ettiquette question

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Chris Pine, Apr 15, 2005.

  1. Chris Pine

    Chris Pine Guest

    How do you spell ettiquette? No, no, that's not really my question...

    Every time my tutorial gets mentioned on the ML (usually by me, but,
    flatteringly enough, not always :), I get a definite spike in my inbox
    of people saying thanks, or asking me questions about various aspects
    of Ruby or programming. (And I answer *every* email I get, in as
    helpful a way as I can, I am proud to state... though this takes up at
    least several hours a week if the tutorial was mentioned that week!)

    Now my tutorial has been around for a while, but people who are new
    are, of course, not going to know that. So my question:

    How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
    [ANN] announcement on the ML? I really don't have anything new to
    announce, and it would, in general, be annoying for someone to keep
    announcing the same project over and over again with no real change.
    However, this seems like a special case, since this is specifically
    aimed at people who are *new* to the ML. And, as I said, I only ask
    because I really do notice a spike every time it is mentioned.

    I know it's not the canonical "ruby for non-programmers" tutorial out
    there (though I'd like to apply for the position, if it exists :).
    But it is the only (completed) thing of its kind. (I would not
    consider why's Poignant Guide to be of the same kind; it's in a class
    all its own! I think it serves a very different need, and a different
    class of people. For example, I doubt any experienced Rubyists would
    get much out of my tutorial, much less find it entertaining, but I
    can't even read the Poignant Guide without my inhaler! Because, you
    know, it's funny. And I have asthma.)

    So let me know what you think, and *please* don't be shy about saying
    that you don't think it's ok.

    Thanks, all,

    Chris
     
    Chris Pine, Apr 15, 2005
    #1
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  2. Actually I think something like this would be a good idea, but it could
    be extended a bit. Maybe there could be something like an "intro to the
    ML" [ANN] every month, that could be something like an FAQ for people
    who are new. So you could have links to ruby-docs, why's guide, your
    LearnToProgram, and answer questions like where to go to find specific
    rails info, and any other types of newbie questions that come up. I know
    that I would have loved something like this 6 months ago (and probably
    would learn a few things now too).

    Then also, it could act something like the ruby weekly where new faq's
    could get added to the list every month.

    My 2c.

    Jon Raphaelson

    Chris Pine wrote:
    > How do you spell ettiquette? No, no, that's not really my question...
    >
    > Every time my tutorial gets mentioned on the ML (usually by me, but,
    > flatteringly enough, not always :), I get a definite spike in my inbox
    > of people saying thanks, or asking me questions about various aspects
    > of Ruby or programming. (And I answer *every* email I get, in as
    > helpful a way as I can, I am proud to state... though this takes up at
    > least several hours a week if the tutorial was mentioned that week!)
    >
    > Now my tutorial has been around for a while, but people who are new
    > are, of course, not going to know that. So my question:
    >
    > How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
    > [ANN] announcement on the ML? I really don't have anything new to
    > announce, and it would, in general, be annoying for someone to keep
    > announcing the same project over and over again with no real change.
    > However, this seems like a special case, since this is specifically
    > aimed at people who are *new* to the ML. And, as I said, I only ask
    > because I really do notice a spike every time it is mentioned.
    >
    > I know it's not the canonical "ruby for non-programmers" tutorial out
    > there (though I'd like to apply for the position, if it exists :).
    > But it is the only (completed) thing of its kind. (I would not
    > consider why's Poignant Guide to be of the same kind; it's in a class
    > all its own! I think it serves a very different need, and a different
    > class of people. For example, I doubt any experienced Rubyists would
    > get much out of my tutorial, much less find it entertaining, but I
    > can't even read the Poignant Guide without my inhaler! Because, you
    > know, it's funny. And I have asthma.)
    >
    > So let me know what you think, and *please* don't be shy about saying
    > that you don't think it's ok.
    >
    > Thanks, all,
    >
    > Chris
    >
    >
     
    Jon Raphaelson, Apr 15, 2005
    #2
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  3. Chris Pine

    Jeremy Henty Guest

    In article <>, Chris Pine wrote:

    > How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made
    > an [ANN] announcement on the ML? ... this seems like a special
    > case, since this is specifically aimed at people who are *new* to
    > the ML.


    Seems fine to me. It's really just a variation of the monthly
    "Welcome to this newsgroup" postings that lots of groups have and
    no-one thinks those are inappropriate. I'd expect the posting to be
    clearly marked as an announcement, but given that, no problems. I'd
    think such an posting should be at most monthly, but I'd happily bend
    that rule if it encouraged more people to look at Ruby.

    Cheers,

    Jeremy Henty
     
    Jeremy Henty, Apr 15, 2005
    #3
  4. Chris Pine, April 15:

    > How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
    > [ANN] announcement on the ML?


    Not great. This is something that goes into something more permanent
    than a mailing-list thread. Put a link to it on the RubyGarden Wiki,
    ask for it to be included in the documentation section on ruby-doc.org
    and ruby-lang.org, ask for it to be included in the welcome message to
    this mailing list,
    nikolai

    --
    Nikolai Weibull: now available free of charge at http://bitwi.se/!
    Born in Chicago, IL USA; currently residing in Gothenburg, Sweden.
    main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}
     
    Nikolai Weibull, Apr 15, 2005
    #4
  5. Hi Chris,

    thanks for asking! Although I think it's a good idea to do something
    regular, I'd prefer a single weekly posting which includes this as well as
    probably other useful pointers. That way we save bandwidth and bundle
    useful info at the same time. Now someone has to decide what should go in
    there... :)

    Kind regards

    robert

    "Chris Pine" <> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
    news:...
    > How do you spell ettiquette? No, no, that's not really my question...
    >
    > Every time my tutorial gets mentioned on the ML (usually by me, but,
    > flatteringly enough, not always :), I get a definite spike in my inbox
    > of people saying thanks, or asking me questions about various aspects
    > of Ruby or programming. (And I answer *every* email I get, in as
    > helpful a way as I can, I am proud to state... though this takes up at
    > least several hours a week if the tutorial was mentioned that week!)
    >
    > Now my tutorial has been around for a while, but people who are new
    > are, of course, not going to know that. So my question:
    >
    > How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
    > [ANN] announcement on the ML? I really don't have anything new to
    > announce, and it would, in general, be annoying for someone to keep
    > announcing the same project over and over again with no real change.
    > However, this seems like a special case, since this is specifically
    > aimed at people who are *new* to the ML. And, as I said, I only ask
    > because I really do notice a spike every time it is mentioned.
    >
    > I know it's not the canonical "ruby for non-programmers" tutorial out
    > there (though I'd like to apply for the position, if it exists :).
    > But it is the only (completed) thing of its kind. (I would not
    > consider why's Poignant Guide to be of the same kind; it's in a class
    > all its own! I think it serves a very different need, and a different
    > class of people. For example, I doubt any experienced Rubyists would
    > get much out of my tutorial, much less find it entertaining, but I
    > can't even read the Poignant Guide without my inhaler! Because, you
    > know, it's funny. And I have asthma.)
    >
    > So let me know what you think, and *please* don't be shy about saying
    > that you don't think it's ok.
    >
    > Thanks, all,
    >
    > Chris
    >
    >
    >
     
    Robert Klemme, Apr 15, 2005
    #5
  6. Chris Pine

    Guest

    Ruby-forum had a humongous collection of tutorials, pocket references,
    object/class hierarchy graphs etc. in a sticky thread, very convenient.
    Alexey: anytime soon?

    And, yeah, a link on the main ruby-lang.org page would be good.
     
    , Apr 15, 2005
    #6
  7. Chris Pine

    Mark Roseman Guest

    "Robert Klemme" <> wrote:
    > thanks for asking! Although I think it's a good idea to do something
    > regular, I'd prefer a single weekly posting which includes this as well as
    > probably other useful pointers. That way we save bandwidth and bundle
    > useful info at the same time. Now someone has to decide what should go in
    > there... :)


    Tcl and Python newsgroups have a weekly post, containing a dozen or so
    "highlights" from the newsgroup (hand-selected by a rotating editor),
    along with a big block of fairly static resources/tutorial links. Good
    way both for people who can't follow every post to catch the big or
    interesting things, as well as gives you this kind of regularly posted
    list.

    Search for "Tcl-URL!" or "Python-URL!" in Google groups.

    This would be great to have for Ruby.

    Mark
     
    Mark Roseman, Apr 15, 2005
    #7
  8. On Apr 15, 2005, at 8:09 AM, Mark Roseman wrote:

    > Tcl and Python newsgroups have a weekly post, containing a dozen or so
    > "highlights" from the newsgroup (hand-selected by a rotating editor),
    > along with a big block of fairly static resources/tutorial links. Good
    > way both for people who can't follow every post to catch the big or
    > interesting things, as well as gives you this kind of regularly posted
    > list.
    >
    > Search for "Tcl-URL!" or "Python-URL!" in Google groups.
    >
    > This would be great to have for Ruby.


    I agree, but isn't this what our FAQ is for?

    Hal, your thoughts?

    James Edward Gray II
     
    James Edward Gray II, Apr 15, 2005
    #8
  9. Chris Pine

    Hal Fulton Guest

    Chris Pine wrote:
    >
    > How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
    > [ANN] announcement on the ML? I really don't have anything new to
    > announce, and it would, in general, be annoying for someone to keep
    > announcing the same project over and over again with no real change.
    > However, this seems like a special case, since this is specifically
    > aimed at people who are *new* to the ML. And, as I said, I only ask
    > because I really do notice a spike every time it is mentioned.
    >


    Isn't there some kind of email that is generated when a person
    joins the mailing list? If so, that would be a good place for
    this.

    Only problem is that it wouldn't catch the people reading via
    the newsgroup.

    Would it help to put it in the comp.lang.ruby FAQ? I don't think
    it's currently there.


    Hal
     
    Hal Fulton, Apr 15, 2005
    #9
  10. Chris Pine

    Curt Hibbs Guest

    Hal Fulton wrote:
    > Chris Pine wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
    >> [ANN] announcement on the ML? I really don't have anything new to
    >> announce, and it would, in general, be annoying for someone to keep
    >> announcing the same project over and over again with no real change.
    >> However, this seems like a special case, since this is specifically
    >> aimed at people who are *new* to the ML. And, as I said, I only ask
    >> because I really do notice a spike every time it is mentioned.
    >>

    >
    > Isn't there some kind of email that is generated when a person
    > joins the mailing list? If so, that would be a good place for
    > this.
    >
    > Only problem is that it wouldn't catch the people reading via
    > the newsgroup.
    >
    > Would it help to put it in the comp.lang.ruby FAQ? I don't think
    > it's currently there.


    I still don't think this is good enough.

    I think it would be an excellent idea to have a weekly posting (similar
    to Ruby Weekly News) that would contain annotated pointers to Ruby
    Resources.

    I would maintain this on a RubyGarden page so that:
    - The email posting would be easy to create
    from the contents of the wiki page.
    - It could be linked from the FAQ and newsgroup
    FAQ (or anyone else that wanted to link
    to it.

    Curt
     
    Curt Hibbs, Apr 15, 2005
    #10
  11. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Hi.

    | And, yeah, a link on the main ruby-lang.org page would be good.

    Btw, who is the webmaster there? I sent the link of my Portuguese Ruby
    tutorial to put there but there was no update. :)

    []'s

    - ----------------------------
    Eustáquio "TaQ" Rangel

    http://beam.to/taq
    Usuário GNU/Linux no. 224050
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.2.7 (GNU/Linux)

    iD8DBQFCX9PVb6UiZnhJiLsRAlPlAKCHn3OR/o6Ppfmkn92puAIoOV2TfACeP3dO
    3Jry42ahDPB0/6ehHCBFtrk=
    =o6C4
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
     
    Eustaquio Rangel de Oliveira Jr., Apr 15, 2005
    #11
  12. Chris Pine

    Jeff Moss Guest

    Someone aught to maintain a "welcome to the list" email with a bunch of
    useful tutorials and such in it, links to the archive and all that, that
    users get as soon as they subscribe. I can't recall if there was such a
    thing when I subscribed, just a standard email with control addresses
    and stuff I think.

    -Jeff

    wrote:

    >Ruby-forum had a humongous collection of tutorials, pocket references,
    >object/class hierarchy graphs etc. in a sticky thread, very convenient.
    > Alexey: anytime soon?
    >
    >And, yeah, a link on the main ruby-lang.org page would be good.
    >
    >
    >
    >
     
    Jeff Moss, Apr 15, 2005
    #12
  13. Chris Pine

    Sy Guest

    The entry to that tutorial ought to simply be added to a regularly
    posted official news / update / FAQ, if one already exists.

    I agree with others with saying that it ought to go more permanently
    in the various off-list FAQs and resource lists. Of note, having it
    included in the mailing lists' welcome email to new subscribers would
    be perfect.

    Having said all that.. I read your and why's tutorials at about the
    same time.. and your perspective is just what I needed to learn from.
    In fact, just recently I went back to it as a quick reference for
    something I was working on. Thanks. =)
     
    Sy, Apr 15, 2005
    #13
  14. Curt Hibbs wrote:

    > I think it would be an excellent idea to have a weekly posting
    > (similar to Ruby Weekly News) that would contain annotated pointers to
    > Ruby Resources.


    Let's keep it short. The FAQ is daunting. I don't think I've ever read
    it completely. It's like the Constitution. I might read it if somebody
    could scrawl it out on parchment for me and get the RubyCentral
    delegates to ratify. (Why envisions his future palatial estate with a
    rotunda, bust of a nicely combed Matz, 23.1 carat Carmen Lucia gem, lock
    of son-shi's hair, FAQ under glass, etc.)

    Chris should do this on his own though, don't you think? I don't know
    of a Ruby tutorial out there which is as accessible as Chris' tutorial
    and it's worthless to put in a bunch of links in the message that may
    prove to just be distracting. I think Daniel Carrera's tutorial is the
    nearest: <http://www.math.umd.edu/~dcarrera/ruby/>

    Perhaps Chris could doll up his e-mail by highlighting a portion of the
    tutorial to expand upon, cite from, whatever.

    _why
     
    why the lucky stiff, Apr 15, 2005
    #14
  15. Chris Pine

    Chris Pine Guest

    OK...

    The general feel seems to be that people think it is sort of a good
    idea, as long as it includes other resources, or maybe should just be
    part of the FAQ.

    Not to disparage Hal or the FAQ in any way, but I'm not sure the FAQ
    is really something newbies read. Well, I never read it, anyway. I
    mean, I did, once upon a time, but that was only after I was into
    Ruby. (Is a non-rubyist really going to care who matz is, for
    example?)

    I'm not so much saying "I want to tell everyone about my site every
    other week" as "empirical evidence shows that a simple, personal
    reference to the site increases traffic quite a bit, which spreads the
    ruby word". Here's an excerpt from last night, for example:

    "I think I've learned more in 1 night reading your tutorial on
    Ruby than I learned in weeks of trying to learn VB5."

    (This obviously speaks more to the glory of Ruby than my tutorial, of course!)

    And I only get these emails after a post to the ML. Also, I think the
    *personal* invitation is key, here, because we are speaking to people
    *outside* the community, so we need to do the reaching.

    How about this: A bi-weekly announcement (separate from the FAQ,
    which is, I think, for a different audience) inviting people to Ruby,
    and offering to personally help them on their way. (Probably
    something along the lines of "If you need any help, feel free to email
    me, or just post your questions here! The people on this list have
    always helped me when I get stuck; they're a great bunch.") I'll
    follow that with three short links (tentatively in this order):

    1. my tutorial, if you are not a programmer already, or just want a
    gentle introduction

    2. the Poignant Guide, which captures, better than anything, the fun
    and the joy of Ruby

    3. the online Pickaxe (probably why's version, if he don't mind),
    sort of the Ruby Bible, perhaps with a reference to the fact that
    there is a 2.0

    This seems to accomplish something pretty different from what's out
    there now, and different from simply including some links in more
    permanent places. It's timely, it's personal... it just sort of feels
    happy. Like Ruby.

    :)

    So how does this ammended plan sound?

    Chris
     
    Chris Pine, Apr 15, 2005
    #15
  16. Chris Pine

    pat eyler Guest

    On 4/15/05, Chris Pine <> wrote:
    [plan elided]
    >
    > So how does this ammended plan sound?



    You've got my vote.

    >
    > Chris
    >
    >



    --
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because
    they want to know something else, and would therefore only
    misunderstand what we said
    - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
     
    pat eyler, Apr 15, 2005
    #16
  17. Chris Pine

    Bill Guindon Guest

    On 4/15/05, Chris Pine <> wrote:

    > How about this: A bi-weekly announcement (separate from the FAQ,
    > which is, I think, for a different audience) inviting people to Ruby,
    > and offering to personally help them on their way.


    +1

    > it just sort of feels happy. Like Ruby.


    I really like that line :)

    --
    Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)
     
    Bill Guindon, Apr 15, 2005
    #17
  18. --Apple-Mail-7--7419359
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
    Content-Type: text/plain;
    charset=US-ASCII;
    format=flowed

    +1

    On Apr 15, 2005, at 11:46 AM, Bill Guindon wrote:

    > On 4/15/05, Chris Pine <> wrote:
    >
    >> How about this: A bi-weekly announcement (separate from the FAQ,
    >> which is, I think, for a different audience) inviting people to Ruby,
    >> and offering to personally help them on their way.

    >
    > +1
    >
    >> it just sort of feels happy. Like Ruby.

    >
    > I really like that line :)
    >
    > --
    > Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla)
    >
    >

    -Ezra Zygmuntowicz
    Yakima Herald-Republic
    WebMaster
    509-577-7732


    --Apple-Mail-7--7419359--
     
    Ezra Zygmuntowicz, Apr 15, 2005
    #18
  19. On Apr 15, 2005, at 1:24 PM, Chris Pine wrote:

    > So how does this ammended plan sound?


    Go for it.

    James
     
    James Edward Gray II, Apr 15, 2005
    #19
  20. Chris Pine

    Sy Guest

    > On Apr 15, 2005, at 1:24 PM, Chris Pine wrote:
    >
    > > So how does this ammended plan sound?

    >


    -1

    Posting regularly seems like adding more noise to the ML. It's not
    relevant to people who have been here for more than a month, and not
    relevant to people who already do Ruby (and probably already know
    about your work)

    Don't the members of this ML have to pass through all sorts of other
    Ruby-related resources before finding us and signing up here? -- i.e.
    wouldn't it be more effective to make a permanent signpost at one of
    those resources?


    All I can say is that I am one of those newbies who such posting would
    be targetted towards, and I can guarantee that by the second posting
    I'd be annoyed. Yes, I'd set a filter to nuke further repeat posts.

    That having been said, I already did a _lot_ of research before
    signing up to the ML, and so I know about a good 80% of the basic news
    outlets, tutorials, books, etc. and that includes your tutorial.
    There is _always_ going to be more stuff out there to find, and I'd be
    pleased if someone posted a regular newsletter talking about the top
    five new Ruby-related websites.. but hearing the same old news would
    just not interest me.


    So, playing devil's advocate, I have to ask.. who is your audience and
    how can you best reach them? Frankly, I think the occasional random
    mention of a good resource like yours is better received if someone
    random responds to a thread with it.

    If you really wanted to be active (and also self-promote) then the
    best thing you could do is found a newbie mailing list (I'd sign up!)
    and every couple of weeks release a newsletter which included a
    tutorial excerpt, a new newbie challence and a couple of interesting
    resources. With community feedback, you wouldn't run out of
    interesting ideas for the next newsletter.

    A cool (searchable!) archive of such letters would be an excellent resource too!
     
    Sy, Apr 15, 2005
    #20
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