eng/rus in pages

Discussion in 'HTML' started by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCpher_Cypher?=, Sep 23, 2005.

  1. Is there a way to combine english and russian characters in pages
    without the use of unicodes (#xxxx;)? Unicode is fine, since it's always
    displayed correctly, but it takes too much time to edit it..

    Thanks,
    lüph
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCpher_Cypher?=, Sep 23, 2005
    #1
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  2. Lüpher Cypher wrote:

    > Is there a way to combine english and russian characters in pages
    > without the use of unicodes (#xxxx;)? Unicode is fine, since it's always
    > displayed correctly, but it takes too much time to edit it..


    Use real Unicode characters (instead of character references), save the
    document with a Unicode character encoding[1] and ensure your server is
    configured to inform clients that the document is encoded in Unicode[2].

    [1] How you do this depends on your editor
    [2] How you do this depends on your server

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
    David Dorward, Sep 24, 2005
    #2
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  3. Well, I use Zend Studio, and I believe it does not support that - I went
    through the preferences, but couldn't find anything. I can set unicode
    font, but as soon as I reopen the file, it all turns to question marks.
    Notepad, however, can save that in unicode. I am willing to edit that
    particular file in it (it's a php with definitions). It seems to work so
    far, thanks for the advice!
    Do you, by any chance, know any good PHP IDE (not WYSIWYG or both
    hand-code and WYSIWYG), such as Zend, that supports that?

    Thanks again!
    lüph


    David Dorward wrote:
    > Lüpher Cypher wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Is there a way to combine english and russian characters in pages
    >>without the use of unicodes (#xxxx;)? Unicode is fine, since it's always
    >>displayed correctly, but it takes too much time to edit it..

    >
    >
    > Use real Unicode characters (instead of character references), save the
    > document with a Unicode character encoding[1] and ensure your server is
    > configured to inform clients that the document is encoded in Unicode[2].
    >
    > [1] How you do this depends on your editor
    > [2] How you do this depends on your server
    >
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCpher_Cypher?=, Sep 24, 2005
    #3
  4. Ok, it has worked ok on my local host, but as I uploaded it to a server
    (one of the free ones), I got something that looks more like the
    non-unicode chars (say, Про).. I have this as my header:

    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />

    I've also noticed that when I view the source the page starts with:
    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1">
    which obviously inserts 3 extra characters at the beginning - it does
    not on my local host. As far as I know, they use some *nix system with
    apache.
    Any ideas if this could be fixed?

    Thank you,
    lüph


    David Dorward wrote:
    > Lüpher Cypher wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Is there a way to combine english and russian characters in pages
    >>without the use of unicodes (#xxxx;)? Unicode is fine, since it's always
    >>displayed correctly, but it takes too much time to edit it..

    >
    >
    > Use real Unicode characters (instead of character references), save the
    > document with a Unicode character encoding[1] and ensure your server is
    > configured to inform clients that the document is encoded in Unicode[2].
    >
    > [1] How you do this depends on your editor
    > [2] How you do this depends on your server
    >
    =?windows-1252?Q?L=FCpher_Cypher?=, Sep 24, 2005
    #4
  5. "Lüpher Cypher" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:Zo1Ze.3702$L15.939@trndny01...

    > Notepad, however, can save that in unicode.


    How did you do that?
    I do not find this option for Notepad (Anteckningar in Swedish)

    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    (sono italiano ma vivo in Svezia)
    (Ñ Ð¸Ñ‚Ð°Ð»ÑŒÑнец но Ñ Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ñƒ в Швеции )
    (我是 æ„大利人 , 但是 我 ä½ åœ¨ ç‘žå…¸)
    (minä olen Italian kansalainen, mutta minä asun Ruotsissa)
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Sep 24, 2005
    #5
  6. "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:g42Ze.34595$...
    >
    > "Lüpher Cypher" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:Zo1Ze.3702$L15.939@trndny01...
    >
    > > Notepad, however, can save that in unicode.


    I guess you meant "Wordpad".
    What is the doctype for Russian?

    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/ru/tes.html


    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    (sono italiano ma vivo in Svezia)
    (Ñ Ð¸Ñ‚Ð°Ð»ÑŒÑнец но Ñ Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ñƒ в Швеции )
    (我是 æ„大利人 , 但是 我 ä½ åœ¨ ç‘žå…¸)
    (minä olen Italian kansalainen, mutta minä asun Ruotsissa)
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Sep 24, 2005
    #6
  7. I have WinXP/Notepad. As soon as I tried to save a file with ru
    encoding, it told me that I have unicode characters there, and offered
    to choose the type I wish to save it in (press cancel) - after that,
    choose utf-8 in the encoding field when saving and everything should be ok..

    Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:
    > "Lüpher Cypher" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:Zo1Ze.3702$L15.939@trndny01...
    >
    >
    >>Notepad, however, can save that in unicode.

    >
    >
    > How did you do that?
    > I do not find this option for Notepad (Anteckningar in Swedish)
    >
    =?UTF-8?B?TMO8cGhlciBDeXBoZXI=?=, Sep 24, 2005
    #7
  8. I don't think doctype has that much influence, as everything works fine
    on my local server with en/ru/de encoding.. Here's the headers I use:

    <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1">
    <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C/DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
    <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">
    <head>
    <title></title><meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
    content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />
    </head>

    I believe the utf-8 is the crutial role in this :)


    lüph



    Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:g42Ze.34595$...
    >
    >>"Lüpher Cypher" <> skrev i meddelandet
    >>news:Zo1Ze.3702$L15.939@trndny01...
    >>
    >>
    >>>Notepad, however, can save that in unicode.

    >
    >
    > I guess you meant "Wordpad".
    > What is the doctype for Russian?
    >
    > https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/ru/tes.html
    >
    >
    =?UTF-8?B?TMO8cGhlciBDeXBoZXI=?=, Sep 24, 2005
    #8
  9. "Lüpher Cypher" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:mB2Ze.117$j_3.15@trndny07...
    > I have WinXP/Notepad. As soon as I tried to save a file with ru
    > encoding, it told me that I have unicode characters there, and offered
    > to choose the type I wish to save it in (press cancel) - after that,
    > choose utf-8 in the encoding field when saving and everything should be

    ok..


    I am using Win98/Wordpad on this computer.
    WinXP does not seem to be compatible with the ftp program which I use at the
    moment.
    Which doctype do you use for Russian, anyway?



    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    (sono italiano ma vivo in Svezia)
    (Ñ Ð¸Ñ‚Ð°Ð»ÑŒÑнец но Ñ Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ñƒ в Швеции )
    (我是 æ„大利人 , 但是 我 ä½ åœ¨ ç‘žå…¸)
    (minä olen Italian kansalainen, mutta minä asun Ruotsissa)
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Sep 24, 2005
    #9
  10. "Lüpher Cypher" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:OE2Ze.2669$w74.451@trndny05...
    > I don't think doctype has that much influence, as everything works fine
    > on my local server with en/ru/de encoding.. Here's the headers I use:
    >
    > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1">
    > <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C/DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
    > "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
    > <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">
    > <head>
    > <title></title><meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
    > content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />
    > </head>
    >
    > I believe the utf-8 is the crutial role in this :)
    >
    >
    > lüph


    So do I!
    But can I save the name of the files in Russian (cyrillic)?
    Or is it better with Latin fonts?

    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    (sono italiano ma vivo in Svezia)
    (Ñ Ð¸Ñ‚Ð°Ð»ÑŒÑнец но Ñ Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ñƒ в Швеции )
    (我是 æ„大利人 , 但是 我 ä½ åœ¨ ç‘žå…¸)
    (minä olen Italian kansalainen, mutta minä asun Ruotsissa)
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Sep 24, 2005
    #10
  11. Lüpher Cypher wrote:
    > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1">


    Your XML prolog claims that the page is encoded using ISO-8859-1...

    > <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C/DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
    > "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
    > <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">
    > <head>
    > <title></title><meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
    > content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />


    But the imitation Content-Type header says it's encoded using UTF-8.
    Which is it?

    > </head>
    Leif K-Brooks, Sep 24, 2005
    #11
  12. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=FCpher_Cypher?=

    rf Guest

    Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:

    > I am using Win98/Wordpad on this computer.


    Windows 98 is not in general unicode compliant unless you have installed the
    Microsoft Layer for Unicode (which you have not or you would not be asking
    this question).

    And there is no difference between Notepad and Wordpad. In fact these
    programs are not editors at all, they are simply wrappers for the inbuilt
    Windows Common Controls, "edit" and "richedit".

    > WinXP does not seem to be compatible with the ftp program which I use at

    the
    > moment.


    I doubt this. Generally if it runs on 98 it will run on XP.

    > Which doctype do you use for Russian, anyway?


    The doctype has nothing at all to do with language. Language support is
    handled by the charset.

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Sep 24, 2005
    #12
  13. Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:
    > "Lüpher Cypher" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:OE2Ze.2669$w74.451@trndny05...
    >
    >>I don't think doctype has that much influence, as everything works fine
    >>on my local server with en/ru/de encoding.. Here's the headers I use:
    >>
    >><?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1">
    >><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C/DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
    >>"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
    >><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">
    >><head>
    >> <title></title><meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
    >>content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />
    >></head>
    >>
    >>I believe the utf-8 is the crutial role in this :)
    >>
    >>
    >>lüph

    >
    >
    > So do I!
    > But can I save the name of the files in Russian (cyrillic)?
    > Or is it better with Latin fonts?
    >


    It does not matter, it's just a filename. If your system supports it,
    it'll be ok. But if the server does not, or you need to read a file with
    a "non-standard" name from a server, it may not work. Filenames have
    nothing to do with this..

    lüph
    =?UTF-8?B?TMO8cGhlciBDeXBoZXI=?=, Sep 24, 2005
    #13
  14. Leif K-Brooks wrote:
    > Lüpher Cypher wrote:
    >
    >><?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1">

    >
    >
    > Your XML prolog claims that the page is encoded using ISO-8859-1...
    >
    >
    >><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C/DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN"
    >>"http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
    >><html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en">
    >><head>
    >> <title></title><meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
    >>content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />

    >
    >
    > But the imitation Content-Type header says it's encoded using UTF-8.
    > Which is it?
    >
    >
    >></head>



    It should be UTF-8. I am not that much familiar with XHTML XML doc
    types, I just prefer to follow the rules :) If you can help me out with
    that - namely, multi-language pages, and what the header should be,
    that'd be more than welcome!

    Thanks!
    lüph
    =?UTF-8?B?TMO8cGhlciBDeXBoZXI=?=, Sep 24, 2005
    #14
  15. Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:
    > "Lüpher Cypher" <> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:mB2Ze.117$j_3.15@trndny07...
    >
    >>I have WinXP/Notepad. As soon as I tried to save a file with ru
    >>encoding, it told me that I have unicode characters there, and offered
    >>to choose the type I wish to save it in (press cancel) - after that,
    >>choose utf-8 in the encoding field when saving and everything should be

    >
    > ok..
    >
    >
    > I am using Win98/Wordpad on this computer.
    > WinXP does not seem to be compatible with the ftp program which I use at the
    > moment.
    > Which doctype do you use for Russian, anyway?
    >
    >
    >


    The ftp client you're using has nothing to do with it. The doctype, as
    far as I know, does not define which lang you use, it is mostly info. It
    is rather encoding that is used in meta tag. Although, I am not that
    savvy, maybe some tags as doctype or something do make difference :) But
    it's definetely not the ftp client.

    lüph
    =?UTF-8?B?TMO8cGhlciBDeXBoZXI=?=, Sep 24, 2005
    #15
  16. Lüpher Cypher wrote:

    Please do not top post.
    http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post

    > Ok, it has worked ok on my local host, but as I uploaded it to a server
    > (one of the free ones), I got something that looks more like the
    > non-unicode chars (say, Ð?Ñ?о).. I have this as my header:
    >
    > <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />


    That is not your header. Meta http equivalent is not equivalent to real
    http.
    http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/charset.html

    > I've also noticed that when I view the source the page starts with:
    > 


    At a wild guess I would say that that was a BOM.
    http://www.unicode.org/faq/utf_bom.html#BOM

    It shouldn't be visible if the file is being decoded by something that knows
    what character encoding it was saved in.

    > <?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1">


    Now your code is contradicting itself. UTF-8 and ISO-859-1 are DIFFERENT
    encoding.

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
    David Dorward, Sep 24, 2005
    #16
  17. On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, rf wrote:

    > The doctype has nothing at all to do with language.


    Right: the DOCTYPE specifies only the language of the DTD itself, and
    for W3C DTDs that is always "en" (English).

    > Language support is handled by the charset.


    Not officially, though. What "language" would you associate with
    iso-8859-1, anyway? Or with utf-8, for that matter?

    /Some/ browsers do make certain deductions about the language from
    /some/ charsets if they don't get a better source of information about
    the language. I have some observations on Mozilla discussed here:
    http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/browsers-fonts.html#Mozilla
    - although that doesn't include CJK, which may be where the language
    support is more important than anywhere else, but that happens to be
    outside my field of expertise, I'm afraid.

    WAI guidelines call for there always to be a definition of the primary
    language of a document on the <html> element, i.e <html lang="xx">. If
    the document contains snippets on some other language, then they
    should also be marked up with appropriate lang= attribute. (For
    example, IBM HPR uses these to decide how to pronounce the item, if
    the language is one of those which it supports.)

    Mozilla, at least, will primarily use the lang= attribute, where
    available, to influence choice of font to render each element, as I'm
    sure do some other browsers. (Unless the author has specified the
    font explicitly).

    hope this helps
    Alan J. Flavell, Sep 24, 2005
    #17
  18. On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Leif K-Brooks wrote:

    > Your XML prolog claims that the page is encoded using ISO-8859-1...


    > But the imitation Content-Type header says it's encoded using UTF-8.
    > Which is it?


    Amusingly, if the content was really encoded in us-ascii then neither
    of them would actually be wrong ;-)
    Alan J. Flavell, Sep 24, 2005
    #18
  19. "rf" <@invalid.com> skrev i meddelandet
    news:0Z3Ze.11630$...
    > Luigi Donatello Asero wrote:
    >
    > > I am using Win98/Wordpad on this computer.

    >
    > Windows 98 is not in general unicode compliant unless you have installed

    the
    > Microsoft Layer for Unicode (which you have not or you would not be asking
    > this question).


    Well, actually, I guess that I have already done it because I am posting in
    UTF-8


    > And there is no difference between Notepad and Wordpad. In fact these
    > programs are not editors at all, they are simply wrappers for the inbuilt
    > Windows Common Controls, "edit" and "richedit".
    >
    > > WinXP does not seem to be compatible with the ftp program which I use at

    > the
    > > moment.

    >
    > I doubt this. Generally if it runs on 98 it will run on XP.



    Well, actually, I said that because I tested it!
    There is a new version of the software which seems to be compatible but I do
    not know, yet, how to buy it without using credit cards, that mean by cash
    or by invoice.

    > > Which doctype do you use for Russian, anyway?

    >
    > The doctype has nothing at all to do with language. Language support is
    > handled by the charset.



    Ok.


    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    (sono italiano ma vivo in Svezia)
    (Ñ Ð¸Ñ‚Ð°Ð»ÑŒÑнец но Ñ Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ñƒ в Швеции )
    (我是 æ„大利人 , 但是 我 ä½ åœ¨ ç‘žå…¸)
    (minä olen Italian kansalainen, mutta minä asun Ruotsissa)
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Sep 24, 2005
    #19
  20. "Alan J. Flavell" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:pine.WNT.4.63.0509241056570.1488@ZORIN...
    >
    > On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, rf wrote:
    >
    > > The doctype has nothing at all to do with language.

    >
    > Right: the DOCTYPE specifies only the language of the DTD itself, and
    > for W3C DTDs that is always "en" (English).
    >
    > > Language support is handled by the charset.

    >
    > Not officially, though. What "language" would you associate with
    > iso-8859-1, anyway? Or with utf-8, for that matter?
    >
    > /Some/ browsers do make certain deductions about the language from
    > /some/ charsets if they don't get a better source of information about
    > the language. I have some observations on Mozilla discussed here:
    > http://ppewww.ph.gla.ac.uk/~flavell/charset/browsers-fonts.html#Mozilla
    > - although that doesn't include CJK, which may be where the language
    > support is more important than anywhere else, but that happens to be
    > outside my field of expertise, I'm afraid.
    >
    > WAI guidelines call for there always to be a definition of the primary
    > language of a document on the <html> element, i.e <html lang="xx">. If
    > the document contains snippets on some other language, then they
    > should also be marked up with appropriate lang= attribute. (For
    > example, IBM HPR uses these to decide how to pronounce the item, if
    > the language is one of those which it supports.)
    >
    > Mozilla, at least, will primarily use the lang= attribute, where
    > available, to influence choice of font to render each element, as I'm
    > sure do some other browsers. (Unless the author has specified the
    > font explicitly).
    >
    > hope this helps




    It probably does.

    --
    Luigi Donatello Asero
    (sono italiano ma vivo in Svezia)
    (Ñ Ð¸Ñ‚Ð°Ð»ÑŒÑнец но Ñ Ð¶Ð¸Ð²Ñƒ в Швеции )
    (我是 æ„大利人 , 但是 我 ä½ åœ¨ ç‘žå…¸)
    (minä olen Italian kansalainen, mutta minä asun Ruotsissa)
    https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Sep 24, 2005
    #20
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