[EVALUATION] - E04 - Leadership! Google, Guido van Rossum, PSF

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Python Leadership was a weakness [1] and becomes now a threat for
python, thanks to Mr. van Rossums employment at Google.

-

I've wrote the Leadership list prioritized (Google rules, Mr. van Rossum
follows, PSF watches and accepts).

The core developer of an open-source-project is 'captured' by an giant
(Google).

The giant does not inform the community directly, e.g. whilst posting
an official statement to this media or with an official anouncement
(which clarifies the details of the deal).

Mr. van Rossum does not inform the community directly.

The Open Source Project (PSF) does not inform the community directly.

Just a thread with a little bit rumour.

Guido at Google
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/07c299b817dca256

Really, this does not make a very professional impression.

And this has of course nothing to do with "Leadership" - which should
protect an community from wasting time and energy with unnecessary
assumptions and speculations.

-

[1]

Within this thread (which contained a simple rational change-suggestion)
i've finally contacted the foundation.

[EVALUATION] - E02 - Support for MinGW Open Source Compiler
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/msg/0d2aad11f0516918

The foundation had reacted by email, but just with some justifications.

Mr. van Rossum has reacted, too. This led to some funny (and off-topic)
conversation, which was closed to be published (but finally he decided
opposite).

And very finally he suggested that I suffer from some mental disease.
Many people simplify: "what I don't understand, must be nuts".

I hope that he understands now (possibly he has the courage for an
apology?):

http://lazaridis.com/core/index.html

..

 

[Harald Armin Massa]

Guido at Google: a message in THE public forum c.l.p.

A confirmation by Martellibot, that Guido is IN FACT sitting 15m
distant from him; and everybody in Python knows where Martellibot has
his desk.

Can it get more official than this?

yeah:
a confirmation by Greg Stein @ Google within slashdot, that Guido is
working at Google.

I am sure that more people in the Python community are reading c.l.p.
and /. than the washington post, the people affected have been
informed.

I guess that's as formal and official as it can get.

And concerning Guido, Python, community and leadership:

Guido is the designer, the creator of Python. He has nearly unlimeted
trust in his design decisions: we all know, that he is THE gifted
language designer. His proclamations are accepted because he has proven
over time that he knows what's best for the language.

Allow me to quote Greg Stein:
"Ha! Guido would quit in a heartbeat if you tried to make him manage
people. That just isn't where he's at. He's absolutely brilliant and
loves to write excellent code. Great. We're gonna let him do just that
"

So, Google with their geek-version of the Playboy-Mansion, free massage
parleurs, free lunch and dinner and best recruitment tactics on the
planet and the known universe will not be able to make Guido manage
people.

Somehow the Python community managed itself through the years... Python
grew healthy and steadily; forked less then usual, inspired other
languages and got faster and faster and faster.

Maybe only mediocre and less ideas need a great leader. Maybe a great
idea can lead for itself?

Harald

--
GHUM Harald Massa
persuadere et programmare
Harald Armin Massa
Reinsburgstraße 202b
70197 Stuttgart
0173/9409607

 

[Martin P. Hellwig]

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
<cut>
So I guess you volunteer http://www.python.org/psf/volunteer.html ?

 

[Michael]

[ panic, fear, worry ]

What's wrong with just saying "Congratulations!" ? First thing I thought was
"ooh, maybe Guido will be able to work on P3K there" - after all that would
benefit Google *and* everyone else

(Especially if he uses PyPy to experiment and play in ...

Merry Christmas/Happy New Year


Michael.

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

[ panic, fear, worry ]

What's wrong with just saying "Congratulations!" ?

nothing.

But enouth people do this.

I am focusing on weaknesses & threats:

http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/graph/analysis.html

First thing I thought was
"ooh, maybe Guido will be able to work on P3K there" - after all that would
benefit Google *and* everyone else

My main intrest is to see python pass this simple evaluation (currently
it fails):

http://lazaridis.com/case/lang/python.html

(Especially if he uses PyPy to experiment and play in ...

Merry Christmas/Happy New Year

Michael.

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
<cut>
So I guess you volunteer http://www.python.org/psf/volunteer.html ?

I volunteer and contribute already (with a general validity and python
specific analysis)

A mediator should communicate the findings and suggestion (after
verifying them) to the responsibles / community:

http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/process.html#mediator

This would include to pass the relevant ones to the list you've mentioned:

http://www.python.org/psf/volunteer.html

-

TAG.efficiency.process.mediator

..

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Harald Armin Massa wrote:
[...] - (comments)

Thank you for your comments.

-

TAG.python.evolution.negate.apotheosis

..

 

[Robert Hicks]

Guido has never been, is not, and will not in the future be, a threat
to Python. End of story.

Unless of course aliens come into play. You never know.

Robert

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Guido has never been, is not, and will not in the future be, a threat
to Python. End of story.

Unless of course aliens come into play. You never know.

Robert

-

TAG.python.evolution.negate.apotheosis.faith

..

 

[Martin P. Hellwig]

I volunteer and contribute already (with a general validity and python
specific analysis)

A mediator should communicate the findings and suggestion (after
verifying them) to the responsibles / community:

http://lazaridis.com/efficiency/process.html#mediator

This would include to pass the relevant ones to the list you've mentioned:

http://www.python.org/psf/volunteer.html

-

TAG.efficiency.process.mediator

Last time I checked a "mediator" otherwise known to me as a
communication manager, is only effective when he/she is recognized as
authoritative by the participating group _and_ him/herself.

As from other posts I read that the last part is the issue, well since
this is a voluntary bunch of people with a slightly social democratic
architecture you fall back on spokesman and that can be anybody,
including or perhaps even especially you.

The only thing that holds "you" theoretically back is "acknowledged
authority by the participating group _and_ yourself" and of course the
resource for "restricted" information.
For the first part you got my vote, for second, well that should grow in
time.

 

[Ilias Lazaridis]

Last time I checked a "mediator" otherwise known to me as a
communication manager, is only effective when he/she is recognized as
authoritative by the participating group _and_ him/herself.
ok

As from other posts I read that the last part is the issue, well since
this is a voluntary bunch of people with a slightly social democratic
architecture you fall back on spokesman and that can be anybody,
including or perhaps even especially you.
ok

The only thing that holds "you" theoretically back is "acknowledged
authority by the participating group _and_ yourself" and of course the
resource for "restricted" information.

what do you mean by "resource for "restricted" information"?

For the first part you got my vote, for second, well that should grow in
time.

second part = "resource for "restricted" information" ?


-

(you can use private email if you prefere. If so, I will post an summary
back to the thread).

-

[sidenote: I am currently preparing diagramms, which will demonstrate
the several processes more clearly.]

..

 

[Martin P. Hellwig]

Ilias Lazaridis wrote:

what do you mean by "resource for "restricted" information"?

Well, I mean that you should know before the others that Guido is
working for google otherwise such a publication is a bit late ,
nevertheless better late then never.

second part = "resource for "restricted" information" ?

yup
<cut>

 

[Anton Vredegoor]

[ panic, fear, worry ]

What's wrong with just saying "Congratulations!" ? First thing I thought was
"ooh, maybe Guido will be able to work on P3K there" - after all that would
benefit Google *and* everyone else

Google's not a nice company (yeah, I know I'm posting from a google
account). If you look at their job requirements it's clear they will
only hire people with long backstabbing histories. There seems to be no
room left for world improving undamaged souls in that company.

(Especially if he uses PyPy to experiment and play in ...

Yes PyPy could save Python, or destroy the world. I have the impression
not many enough people realize that a selfhosting programming language
is something on the same level as a nano assembler or an artificial
intelligence. There is not much time anymore for idealists to start
trying to save the world, and I don't think we can count on google in
that respect.

Anton

'make my day, prove me wrong'

 

[Robert Kern]

[ panic, fear, worry ]

What's wrong with just saying "Congratulations!" ? First thing I thought was
"ooh, maybe Guido will be able to work on P3K there" - after all that would
benefit Google *and* everyone else

Google's not a nice company (yeah, I know I'm posting from a google
account). If you look at their job requirements it's clear they will
only hire people with long backstabbing histories. There seems to be no
room left for world improving undamaged souls in that company.

I have a friend who works at Google. He has no backstabbing history at all. Stop
insulting my friends.

For Software Engineer:

"""
Requirements:

* BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent (PhD a plus).
* Several years of software development experience.
* Enthusiasm for solving interesting problems.
* Experience with Unix/Linux or Windows environments, C++ development,
distributed systems, machine learning, information retrieval, network
programming and/or developing large software systems a plus.
"""

I don't see any "damaged soul" requirement.

Yes PyPy could save Python, or destroy the world. I have the impression
not many enough people realize that a selfhosting programming language
is something on the same level as a nano assembler or an artificial
intelligence.

??? What the hell are you smoking? We already have self-hosting programming
languages.

Anton

'make my day, prove me wrong'

Prove yourself right.

--
Robert Kern
(e-mail address removed)

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

 

[Anton Vredegoor]

I have a friend who works at Google. He has no backstabbing history at all. Stop
insulting my friends.

Your friends work for people who would never hire me. My resume sucks,
but I'm not a bad person or a mediocre programmer. They sold out.

For Software Engineer:

"""
Requirements:

* BS or MS in Computer Science or equivalent (PhD a plus).

Right here.

* Several years of software development experience.
* Enthusiasm for solving interesting problems.
* Experience with Unix/Linux or Windows environments, C++ development,
distributed systems, machine learning, information retrieval, network
programming and/or developing large software systems a plus.
"""

I don't see any "damaged soul" requirement.

I do. Experience here is an eufemism for having worked for the man.

??? What the hell are you smoking? We already have self-hosting programming
languages.

Yes. We have humans too.

Prove yourself right.

Ok. That's a bit harder. I suppose we agree that if we have an
intelligent program that is more intelligent than a human and have this
program design an even more intelligent program than things start to
accelerate pretty fast?

Now the combination of a programmer with a tool (program) that can be
used to make a better tool. This gives a better human-machine
combination, which then can be used to further improve the combination.
I don't think I have completely proven my point now, but since the
danger is very real and big, coming close is already reason enough to
watch this carefully. Why hasn't it happened yet with lisp? I don't
know, why didn't the world get destroyed by all out atomic warfare?
Couldn't it have happened?

If we create AI why would AI keep us around if we ourselves won't even
hire people that do not comply to absurdly specific preconditions?
Don't we let our poor people starve in the undeveloped countries or
even in our own cities? If we want to prove we belong to the next world
we should start now. Open work communities where everyone can start
working and get paid. The same thing as open source code or usenet but
now with money for everyone.

Anton

'sorry, I don't want to start a flamewar, but I really believe what I
wrote here'

 

[=?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=]

Google's not a nice company (yeah, I know I'm posting from a google
account). If you look at their job requirements it's clear they will
only hire people with long backstabbing histories. There seems to be no
room left for world improving undamaged souls in that company.


Yes PyPy could save Python, or destroy the world. I have the impression
not many enough people realize that a selfhosting programming language
is something on the same level as a nano assembler or an artificial
intelligence. There is not much time anymore for idealists to start
trying to save the world, and I don't think we can count on google in
that respect.

Huh?

 

[Mike Meyer]

Ok. That's a bit harder. I suppose we agree that if we have an
intelligent program that is more intelligent than a human and have this
program design an even more intelligent program than things start to
accelerate pretty fast?

There's your fundamental flaw. Programs aren't intelligent, any more
than submarines swim.

Now the combination of a programmer with a tool (program) that can be
used to make a better tool. This gives a better human-machine
combination, which then can be used to further improve the combination.

Key word: "tool". Nothing is said about the intelligence of said
tool. It doesn't have to be intelligent at all. It just has to be able
to do one single task better than the human. The intelligence in this
combination is coming from the human.

I don't think I have completely proven my point now, but since the
danger is very real and big, coming close is already reason enough to
watch this carefully.

We aren't any closer to having a "real" AI than we were in the 60s. On
my list of man-made, world-ending catastrophes, a world-dominating AI
is easily outranked by grey goo, and just barely beats out the nine
billion names of god.

'sorry, I don't want to start a flamewar, but I really believe what I
wrote here'

I think you're taking to many bad scifi movies seriously.

<mike

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

We aren't any closer to having a "real" AI than we were in the 60s.

note that the name of the the poster who started this thread only needs minimal
adjustments to become an anagram for "alien lizard AI", which might indicate that
the government has access to some kind of AI, but that it's completely useless.

</F>

 

[Robert Kern]

Your friends work for people who would never hire me.

This is not a crime.

My resume sucks,
but I'm not a bad person or a mediocre programmer.

Okay. Still has nothing to do with my friend or anyone else who works at Google.
Still doesn't mean my friend has a "backstabbing history," whatever that is.

They sold out.

<rolls eyes> No, he accepted a job. He has a family to feed. Google may or may
not be unethical, but their requirement for experienced developers is not
unethical. Just because they might not hire you doesn't mean they are unethical.
They simply have needs that you can't fill.

Your sense of entitlement is showing.

Right here.


I do. Experience here is an eufemism for having worked for the man.

Who is "the man"? If Google were to hire you with no experience, would you then
have "worked for the man"?

Yes. We have humans too.

Some Lisps are self-hosting. C is self-hosting. The world is not yet destroyed.
Do you understand what "self-hosting" means?

Ok. That's a bit harder. I suppose we agree that if we have an
intelligent program that is more intelligent than a human and have this
program design an even more intelligent program than things start to
accelerate pretty fast?

PyPy will not bring about the Singularity.

--
Robert Kern
(e-mail address removed)

"In the fields of hell where the grass grows high
Are the graves of dreams allowed to die."
-- Richard Harter

 

[Hans Nowak]

PyPy will not bring about the Singularity.

But if it did, imagine how cool that would look on the developers
resumes...