ettiquette question

[Chris Pine]

How do you spell ettiquette? No, no, that's not really my question...

Every time my tutorial gets mentioned on the ML (usually by me, but,
flatteringly enough, not always , I get a definite spike in my inbox
of people saying thanks, or asking me questions about various aspects
of Ruby or programming. (And I answer *every* email I get, in as
helpful a way as I can, I am proud to state... though this takes up at
least several hours a week if the tutorial was mentioned that week!)

Now my tutorial has been around for a while, but people who are new
are, of course, not going to know that. So my question:

How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
[ANN] announcement on the ML? I really don't have anything new to
announce, and it would, in general, be annoying for someone to keep
announcing the same project over and over again with no real change.
However, this seems like a special case, since this is specifically
aimed at people who are *new* to the ML. And, as I said, I only ask
because I really do notice a spike every time it is mentioned.

I know it's not the canonical "ruby for non-programmers" tutorial out
there (though I'd like to apply for the position, if it exists .
But it is the only (completed) thing of its kind. (I would not
consider why's Poignant Guide to be of the same kind; it's in a class
all its own! I think it serves a very different need, and a different
class of people. For example, I doubt any experienced Rubyists would
get much out of my tutorial, much less find it entertaining, but I
can't even read the Poignant Guide without my inhaler! Because, you
know, it's funny. And I have asthma.)

So let me know what you think, and *please* don't be shy about saying
that you don't think it's ok.

Thanks, all,

Chris

 

[Jon Raphaelson]

Actually I think something like this would be a good idea, but it could
be extended a bit. Maybe there could be something like an "intro to the
ML" [ANN] every month, that could be something like an FAQ for people
who are new. So you could have links to ruby-docs, why's guide, your
LearnToProgram, and answer questions like where to go to find specific
rails info, and any other types of newbie questions that come up. I know
that I would have loved something like this 6 months ago (and probably
would learn a few things now too).

Then also, it could act something like the ruby weekly where new faq's
could get added to the list every month.

My 2c.

Jon Raphaelson

 

[Jeremy Henty]

How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made
an [ANN] announcement on the ML? ... this seems like a special
case, since this is specifically aimed at people who are *new* to
the ML.

Seems fine to me. It's really just a variation of the monthly
"Welcome to this newsgroup" postings that lots of groups have and
no-one thinks those are inappropriate. I'd expect the posting to be
clearly marked as an announcement, but given that, no problems. I'd
think such an posting should be at most monthly, but I'd happily bend
that rule if it encouraged more people to look at Ruby.

Cheers,

Jeremy Henty

 

[Nikolai Weibull]

Chris Pine, April 15:

How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
[ANN] announcement on the ML?

Not great. This is something that goes into something more permanent
than a mailing-list thread. Put a link to it on the RubyGarden Wiki,
ask for it to be included in the documentation section on ruby-doc.org
and ruby-lang.org, ask for it to be included in the welcome message to
this mailing list,
nikolai

 

[Robert Klemme]

Hi Chris,

thanks for asking! Although I think it's a good idea to do something
regular, I'd prefer a single weekly posting which includes this as well as
probably other useful pointers. That way we save bandwidth and bundle
useful info at the same time. Now someone has to decide what should go in
there...

Kind regards

robert

 

[gene.tani]

Ruby-forum had a humongous collection of tutorials, pocket references,
object/class hierarchy graphs etc. in a sticky thread, very convenient.
Alexey: anytime soon?

And, yeah, a link on the main ruby-lang.org page would be good.

 

[Mark Roseman]

thanks for asking! Although I think it's a good idea to do something
regular, I'd prefer a single weekly posting which includes this as well as
probably other useful pointers. That way we save bandwidth and bundle
useful info at the same time. Now someone has to decide what should go in
there...

Tcl and Python newsgroups have a weekly post, containing a dozen or so
"highlights" from the newsgroup (hand-selected by a rotating editor),
along with a big block of fairly static resources/tutorial links. Good
way both for people who can't follow every post to catch the big or
interesting things, as well as gives you this kind of regularly posted
list.

Search for "Tcl-URL!" or "Python-URL!" in Google groups.

This would be great to have for Ruby.

Mark

 

[James Edward Gray II]

Tcl and Python newsgroups have a weekly post, containing a dozen or so
"highlights" from the newsgroup (hand-selected by a rotating editor),
along with a big block of fairly static resources/tutorial links. Good
way both for people who can't follow every post to catch the big or
interesting things, as well as gives you this kind of regularly posted
list.

Search for "Tcl-URL!" or "Python-URL!" in Google groups.

This would be great to have for Ruby.

I agree, but isn't this what our FAQ is for?

Hal, your thoughts?

James Edward Gray II

 

[Hal Fulton]

How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
[ANN] announcement on the ML? I really don't have anything new to
announce, and it would, in general, be annoying for someone to keep
announcing the same project over and over again with no real change.
However, this seems like a special case, since this is specifically
aimed at people who are *new* to the ML. And, as I said, I only ask
because I really do notice a spike every time it is mentioned.

Isn't there some kind of email that is generated when a person
joins the mailing list? If so, that would be a good place for
this.

Only problem is that it wouldn't catch the people reading via
the newsgroup.

Would it help to put it in the comp.lang.ruby FAQ? I don't think
it's currently there.


Hal

 

[Curt Hibbs]

How would people feel if every other week (or every month?) I made an
[ANN] announcement on the ML? I really don't have anything new to
announce, and it would, in general, be annoying for someone to keep
announcing the same project over and over again with no real change.
However, this seems like a special case, since this is specifically
aimed at people who are *new* to the ML. And, as I said, I only ask
because I really do notice a spike every time it is mentioned.

Isn't there some kind of email that is generated when a person
joins the mailing list? If so, that would be a good place for
this.

Only problem is that it wouldn't catch the people reading via
the newsgroup.

Would it help to put it in the comp.lang.ruby FAQ? I don't think
it's currently there.

I still don't think this is good enough.

I think it would be an excellent idea to have a weekly posting (similar
to Ruby Weekly News) that would contain annotated pointers to Ruby
Resources.

I would maintain this on a RubyGarden page so that:
- The email posting would be easy to create
from the contents of the wiki page.
- It could be linked from the FAQ and newsgroup
FAQ (or anyone else that wanted to link
to it.

Curt

 

[Eustaquio Rangel de Oliveira Jr.]

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Hi.

| And, yeah, a link on the main ruby-lang.org page would be good.

Btw, who is the webmaster there? I sent the link of my Portuguese Ruby
tutorial to put there but there was no update.

[]'s

- ----------------------------
Eustáquio "TaQ" Rangel
(e-mail address removed)
http://beam.to/taq
Usuário GNU/Linux no. 224050
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[Jeff Moss]

Someone aught to maintain a "welcome to the list" email with a bunch of
useful tutorials and such in it, links to the archive and all that, that
users get as soon as they subscribe. I can't recall if there was such a
thing when I subscribed, just a standard email with control addresses
and stuff I think.

-Jeff

 

[Sy]

The entry to that tutorial ought to simply be added to a regularly
posted official news / update / FAQ, if one already exists.

I agree with others with saying that it ought to go more permanently
in the various off-list FAQs and resource lists. Of note, having it
included in the mailing lists' welcome email to new subscribers would
be perfect.

Having said all that.. I read your and why's tutorials at about the
same time.. and your perspective is just what I needed to learn from.
In fact, just recently I went back to it as a quick reference for
something I was working on. Thanks. =)

 

[why the lucky stiff]

I think it would be an excellent idea to have a weekly posting
(similar to Ruby Weekly News) that would contain annotated pointers to
Ruby Resources.

Let's keep it short. The FAQ is daunting. I don't think I've ever read
it completely. It's like the Constitution. I might read it if somebody
could scrawl it out on parchment for me and get the RubyCentral
delegates to ratify. (Why envisions his future palatial estate with a
rotunda, bust of a nicely combed Matz, 23.1 carat Carmen Lucia gem, lock
of son-shi's hair, FAQ under glass, etc.)

Chris should do this on his own though, don't you think? I don't know
of a Ruby tutorial out there which is as accessible as Chris' tutorial
and it's worthless to put in a bunch of links in the message that may
prove to just be distracting. I think Daniel Carrera's tutorial is the
nearest: <http://www.math.umd.edu/~dcarrera/ruby/>

Perhaps Chris could doll up his e-mail by highlighting a portion of the
tutorial to expand upon, cite from, whatever.

_why

 

[Chris Pine]

OK...

The general feel seems to be that people think it is sort of a good
idea, as long as it includes other resources, or maybe should just be
part of the FAQ.

Not to disparage Hal or the FAQ in any way, but I'm not sure the FAQ
is really something newbies read. Well, I never read it, anyway. I
mean, I did, once upon a time, but that was only after I was into
Ruby. (Is a non-rubyist really going to care who matz is, for
example?)

I'm not so much saying "I want to tell everyone about my site every
other week" as "empirical evidence shows that a simple, personal
reference to the site increases traffic quite a bit, which spreads the
ruby word". Here's an excerpt from last night, for example:

"I think I've learned more in 1 night reading your tutorial on
Ruby than I learned in weeks of trying to learn VB5."

(This obviously speaks more to the glory of Ruby than my tutorial, of course!)

And I only get these emails after a post to the ML. Also, I think the
*personal* invitation is key, here, because we are speaking to people
*outside* the community, so we need to do the reaching.

How about this: A bi-weekly announcement (separate from the FAQ,
which is, I think, for a different audience) inviting people to Ruby,
and offering to personally help them on their way. (Probably
something along the lines of "If you need any help, feel free to email
me, or just post your questions here! The people on this list have
always helped me when I get stuck; they're a great bunch.") I'll
follow that with three short links (tentatively in this order):

1. my tutorial, if you are not a programmer already, or just want a
gentle introduction

2. the Poignant Guide, which captures, better than anything, the fun
and the joy of Ruby

3. the online Pickaxe (probably why's version, if he don't mind),
sort of the Ruby Bible, perhaps with a reference to the fact that
there is a 2.0

This seems to accomplish something pretty different from what's out
there now, and different from simply including some links in more
permanent places. It's timely, it's personal... it just sort of feels
happy. Like Ruby.



So how does this ammended plan sound?

Chris

 

[pat eyler]

So how does this ammended plan sound?

You've got my vote.

 

[Bill Guindon]

How about this: A bi-weekly announcement (separate from the FAQ,
which is, I think, for a different audience) inviting people to Ruby,
and offering to personally help them on their way.
+1

it just sort of feels happy. Like Ruby.

I really like that line

 

[Ezra Zygmuntowicz]

--Apple-Mail-7--7419359
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII;
format=flowed

+1

I really like that line

-Ezra Zygmuntowicz
Yakima Herald-Republic
WebMaster
509-577-7732
(e-mail address removed)

--Apple-Mail-7--7419359--

 

[James Edward Gray II]

So how does this ammended plan sound?

Go for it.

James

 

[Sy]

-1

Posting regularly seems like adding more noise to the ML. It's not
relevant to people who have been here for more than a month, and not
relevant to people who already do Ruby (and probably already know
about your work)

Don't the members of this ML have to pass through all sorts of other
Ruby-related resources before finding us and signing up here? -- i.e.
wouldn't it be more effective to make a permanent signpost at one of
those resources?


All I can say is that I am one of those newbies who such posting would
be targetted towards, and I can guarantee that by the second posting
I'd be annoyed. Yes, I'd set a filter to nuke further repeat posts.

That having been said, I already did a _lot_ of research before
signing up to the ML, and so I know about a good 80% of the basic news
outlets, tutorials, books, etc. and that includes your tutorial.
There is _always_ going to be more stuff out there to find, and I'd be
pleased if someone posted a regular newsletter talking about the top
five new Ruby-related websites.. but hearing the same old news would
just not interest me.


So, playing devil's advocate, I have to ask.. who is your audience and
how can you best reach them? Frankly, I think the occasional random
mention of a good resource like yours is better received if someone
random responds to a thread with it.

If you really wanted to be active (and also self-promote) then the
best thing you could do is found a newbie mailing list (I'd sign up!)
and every couple of weeks release a newsletter which included a
tutorial excerpt, a new newbie challence and a couple of interesting
resources. With community feedback, you wouldn't run out of
interesting ideas for the next newsletter.

A cool (searchable!) archive of such letters would be an excellent resource too!