as I know,
    is always stored in a separate file.
    David Segall, Apr 24, 2006
    #3
  4. Marcello

    Marcello Guest

    WillemF escreveu:

    I moved over from Delphi/Kylix to Eclipse after
    > Borland abandoned Delphi and the other excellent IDE products that it
    > produced.

    That what happens when you let marketing people take technical
    decisions.

    My experience in moving over to Java is that that, yes, I
    > write more lines of code to do the same thing than would have been the
    > case with Delphi, but Java inherently has several advantages over
    > Delphi. For instance layout managers is one of the things that I found
    > difficult to master, but once this was achieved it enables an effective
    > way to manage screen updates within a window, e.g. for resizing, that
    > would take ages to do in Delphi/Kylix.

    I never had problems in resizing windows in Delphi,I use a very old
    function
    that does that.

    Also, I found the natural TCP/IP
    > interface as well as the SQL interface in Java much easier to use than
    > would have been the case in Delphi.

    I believe.

    Added to the possibility of writing
    > applets for capturing data from a web form, it unleashes quite a bit of
    > power that was not possible under Delphi/Kylix. Eclipse has several
    > things that Delphi/Kylix does not have. One of the important things is
    > design-time syntactical and variable scope checking that reduces the
    > design time significantly. Kind regards, Willem.


    Thank you for the information,It is nice tho hear from peolple ,who
    have already
    made the move.

    In fact I´m not liking a lot of things In Java,I think the separation
    between DFM and Pas,
    the way Delphi declare and override things,much clear than in Java.

    Regards,
    Marcello
    Marcello, Apr 24, 2006
    #4
  5. Marcello

    Marcello Guest

    David Segall wrote
    >>If by "two way tool" you mean a GUI builder that can read Java code
    >>and convert that into a visual representation you won't find one. All

    o>>f the GUI builders require extra information which, as far as I
    know,
    >>is always stored in a separate file.


    Yes exactly this,And there is any good reason why it can´t be
    implemented in Java.
    ..NET have several GUIS like this:VISUAL STUDIO,delphi 2006 AND SO ON.

    Regards,
    Marcello
    Marcello, Apr 24, 2006
    #5
  6. Marcello

    David Segall Guest

    "Marcello" <> wrote:

    >David Segall wrote
    >>>If by "two way tool" you mean a GUI builder that can read Java code
    >>>and convert that into a visual representation you won't find one. All

    >o>>f the GUI builders require extra information which, as far as I
    >know,
    >>>is always stored in a separate file.

    >
    >Yes exactly this,And there is any good reason why it can´t be
    >implemented in Java.
    >.NET have several GUIS like this:VISUAL STUDIO,delphi 2006 AND SO ON.

    I don't think so. You could probably hand code a .frm file in Visual
    Basic so that it would be editable in the IDE but you could not give
    any other Visual Studio language some foreign source code and expect
    it to be editable in the GUI builder. I don't know enough about Delphi
    to argue but I'm sure it would not be possible to give it a windowing
    Pascal program and expect to be able to use Delphi's GUI editor.

    I think that you have just bumped into the first obstacle encountered
    when moving to Java. With Delphi, the IDE and the language are
    inseparable; with Java you must choose your DE. After some
    fruitless searching for the "right" IDE I solved this problem by
    deciding that I was not moving from Visual Basic to Java. I was moving
    from Visual Basic to NetBeans.
    David Segall, Apr 24, 2006
    #6
  7. Marcello

    Marcello Guest

    I don´t plan to move from IDE very often.
    Up to know it seems to me a Java limitation,not a feature.
    JBUILDER probably do What I want,but its paid and probably will going
    to disapear very soon

    Before using Delphi I used Clip-4-win,a Program that generate windows
    like programs from source,using
    just a compiler and a linker.

    Of Course Delphi was ten times more productive,Its hard to believe that
    without a two way tool ,I´ll have
    the same results.

    In fact I´m choosing Java,because it runs on Linux and because its
    free.
    But If you have to buy a lot of Plugins ,its not free anymore.

    I think Java suffers from a pioners illness,It was a revolution,but
    having to threat with legacy codes,sometimes is really bad.

    I´m not saying these because I want to use .NET,I really don´t.

    But If SUN ,IBM and othes wants Java to beat .NET, they should know
    that the time spent do develop an application is
    the first point an enterprise look when choosing a language to
    develop.(Java or C#),at least in Brazil .

    SUN could make a kind of ROADMAP saying that in five years legacy code
    that does not comply with some rules will
    not be supported anymore in newer JVMS.
    This could make newer thing easier to implement.

    In fact I think the Delphi code to be more "navegable" and easy to
    understand at a first look.
    You know having to declare a method,using specific words to override a
    method.

    It seems that in Java ,you have to policy yourself more than you have
    to do with Delphi.
    I can trust in myself,but will have to policy more my co-workers.

    By the way,are you using SWT or Swing?

    Marcello
    Marcello, Apr 24, 2006
    #7
  8. Marcello

    David Segall Guest

    "Marcello" <> wrote:

    >I don´t plan to move from IDE very often.
    >Up to know it seems to me a Java limitation,not a feature.

    I agree that Sun, in their haste to release Java, failed to specify a
    satisfactory windowing API let alone a satisfactory basis for a visual
    GUI developer. Java 1.5 has the beginnings of a general solution to
    this problem in the form of Annotations
    <http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/annotations.html>
    >JBUILDER probably do What I want,but its paid and probably will going
    >to disapear very soon

    It may be going to disappear but, as I posted in response to a
    previous post of yours, JBuilder Foundation Edition is free.
    >Of Course Delphi was ten times more productive,Its hard to believe that
    >without a two way tool ,I´ll have
    >the same results.

    All the IDEs I have listed at <http://profectus.com.au> are just as
    "two way" as Delphi. Like Delphi they use a set of files to define the
    project, form layout and procedures used in the application. The only
    difference is that there are seven of them that use Java as the
    underlying language instead of the single one, that you are accustomed
    to, that uses Pascal as the underlying application language.
    >
    >In fact I´m choosing Java,because it runs on Linux and because its
    >free.
    >But If you have to buy a lot of Plugins ,its not free anymore.

    You don't have to buy anything. Try NetBeans, you probably won't need
    any plugins at all.
    >
    >I think Java suffers from a pioners illness,It was a revolution,but
    >having to threat with legacy codes,sometimes is really bad.

    I agree but I found Microsoft's solution to this problem much worse.
    They decided to completely change the Visual Basic language to VB.NET
    and, in the process, make millions of lines of VB code obsolete.
    >
    >But If SUN ,IBM and othes wants Java to beat .NET, they should know
    >that the time spent do develop an application is
    >the first point an enterprise look when choosing a language to
    >develop.(Java or C#),at least in Brazil .

    Microsoft have adopted the totally object oriented and virtual machine
    model used in Java. If you choose a modern IDE I doubt if there is any
    difference in development time.
    >SUN could make a kind of ROADMAP saying that in five years legacy code
    >that does not comply with some rules will
    >not be supported anymore in newer JVMS.
    >This could make newer thing easier to implement.

    That is exactly what they do! When the compiler tells you that your
    code is "deprecated" they are saying that you should change it to use
    a newer API.
    >
    >In fact I think the Delphi code to be more "navegable" and easy to
    >understand at a first look.
    >You know having to declare a method,using specific words to override a
    >method.
    >
    >It seems that in Java ,you have to policy yourself more than you have
    >to do with Delphi.
    >I can trust in myself,but will have to policy more my co-workers.
    >
    >By the way,are you using SWT or Swing?

    Swing. I confess that when I decided to move from Visual Basic to Java
    I, more or less, decided to accept Sun as my new Guru instead of
    Microsoft. Sun said Swing so I swung. :)
    David Segall, Apr 24, 2006
    #8
  9. Marcello

    Marcello Guest


    >>I agree that Sun, in their haste to release Java, failed to specify a
    >>satisfactory windowing API let alone a satisfactory basis for a visual
    >>GUI developer. Java 1.5 has the beginnings of a general solution to
    >>this problem in the form of Annotations
    >><http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/guide/language/annotations.html>


    I would like people not to get me wrong.I´m just a Java beginner,In
    fact by what I´VE
    seen the last version of Java is really stronger than the older ones.
    SUN is not sleeping ,neither IBM and other big players.
    But software industry works like these,Invent something,wait for
    another company to improve it,
    copy it,invent more something.(Microsoft prefers the Copy it session
    :>})

    >>It may be going to disappear but, as I posted in response to a
    >>previous post of yours, JBuilder Foundation Edition is free.

    I prefer to stay way from Borland,They didn´t decide If they´re a
    software producer,a marketing company,
    or if they want to sell pizza.


    >>All the IDEs I have listed at <http://profectus.com.au> are just as
    >>"two way" as Delphi. Like Delphi they use a set of files to define the
    >>project, form layout and procedures used in the application. The only
    >>difference is that there are seven of them that use Java as the
    >>underlying language instead of the single one, that you are accustomed
    >>to, that uses Pascal as the underlying application language.

    Nice to hear that.



    >>I agree but I found Microsoft's solution to this problem much worse.
    >>They decided to completely change the Visual Basic language to VB.NET
    >>and, in the process, make millions of lines of VB code obsolete.

    I agree 100% with you,fortunatelly I always keep myself away from
    microsoft.

    >>Microsoft have adopted the totally object oriented and virtual machine
    >>model used in Java. If you choose a modern IDE I doubt if there is any
    >>difference in development time.

    I hope you´re right,As I said before I prefer to start selling Hot
    dogs than
    becoming a Microsoft Nut.


    >>That is exactly what they do! When the compiler tells you that your
    >>code is "deprecated" they are saying that you should change it to use
    >>a newer API.

    Fine.


    >>Swing. I confess that when I decided to move from Visual Basic to Java
    >>I, more or less, decided to accept Sun as my new Guru instead of
    >>Microsoft. Sun said Swing so I swung. :)

    Swing in Brazil have a pornografic conotation (Why did they choose this
    name?)

    Marcello
    Marcello, Apr 24, 2006
    #9
  10. Marcello

    Marcello Guest

    By the way.
    I don´t know Why am I caring so much about writing more code.
    My Superclasses usually do so many things,that I have to write really
    few lines of code in the other programs.
    So I´ll probably have to "write more" just while writing "my
    framework"

    Marcello
    Marcello, Apr 25, 2006
    #10
  11. Marcello

    Marcello Guest

    Hi,

    I´ve just take a look at NETBEANS and MATISSE.
    I´m starting to think ,I found what I want to use for the next years.
    The last time i felt that was seven year ago(when I knew my wife :>}

    Marcello
    Marcello, Apr 25, 2006
    #11
  12. Marcello

    David Segall Guest

    "Marcello" <> wrote:

    >Swing in Brazil have a pornografic conotation

    It does in Australia too! But, since you compared NetBeans to your
    wife elsewhere in this thread, perhaps you agree :)
    David Segall, Apr 25, 2006
    #12
  13. Marcello

    Marcello Guest

    In fact it was a very unhappy comparison.
    I expect my wife to be with me for the next 50 years.
    I think no language will have such a feature.
    But the word SWING here in Brazil,means let somebody Be with your wife
    as you´re with his wife.
    Something I never think about and surely I will never do.


    Marcello
    Marcello, Apr 25, 2006
    #13
  14. Marcello

    Marcello Guest

    One more reason that I´ll neve understand marketing guys.
    Can you image something like this?
    You father in law coming to your house and see you reading a book like
    these
    Master SWING with the biggest specialists in the world.
    He´ll probably have a heart atack and can blame SUN on this.

    Marcello
    Marcello, Apr 25, 2006
    #14
  15. Marcello wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    >
    > I write basically ERP/CRM applications .
    > I´m choosing between Eclipse and Netbeans and Swing and SWT.
    >
    > It seems that none of them is as productive as Delphi environment.
    > (I´m not saying that Delphi is more complete than Java,I´m not blind
    > I only think that Creating a ERP application to be faster in Delphi
    > than it seems to be in Java(first impressions from a beginner).
    >


    You're probably right ... in a certain way Visual Basic is faster too
    .... I don't like the result, though ...

    > Up to know (discarding JBuilder) it seems that the closest thing
    > I can find to mimic a two way tool is ECLIPSE ans its visual editor.
    > It seems that NETBEANS/MATISSE far away of being a two way tool.(I
    > never used it ,just based in comments I have read here and there).


    Not really sure what you mean by two-way-tool, but try JDeveloper 10g
    R2. Along with the ADF components, including Swing support, it's pretty
    quick to whip up some forms from database tables.

    You should spend some time going through tutorials to get a basic grip,
    and everything will work smooth with Oracle DB ofcourse :-/

    >
    > I´m planning also to use SWING instead of SWT,since it seems its
    > more portable and has less bugs specially on Linux.


    With some JGoodies components having been integrated in JDeveloper 10g
    R2 making good looking forms has become really easy. JGoodies you can
    use with any other development environment that support Swing as well.

    > I´m wrong or I´ll have to write more than I´m used to do With
    > Delphi?


    The short answer is probably yes. Java isn't a 4gl, it's a general
    purpose language. But with the help of a good IDE, you'll save a lot of
    work.
    Jon Martin Solaas, Apr 25, 2006
    #15
  16. Marcello wrote:
    > I don´t plan to move from IDE very often.
    > Up to know it seems to me a Java limitation,not a feature.
    > JBUILDER probably do What I want,but its paid and probably will going
    > to disapear very soon


    Ah, so that's why you don't use it. Well, I have to bring up JDeveloper
    again, then. It's free and not going anywhere soon ... except forward ...

    (Several other nice IDE's exist, ofcourse, JDeveloper just happens to
    be my favourite).

    --
    jon martin solaas
    Jon Martin Solaas, Apr 25, 2006
    #16
  17. David Segall wrote:
    > "Marcello" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Up to know (discarding JBuilder) it seems that the closest thing
    >> I can find to mimic a two way tool is ECLIPSE ans its visual editor.
    >> It seems that NETBEANS/MATISSE far away of being a two way tool.(I
    >> never used it ,just based in comments I have read here and there).

    > If by "two way tool" you mean a GUI builder that can read Java code
    > and convert that into a visual representation you won't find one. All
    > of the GUI builders require extra information which, as far as I know,
    > is always stored in a separate file.


    Often those separate files are just java source, and as long as you
    don't mess to much with them you can actually edit manually and switch
    back and forth between source and design mode. Works for me (sometimes),
    at least ...
    Jon Martin Solaas, Apr 25, 2006
    #17
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