embedding fonts

Discussion in 'HTML' started by the idiot, May 26, 2005.

  1. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    doing...
    i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea why.

    is it wrong / ok?

    and why?
    thank you
     
    the idiot, May 26, 2005
    #1
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  2. the idiot

    Adrienne Guest

    Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "the idiot"
    <> writing in
    news::

    > a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    > doing...
    > i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea
    > why.
    >
    > is it wrong / ok?
    >
    > and why?
    > thank you
    >
    >
    >


    If the user has the font on their system, then they will see that font.
    Embedding fonts in web pages works for some browsers some of the time. If
    the font is essential, like a logo, then a graphic should be used.

    To be honest, if font embedding actually worked, I would not be happy. I
    already have 2000 fonts on my system, about 200 of those are actually
    installed. If every web site I visited suddenly started installing
    different fonts on my system, my system would soon grind to a halt.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
     
    Adrienne, May 26, 2005
    #2
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  3. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "Adrienne" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9661F21D66C3Farbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158...
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "the idiot"
    > <> writing in
    > news::
    >
    > > a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    > > doing...
    > > i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea
    > > why.
    > >
    > > is it wrong / ok?
    > >
    > > and why?
    > > thank you
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    > If the user has the font on their system, then they will see that font.
    > Embedding fonts in web pages works for some browsers some of the time. If
    > the font is essential, like a logo, then a graphic should be used.
    >
    > To be honest, if font embedding actually worked, I would not be happy. I
    > already have 2000 fonts on my system, about 200 of those are actually
    > installed. If every web site I visited suddenly started installing
    > different fonts on my system, my system would soon grind to a halt.
    >
    > --

    ooh i didnt know that an embedded font would install itself on the viewers
    comp...
    from what i know i dont think it is for a logo - the client just wants the
    font he likes to be seen by everybody...

    what would be the best argument for my friend to dissuade his client?
    that it doesnt always work?
     
    the idiot, May 26, 2005
    #3
  4. the idiot

    jake Guest

    In message <>, the idiot
    <> writes
    >a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    >doing...
    >i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea why.
    >
    >is it wrong / ok?
    >
    >and why?
    >thank you
    >
    >


    Font embedding is just fine, although usually reserved these days for IE
    users only -- although that's probably 85-90% of your audience. Non-IE
    users get to see an alternative font or their own default.

    <http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm>

    WEFT will not create the appropriate .eot file if the font does not
    allow embedding.

    regards.
    --
    Jake
     
    jake, May 26, 2005
    #4
  5. the idiot

    jake Guest

    In message <Xns9661F21D66C3Farbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158>, Adrienne
    <> writes
    >Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "the idiot"
    ><> writing in
    >news::
    >
    >> a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    >> doing...
    >> i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea
    >> why.
    >>
    >> is it wrong / ok?
    >>
    >> and why?
    >> thank you
    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    >If the user has the font on their system, then they will see that font.
    >Embedding fonts in web pages works for some browsers some of the time.


    No. It works for (PC) IE users all of the time -- assuming you haven't
    got font downloading switched off.

    > If
    >the font is essential, like a logo, then a graphic should be used.


    Graphical text can't be enlarged, and a selective font download can be
    smaller than a graphic.
    >
    >To be honest, if font embedding actually worked, I would not be happy.


    I guess you're not happy, then ;-)
    > I
    >already have 2000 fonts on my system, about 200 of those are actually
    >installed. If every web site I visited suddenly started installing
    >different fonts on my system, my system would soon grind to a halt.


    Uhh .. no. The downloaded font exists only temporarily -- just like an
    image.

    regards..
    >


    --
    Jake
     
    jake, May 26, 2005
    #5
  6. the idiot

    the idiot Guest

    "jake" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In message <>, the idiot
    > <> writes
    > >a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    > >doing...
    > >i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea

    why.
    > >
    > >is it wrong / ok?
    > >
    > >and why?
    > >thank you
    > >
    > >

    >
    > Font embedding is just fine, although usually reserved these days for IE
    > users only -- although that's probably 85-90% of your audience. Non-IE
    > users get to see an alternative font or their own default.
    >
    > <http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft3/default.htm>
    >
    > WEFT will not create the appropriate .eot file if the font does not
    > allow embedding.
    >
    > regards.
    > --

    cheers all... i will pass the information on..
     
    the idiot, May 26, 2005
    #6
  7. the idiot

    Adrienne Guest

    Gazing into my crystal ball I observed jake <>
    writing in news:xhvqkdNHdYlCFw$:

    > In message <Xns9661F21D66C3Farbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158>, Adrienne
    ><> writes
    >>Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "the idiot"
    >><> writing in
    >>news::
    >>
    >>> a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    >>> doing... i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i
    >>> had no idea why.
    >>>
    >>> is it wrong / ok?
    >>>
    >>> and why?
    >>> thank you
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>If the user has the font on their system, then they will see that font.
    >>Embedding fonts in web pages works for some browsers some of the time.

    >
    > No. It works for (PC) IE users all of the time -- assuming you haven't
    > got font downloading switched off.
    >
    >> If
    >>the font is essential, like a logo, then a graphic should be used.

    >
    > Graphical text can't be enlarged, and a selective font download can be
    > smaller than a graphic.
    >>
    >>To be honest, if font embedding actually worked, I would not be happy.

    >
    > I guess you're not happy, then ;-)
    >> I
    >>already have 2000 fonts on my system, about 200 of those are actually
    >>installed. If every web site I visited suddenly started installing
    >>different fonts on my system, my system would soon grind to a halt.

    >
    > Uhh .. no. The downloaded font exists only temporarily -- just like an
    > image.
    >
    > regards..
    >>

    >


    Then I stand corrected.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
     
    Adrienne, May 26, 2005
    #7
  8. the idiot

    Toby Inkster Guest

    jake wrote:

    > No. It works for (PC) IE users all of the time -- assuming you haven't
    > got font downloading switched off.


    And assuming you chose to install that IE component at all.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, May 27, 2005
    #8
  9. the idiot

    jake Guest

    In message <>, Toby
    Inkster <> writes
    >jake wrote:
    >
    >> No. It works for (PC) IE users all of the time -- assuming you haven't
    >> got font downloading switched off.

    >
    >And assuming you chose to install that IE component at all.
    >

    We do seem to have this conversation regularly, don't we ;-)

    I think the answer is 'unless you go out of your way not to allow your
    browser to do so'.

    BTW. Have you ever seen an 'out-of-the' box PC that didn't have an IE
    capable of downloading fonts?

    regards
    --
    Jake
     
    jake, May 27, 2005
    #9
  10. the idiot

    Toby Inkster Guest

    jake wrote:

    > BTW. Have you ever seen an 'out-of-the' box PC that didn't have an IE
    > capable of downloading fonts?


    I don't know anybody who uses "out-of-the-box PCs".

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, May 28, 2005
    #10
  11. Toby Inkster wrote:
    >>BTW. Have you ever seen an 'out-of-the' box PC that didn't have an IE
    >>capable of downloading fonts?

    > I don't know anybody who uses "out-of-the-box PCs".


    Anecdotal data is always meaningless.

    --
    -=tn=-
     
    Travis Newbury, May 28, 2005
    #11
  12. In article <xhvqkdNHdYlCFw$>,
    says...
    > In message <Xns9661F21D66C3Farbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158>, Adrienne
    > <> writes
    > >Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "the idiot"
    > ><> writing in
    > >news::
    > >
    > >> a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    > >> doing...
    > >> i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea
    > >> why.
    > >>
    > >> is it wrong / ok?
    > >>
    > >> and why?
    > >> thank you
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>

    > >
    > >If the user has the font on their system, then they will see that font.
    > >Embedding fonts in web pages works for some browsers some of the time.

    >
    > No. It works for (PC) IE users all of the time -- assuming you haven't
    > got font downloading switched off.


    So, as Adrienne said, it works for *some browsers some of the time*.
    Even your own statement says that it doesn't work for IE all of the
    time.

    --
    Hywel

    Kill the Crazy Frog
    http://www.petitiononline.com/crzyfrg/
     
    Hywel Jenkins, May 29, 2005
    #12
  13. the idiot

    jake Guest

    In message <>, Hywel
    Jenkins <> writes
    >In article <xhvqkdNHdYlCFw$>,
    > says...
    >> In message <Xns9661F21D66C3Farbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158>, Adrienne
    >> <> writes
    >> >Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "the idiot"
    >> ><> writing in
    >> >news::
    >> >
    >> >> a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    >> >> doing...
    >> >> i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea
    >> >> why.
    >> >>
    >> >> is it wrong / ok?
    >> >>
    >> >> and why?
    >> >> thank you
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> >If the user has the font on their system, then they will see that font.
    >> >Embedding fonts in web pages works for some browsers some of the time.

    >>
    >> No. It works for (PC) IE users all of the time -- assuming you haven't
    >> got font downloading switched off.

    >
    >So, as Adrienne said, it works for *some browsers some of the time*.
    >Even your own statement says that it doesn't work for IE all of the
    >time.


    Font embedding works in IE all of the time unless you have disabled it
    -- in the same way that image downloading in IE works all the time
    unless you have disabled it -- or printing of backgrounds in IE works
    all the time unless you disable it, or ...........

    And your point is ... ?
    >


    --
    Jake
     
    jake, May 29, 2005
    #13
  14. In article <>,
    says...
    > In message <>, Hywel
    > Jenkins <> writes
    > >In article <xhvqkdNHdYlCFw$>,
    > > says...
    > >> In message <Xns9661F21D66C3Farbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158>, Adrienne
    > >> <> writes
    > >> >Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "the idiot"
    > >> ><> writing in
    > >> >news::
    > >> >
    > >> >> a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    > >> >> doing...
    > >> >> i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea
    > >> >> why.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> is it wrong / ok?
    > >> >>
    > >> >> and why?
    > >> >> thank you
    > >> >>
    > >> >>
    > >> >>
    > >> >
    > >> >If the user has the font on their system, then they will see that font.
    > >> >Embedding fonts in web pages works for some browsers some of the time.
    > >>
    > >> No. It works for (PC) IE users all of the time -- assuming you haven't
    > >> got font downloading switched off.

    > >
    > >So, as Adrienne said, it works for *some browsers some of the time*.
    > >Even your own statement says that it doesn't work for IE all of the
    > >time.

    >
    > Font embedding works in IE all of the time unless you have disabled it
    > -- in the same way that image downloading in IE works all the time
    > unless you have disabled it -- or printing of backgrounds in IE works
    > all the time unless you disable it, or ...........
    >
    > And your point is ... ?


    My point is that what Adrienne said is exactly correct and, although
    your first sentence ("No.") disagrees, the rest of what you say confirms
    what she said. "all the time *unless you have disabled it*". That's
    not "all the time" is it?

    Get my point now? It's not rocket science so, please, try to keep up.

    --
    Hywel

    Kill the Crazy Frog
    http://www.petitiononline.com/crzyfrg/
     
    Hywel Jenkins, May 29, 2005
    #14
  15. the idiot

    jake Guest

    In message <>, Hywel
    Jenkins <> writes
    >In article <>,
    > says...
    >> In message <>, Hywel
    >> Jenkins <> writes
    >> >In article <xhvqkdNHdYlCFw$>,
    >> > says...
    >> >> In message <Xns9661F21D66C3Farbpenyahoocom@207.115.63.158>, Adrienne
    >> >> <> writes
    >> >> >Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "the idiot"
    >> >> ><> writing in
    >> >> >news::
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> a freind was asking if it is okay to embed a font on a website he was
    >> >> >> doing...
    >> >> >> i told him i didnt think it was right to do that but that i had no idea
    >> >> >> why.
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> is it wrong / ok?
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> and why?
    >> >> >> thank you
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >
    >> >> >If the user has the font on their system, then they will see that font.
    >> >> >Embedding fonts in web pages works for some browsers some of the time.
    >> >>
    >> >> No. It works for (PC) IE users all of the time -- assuming you haven't
    >> >> got font downloading switched off.
    >> >
    >> >So, as Adrienne said, it works for *some browsers some of the time*.
    >> >Even your own statement says that it doesn't work for IE all of the
    >> >time.

    >>
    >> Font embedding works in IE all of the time unless you have disabled it
    >> -- in the same way that image downloading in IE works all the time
    >> unless you have disabled it -- or printing of backgrounds in IE works
    >> all the time unless you disable it, or ...........
    >>
    >> And your point is ... ?

    >
    >My point is that what Adrienne said is exactly correct and, although
    >your first sentence ("No.") disagrees, the rest of what you say confirms
    >what she said. "all the time *unless you have disabled it*". That's
    >not "all the time" is it?
    >
    >Get my point now? It's not rocket science so, please, try to keep up.
    >

    Let's try this again (and don't worry, I'll type slowly..)

    I interpreted Adrienne's statement as meaning that font embedding is
    unreliable ... a reasonable interpretation strengthened by the
    statement:

    "To be honest, if font embedding actually worked ........"

    So. As I see it, my comments are completely accurate.

    "Font embedding works in IE on a PC all the time unless the facility is
    disabled".

    I can't make it any simpler than that.

    regards.


    --
    Jake
    ( .... just a spam trap.)
     
    jake, May 31, 2005
    #15
  16. the idiot

    Adrienne Guest

    Gazing into my crystal ball I observed jake <>
    writing in news:mUW$:

    >>> >> >If the user has the font on their system, then they will see that
    >>> >> >font. Embedding fonts in web pages works for some browsers some
    >>> >> >of the time.
    >>> >>

    <snip>

    > I interpreted Adrienne's statement as meaning that font embedding is
    > unreliable ... a reasonable interpretation strengthened by the
    > statement:
    >
    > "To be honest, if font embedding actually worked ........"
    >
    > So. As I see it, my comments are completely accurate.
    >
    > "Font embedding works in IE on a PC all the time unless the facility is
    > disabled".
    >


    For the IE on the PC user who has it enabled, yes, it works. For you the
    author, who does not know what is on a visitor's system without browser
    sniffing (the browser can lie and with js disabled, even less information
    is available), it works for _some_ of your visitors _some_ of the time.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
     
    Adrienne, May 31, 2005
    #16
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