Event Handling via CSS

Discussion in 'Javascript' started by c.janardhanreddy@gmail.com, Apr 20, 2009.

  1. Guest

    Hi,

    I have seen sites using css attribute like "hover" to make dynamic
    websites.

    In some sites most elements don't have direct event handlers like
    'mouseover', 'mouseout' etc attached to html elements. Instead they
    use CSS. Could any one you give me some idea about invoking
    JavaScript event handlers via css for CSS attributes like "hover"?

    E.g: In hp.com, tabs like 'Support & Drivers' or 'Shop for Products'
    are <a> HTML elements which don't have any event handlers directly
    attached to them. Still they modify the DOM on mouseover/out. I
    believe they are done via CSS. Could any body of you please give me
    some guidance regarding this ?

    Thanks in Advance,
    Janardhan
     
    , Apr 20, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Erwin Moller Guest

    schreef:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have seen sites using css attribute like "hover" to make dynamic
    > websites.
    >
    > In some sites most elements don't have direct event handlers like
    > 'mouseover', 'mouseout' etc attached to html elements. Instead they
    > use CSS. Could any one you give me some idea about invoking
    > JavaScript event handlers via css for CSS attributes like "hover"?
    >
    > E.g: In hp.com, tabs like 'Support & Drivers' or 'Shop for Products'
    > are <a> HTML elements which don't have any event handlers directly
    > attached to them. Still they modify the DOM on mouseover/out. I
    > believe they are done via CSS. Could any body of you please give me
    > some guidance regarding this ?
    >
    > Thanks in Advance,
    > Janardhan
    >


    Hi,

    You do not define JavaScript eventhandlers in your CSS declaration.
    You should add them via JavaScript.
    The hover behaviour you mentioned is something that is fully defined in
    CSS. (Just google for 'hover css')

    Regards,
    Erwin Moller


    --
    "There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
    make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
    other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
    deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
    -- C.A.R. Hoare
     
    Erwin Moller, Apr 20, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. You appear to have acquired a number of misconceptions and false
    terminology, which hinder understanding.

    wrote:
    > I have seen sites using css attribute like "hover" to make dynamic
    > websites.


    Those are pseudo-classes, not attributes:

    <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#dynamic-pseudo-classes>

    > In some sites most elements don't have direct event handlers like
    > 'mouseover', 'mouseout' etc attached to html elements. Instead they
    > use CSS. Could any one you give me some idea about invoking
    > JavaScript event handlers via css for CSS attributes like "hover"?


    `mouseover', `mouseout' etc. are _not_ "event handlers", those are event
    types. There is also no such thing as "JavaScript event handlers". And
    even if there were, you could not "invoke" them "via css"; CSS is merely
    a formatting language.

    <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/>

    When the user or a program does something in a user agent, an event
    occurs. That may create an event object to propagate the event in the
    document tree.

    <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-flow>
    <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.html#Events-flow>

    It may also, rather independently of the DOM, trigger a style sheet selector
    that uses a dynamic pseudo-class.

    DOM implementations provide internal event-handlers so that code may
    handle these events. Event-handlers call one or more event-listeners; the
    latter can be added with implementations that implement specified interfaces.

    <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-EventListener>
    <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.html#Events-listeners>

    HTML elements provide event-handler attributes which value is supposed to be
    code written in a scripting language that is executed when the event occurs.

    <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.3>

    (Here event-handler attributes are called "events"; watch the date of this
    Specification and don't let yourself be confused by this.)

    DOM objects may provide proprietary event-handler properties which value is
    supposed to be (a reference to) a callable object that contains the code to
    be executed on event. If such a DOM object represents an element in the
    document, then that element does not need to have one of the aforementioned
    event-handler attributes specified, provided there is an event-handler
    property for that attribute.

    There are also proprietary events and corresponding event-handler properties
    that have no corresponding event-handler attribute in Valid markup, e.g.
    <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element#Event_Handlers>

    (Noticed that there has been no mentioning of JavaScript until here? For
    these features are independent of a programming language.)

    Now, DOM implementations also provide properties that implement interfaces
    of CSS-related APIs:

    <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html>

    You can use these properties to manipulate style sheets, e.g.

    element.style.display = "none";

    to prevent an the element that is represented by the object `element' refers
    to from being rendered.

    However, you only need to do this for user agents that do not support the
    corresponding CSS property, or pseudo-class for the element in question, or
    CSS at all.

    > E.g: In hp.com, tabs like 'Support & Drivers' or 'Shop for Products'
    > are <a> HTML elements which don't have any event handlers directly
    > attached to them. Still they modify the DOM on mouseover/out.


    If anything, they would modify the document tree; the DOM is a *model*, an
    API instead, and usually not modified by an application using it. (In fact,
    it is strongly recommended against trying to modify a DOM implementation on
    the fly; the objects provided are *host* *objects*, not, e.g. ECMAScript
    native objects.)

    > I believe they are done via CSS.


    The content is styled with CSS, but I presume the content is exchanged with
    the IXMLHTTPRequest API (XHR, also known as AJAX -- Asynchronous JavaScript
    and XML).

    <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/AJAX>

    Of course, this doesn't work where XHR support is unavailable, and it can
    cause considerable delays if XHR support is available but there is small
    bandwidth or the display device is a mobile one.

    In fact, the whole HP website is not exactly a showcase of good Web
    authoring. Starts with

    <http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hp.com%2F%23Support>
    | 105 Errors, 15 warnings

    <http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css3&warning=2&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hp.com%2F%23Support>
    | Sorry! We found the following errors (6)

    and ends with their using jQuery from which you should stay far away at
    least at this point of its development. (Search the archives. JFTR:
    I have very fast Internet access here, and a reasonably fast CPU, OS, and
    browser[1]; yet switching from one section to the other through mouseover
    takes about half a second! Talk about code efficiency ...)

    > Could any body of you please give me some guidance regarding this ?


    [x] done


    HTH

    PointedEars
    ___________
    [1] Cable Internet access, 15000 kbps downstream top;
    Pentium M 740, 1 GB RAM;
    Debian GNU/Linux lenny/testing/unstable/experimental,
    Linux 2.6.28.8-20090322.180402, 1 GB Swap;
    KDE 3.5.9.dfsg.1-6, Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0.6
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Apr 20, 2009
    #3
  4. SAM Guest

    Le 4/20/09 2:37 PM, a écrit :
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have seen sites using css attribute like "hover" to make dynamic
    > websites.
    >
    > In some sites most elements don't have direct event handlers like
    > 'mouseover', 'mouseout' etc attached to html elements. Instead they
    > use CSS. Could any one you give me some idea about invoking
    > JavaScript event handlers via css for CSS attributes like "hover"?
    >
    > E.g: In hp.com, tabs like 'Support & Drivers' or 'Shop for Products'
    > are <a> HTML elements which don't have any event handlers directly
    > attached to them. Still they modify the DOM on mouseover/out. I
    > believe they are done via CSS. Could any body of you please give me
    > some guidance regarding this ?


    After the other answers you can go to a site that uses and demosntrates
    this "css-event"
    <http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menus/index.html>
    fun : <http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/streaker>
    panoramic scroller :
    <http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/scroller>

    --
    sm
     
    SAM, Apr 20, 2009
    #4
  5. Erwin Moller Guest

    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn schreef:
    > You appear to have acquired a number of misconceptions and false
    > terminology, which hinder understanding.
    >
    > wrote:
    >> I have seen sites using css attribute like "hover" to make dynamic
    >> websites.

    >
    > Those are pseudo-classes, not attributes:
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#dynamic-pseudo-classes>
    >
    >> In some sites most elements don't have direct event handlers like
    >> 'mouseover', 'mouseout' etc attached to html elements. Instead they
    >> use CSS. Could any one you give me some idea about invoking
    >> JavaScript event handlers via css for CSS attributes like "hover"?

    >
    > `mouseover', `mouseout' etc. are _not_ "event handlers", those are event
    > types. There is also no such thing as "JavaScript event handlers". And
    > even if there were, you could not "invoke" them "via css"; CSS is merely
    > a formatting language.


    Hi Thomas,

    The part 'There is also no such thing as "JavaScript event handlers".'
    was a surprise to me.
    I always thought of this matter in oversimplified terms, like: "the
    browser can generate an event of a certain type that can invoke a
    certainJavaScript event handler."
    Oversimplified view I see now. :)
    Clear posting. :)

    <snipped good explanation to spare bandwidth>

    Regards,
    Erwin Moller



    --
    "There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to
    make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the
    other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious
    deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."
    -- C.A.R. Hoare
     
    Erwin Moller, Apr 21, 2009
    #5
  6. Guest

    On Apr 21, 12:25 am, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    wrote:
    > You appear to have acquired a number of misconceptions and false
    > terminology, which hinder understanding.
    >
    > wrote:
    > > I have seen sites using css attribute like "hover" to make dynamic
    > > websites.

    >
    > Those are pseudo-classes, not attributes:
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#dynamic-pseudo-classes>
    >
    > > In some sites most elements don't have direct event handlers like
    > > 'mouseover', 'mouseout' etc  attached to html elements. Instead they
    > > use CSS.  Could any one you give me some idea about invoking
    > > JavaScript event handlers via css for CSS attributes like "hover"?

    >
    > `mouseover', `mouseout' etc. are _not_ "event handlers", those are event
    > types.  There is also no such thing as "JavaScript event handlers".  And
    > even if there were, you could not "invoke" them "via css"; CSS is merely
    > a formatting language.
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/>
    >
    > When the user or a program does something in a user agent, an event
    > occurs.  That may create an event object to propagate the event in the
    > document tree.
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-flow>
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.htm...>
    >
    > It may also, rather independently of the DOM, trigger a style sheet selector
    > that uses a dynamic pseudo-class.
    >
    > DOM implementations provide internal event-handlers so that code may
    > handle these events.  Event-handlers call one or more event-listeners; the
    > latter can be added with implementations that implement specified interfaces.
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-EventListener>
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.htm...>
    >
    > HTML elements provide event-handler attributes which value is supposed tobe
    > code written in a scripting language that is executed when the event occurs.
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.3>
    >
    > (Here event-handler attributes are called "events"; watch the date of this
    > Specification and don't let yourself be confused by this.)
    >
    > DOM objects may provide proprietary event-handler properties which value is
    > supposed to be (a reference to) a callable object that contains the code to
    > be executed on event.  If such a DOM object represents an element in the
    > document, then that element does not need to have one of the aforementioned
    > event-handler attributes specified, provided there is an event-handler
    > property for that attribute.
    >
    > There are also proprietary events and corresponding event-handler properties
    > that have no corresponding event-handler attribute in Valid markup, e.g.
    > <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element#Event_Handlers>
    >
    > (Noticed that there has been no mentioning of JavaScript until here?  For
    > these features are independent of a programming language.)
    >
    > Now, DOM implementations also provide properties that implement interfaces
    > of CSS-related APIs:
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html>
    >
    > You can use these properties to manipulate style sheets, e.g.
    >
    >   element.style.display = "none";
    >
    > to prevent an the element that is represented by the object `element' refers
    > to from being rendered.
    >
    > However, you only need to do this for user agents that do not support the
    > corresponding CSS property, or pseudo-class for the element in question, or
    > CSS at all.
    >
    > > E.g: In hp.com, tabs like 'Support & Drivers' or 'Shop for Products'
    > > are <a> HTML elements which don't have any event handlers directly
    > > attached to them. Still they modify the DOM on mouseover/out.

    >
    > If anything, they would modify the document tree; the DOM is a *model*, an
    > API instead, and usually not modified by an application using it.  (In fact,
    > it is strongly recommended against trying to modify a DOM implementation on
    > the fly; the objects provided are *host* *objects*, not, e.g. ECMAScript
    > native objects.)
    >
    > > I believe they are done via CSS.

    >
    > The content is styled with CSS, but I presume the content is exchanged with
    >  the IXMLHTTPRequest API (XHR, also known as AJAX -- Asynchronous JavaScript
    > and XML).
    >
    > <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/AJAX>
    >
    > Of course, this doesn't work where XHR support is unavailable, and it can
    > cause considerable delays if XHR support is available but there is small
    > bandwidth or the display device is a mobile one.
    >
    > In fact, the whole HP website is not exactly a showcase of good Web
    > authoring.  Starts with
    >
    > <http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hp.com%2...>
    > | 105 Errors, 15 warnings
    >
    > <http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css3&warning=2&u...>
    > | Sorry! We found the following errors (6)
    >
    > and ends with their using jQuery from which you should stay far away at
    > least at this point of its development.  (Search the archives.  JFTR:
    > I have very fast Internet access here, and a reasonably fast CPU, OS, and
    > browser[1]; yet switching from one section to the other through mouseover
    > takes about half a second!  Talk about code efficiency ...)
    >
    > > Could any body of you please give me some guidance regarding this ?

    >
    > [x] done
    >
    > HTH
    >
    > PointedEars
    > ___________
    > [1] Cable Internet access, 15000 kbps downstream top;
    >     Pentium M 740, 1 GB RAM;
    >     Debian GNU/Linux lenny/testing/unstable/experimental,
    >       Linux 2.6.28.8-20090322.180402, 1 GB Swap;
    >     KDE 3.5.9.dfsg.1-6, Firefox/Iceweasel 3.0.6


    Hi,

    Thanks for sharing valuable information, I need to get the pseudo-
    classes(.hover .active etc) attached to elements via CSS. I got the
    DOM nodelist using
    var nodelist = document.getElementsByTagName('*'). Is there any way
    that i could get pseudo-class for each element(nodelist[0]).

    I found one way in getting hover as below:
    var rule = window.document.styleSheets[0].cssRules[0];
    rule.selectorText;but this eats up the process Speed if website have
    multiple CSS files.

    Could you please help in getting pseudo-class using the nodelist.

    Thanks in Advance.
    Janardhan
     
    , Apr 21, 2009
    #6
  7. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:
    > Now, DOM implementations also provide properties that implement interfaces
    > of CSS-related APIs:
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html>
    >
    > You can use these properties to manipulate style sheets, e.g.
    >
    > element.style.display = "none";
    >
    > to prevent an the element that is represented by the object `element' refers
    > to from being rendered.
    >
    > However, you only need to do this for user agents that do not support the
    > corresponding CSS property, or pseudo-class for the element in question, or
    > CSS at all.


    In the last case, it does not work no matter how you do it, of course. If
    CSS is not supported, you cannot trigger it with scripting as well. So you
    can ignore this particular case. (However, previous UAs that do not support
    CSS really, may support CSS-like properties. For example, Netscape 4.x does
    support a `visibility' property for certain elements: element.visibility =
    "hide".)


    PointedEars
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Apr 21, 2009
    #7
  8. wrote:
    > [snipped full quote]
    > Thanks for sharing valuable information,


    Thank you for trimming quotes to the relevant minimum next time. I (and
    everybody else) know what a wrote.

    <http://jibbering.com/faq/#posting>

    > I need to get the pseudo-classes(.hover .active etc)


    The pseudo-classes are `:hover' and `:active', respectively. The colon
    distinguishes them against "normal" classes which start with a dot in the
    stylesheet (`.foobar').

    > attached to elements via CSS.


    To format `a' elements in the document so that their text color turns red
    when the pointer is placed on it:

    a:hover {
    color: red;
    }

    (Selectors with greater specificity not considered, of course. See also
    <http://www.w3.org/QA/Tips/color>.)

    Plain CSS is off-topic here, though.

    > I got the DOM nodelist using
    > var nodelist = document.getElementsByTagName('*'). Is there any way
    > that i could get pseudo-class for each element(nodelist[0]).


    Yes, theoretically you could use the document.styleSheets collection and
    find out if a selector in a stylesheet using a dynamic pseudo-class applies
    to the element in question.

    However, you are still going about this the wrong way; CSS has nothing to do
    with DOM events. What are you trying to do anyway, and why?


    PointedEars
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Apr 21, 2009
    #8
  9. Roger Guest

    On Apr 20, 3:25 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    wrote:
    > You appear to have acquired a number of misconceptions and false
    > terminology, which hinder understanding.
    >
    > wrote:
    > > I have seen sites using css attribute like "hover" to make dynamic
    > > websites.

    >
    > Those are pseudo-classes, not attributes:
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#dynamic-pseudo-classes>
    >
    > > In some sites most elements don't have direct event handlers like
    > > 'mouseover', 'mouseout' etc  attached to html elements. Instead they
    > > use CSS.  Could any one you give me some idea about invoking
    > > JavaScript event handlers via css for CSS attributes like "hover"?

    >
    > `mouseover', `mouseout' etc. are _not_ "event handlers", those are event
    > types.  There is also no such thing as "JavaScript event handlers".  And
    > even if there were, you could not "invoke" them "via css"; CSS is merely
    > a formatting language.
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/>
    >
    > When the user or a program does something in a user agent, an event
    > occurs.  That may create an event object to propagate the event in the
    > document tree.
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-flow>
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.htm...>
    >
    > It may also, rather independently of the DOM, trigger a style sheet selector
    > that uses a dynamic pseudo-class.
    >
    > DOM implementations provide internal event-handlers so that code may
    > handle these events.  Event-handlers call one or more event-listeners; the
    > latter can be added with implementations that implement specified interfaces.
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-EventListener>
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.htm...>
    >
    > HTML elements provide event-handler attributes which value is supposed tobe
    > code written in a scripting language that is executed when the event occurs.
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.3>
    >
    > (Here event-handler attributes are called "events"; watch the date of this
    > Specification and don't let yourself be confused by this.)
    >
    > DOM objects may provide proprietary event-handler properties which value is
    > supposed to be (a reference to) a callable object that contains the code to
    > be executed on event.  If such a DOM object represents an element in the
    > document, then that element does not need to have one of the aforementioned
    > event-handler attributes specified, provided there is an event-handler
    > property for that attribute.
    >
    > There are also proprietary events and corresponding event-handler properties
    > that have no corresponding event-handler attribute in Valid markup, e.g.
    > <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element#Event_Handlers>
    >
    > (Noticed that there has been no mentioning of JavaScript until here?  For
    > these features are independent of a programming language.)
    >
    > Now, DOM implementations also provide properties that implement interfaces
    > of CSS-related APIs:
    >
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html>
    >
    > You can use these properties to manipulate style sheets, e.g.
    >
    >   element.style.display = "none";
    >
    > to prevent an the element that is represented by the object `element' refers
    > to from being rendered.
    >
    > However, you only need to do this for user agents that do not support the
    > corresponding CSS property, or pseudo-class for the element in question, or
    > CSS at all.
    >
    > > E.g: In hp.com, tabs like 'Support & Drivers' or 'Shop for Products'
    > > are <a> HTML elements which don't have any event handlers directly
    > > attached to them. Still they modify the DOM on mouseover/out.

    >
    > If anything, they would modify the document tree; the DOM is a *model*, an
    > API instead, and usually not modified by an application using it.  (In fact,
    > it is strongly recommended against trying to modify a DOM implementation on
    > the fly; the objects provided are *host* *objects*, not, e.g. ECMAScript
    > native objects.)
    >
    > > I believe they are done via CSS.

    >
    > The content is styled with CSS, but I presume the content is exchanged with
    >  the IXMLHTTPRequest API (XHR, also known as AJAX -- Asynchronous JavaScript
    > and XML).
    >
    > <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/AJAX>
    >
    > Of course, this doesn't work where XHR support is unavailable, and it can
    > cause considerable delays if XHR support is available but there is small
    > bandwidth or the display device is a mobile one.
    >
    > In fact, the whole HP website is not exactly a showcase of good Web
    > authoring.  Starts with
    >
    > <http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hp.com%2...>
    > | 105 Errors, 15 warnings
    >
    > <http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css3&warning=2&u...>
    > | Sorry! We found the following errors (6)
    >
    > and ends with their usingjQueryfrom which you should stay farawayat
    > least at this point of its development.


    Or ever as they will never learn. I actually posted a message (under
    a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:

    http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/msg/473e3de5293e34f8

    Banned immediately for stating that jQuery uses browser sniffing.
    Probably fired their moderator too. :)

    More evidence that they are terminally stuck in the year 2000 and
    there is no hope for their plug-in system:

    http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/browse_thread/thread/896ad397997595d9

    Development group is nuts too:

    http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev/browse_thread/thread/102a0e11ce86fdad

    Sure, use jQuery with XHTML. It blows up real good.

    Damn, banned again. Two messages, two groups, two bans. Has to make
    you wonder why they are so scared of criticism and why they would try
    to shield their users from relevant issues. Doesn't really bode well
    for the future and past and present versions are obviously out of the
    question.

    Speaking of the future, I think most of the "supported browsers" have
    QSA now.

    This is Sizzle:

    if ( document.querySelectorAll ) (function(){
    var oldSizzle = Sizzle, div = document.createElement("div");
    div.innerHTML = "<p class='TEST'></p>";

    // Safari can't handle uppercase or unicode characters when
    // in quirks mode.
    if ( div.querySelectorAll && div.querySelectorAll(".TEST").length ===
    0 ) {
    return;
    }

    Sizzle = function(query, context, extra, seed){
    context = context || document;

    // Only use querySelectorAll on non-XML documents
    // (ID selectors don't work in non-HTML documents)
    if ( !seed && context.nodeType === 9 && !isXML(context) ) {
    try {
    return makeArray( context.querySelectorAll(query), extra );


    Note. No steak.


    } catch(e){}
    }

    return oldSizzle(query, context, extra, seed);
    };

    Sizzle.find = oldSizzle.find;
    Sizzle.filter = oldSizzle.filter;
    Sizzle.selectors = oldSizzle.selectors;
    Sizzle.matches = oldSizzle.matches;
    })();

    I recognize *that* pattern. Now if people can figure out that
    "chaining" is just:

    return this;

    ....nobody will feel compelled to rely on jQuery's Script of the Month
    Club again.
     
    Roger, Apr 21, 2009
    #9
  10. David Mark Guest

    On Apr 21, 10:54 am, Roger <> wrote:

    [snip]

    >
    > Or ever as they will never learn.  I actually posted a message (under
    > a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:


    Oops, posted this under the same alias. Dear moderator, please don't
    ban "Roger"; he's a good guy!
     
    David Mark, Apr 21, 2009
    #10
  11. David Mark wrote:
    > On Apr 21, 10:54 am, Roger <> wrote:
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >> Or ever as they will never learn. I actually posted a message (under
    >> a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:

    >
    > Oops, posted this under the same alias. Dear moderator, please don't
    > ban "Roger"; he's a good guy!


    Funny. I can go to the jQuery development groups and criticize jQuery
    but I don't get banned.

    I'm not overly friendly there. I hold some contempt for the effect
    jQuery has had on my industry and also get annoyed when posters do not
    include examples.

    But I'm not calling people idiots and buffoons, either. I wonder if that
    might have something to do with it.

    Garrett
     
    Garrett Smith, Apr 21, 2009
    #11
  12. David Mark wrote:
    > On Apr 21, 10:54 am, Roger wrote:
    >> Or ever as they will never learn. I actually posted a message (under
    >> a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:

    >
    > Oops, posted this under the same alias. Dear moderator, please don't
    > ban "Roger"; he's a good guy!


    Either I don't get the joke (and the whole "Roger" thing at all) or you need
    to be told: there is no moderator here.


    PointedEars
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Apr 21, 2009
    #12
  13. David Mark Guest

    On Apr 21, 12:36 pm, Garrett Smith <> wrote:
    > David Mark wrote:
    > > On Apr 21, 10:54 am, Roger <> wrote:

    >
    > > [snip]

    >
    > >> Or ever as they will never learn.  I actually posted a message (under
    > >> a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:

    >
    > > Oops, posted this under the same alias.  Dear moderator, please don't
    > > ban "Roger"; he's a good guy!

    >
    > Funny. I can go to the jQuery development groups and criticize jQuery
    > but I don't get banned.


    That is queer.

    >
    > I'm not overly friendly there. I hold some contempt for the effect
    > jQuery has had on my industry and also get annoyed when posters do not
    > include examples.
    >
    > But I'm not calling people idiots and buffoons, either. I wonder if that
    > might have something to do with it.


    Is that supposed to be a joke? "Roger" didn't call anyone anything.
    You really should refrain from knee-jerk reactions.
     
    David Mark, Apr 21, 2009
    #13
  14. David Mark Guest

    On Apr 21, 1:47 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    wrote:
    > David Mark wrote:
    > > On Apr 21, 10:54 am, Roger wrote:
    > >> Or ever as they will never learn.  I actually posted a message (under
    > >> a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:

    >
    > > Oops, posted this under the same alias.  Dear moderator, please don't
    > > ban "Roger"; he's a good guy!

    >
    > Either I don't get the joke (and the whole "Roger" thing at all) or you need
    > to be told: there is no moderator here.


    The whole thing is this. jQuery devotees often decry the fact that
    criticism is posted here, rather than in the jQuery forums.
    Obviously, the experiment would have been biased had I attempted to
    post under my real name (considering that I am the one that originally
    exposed jQuery as intellectually bankrupt, not to mention that they
    aped my code in their latest release.)

    So, I posted a couple of sentences in reply to a person who wanted to
    combine jQuery 1.2x and MooTools. (!) Just said it used browser
    sniffing. Here's the response:

    http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/msg/3ee975bc6332133e

    "1.3 has no browser sniffing at all. That said, I don't see how
    browser sniffing relates whatsoever to two libraries both functioning
    on the same page."

    I'm sure he can't see how two distinct blobs of browser sniffing in
    the same document would be a nightmare.

    Of course 1.3x has browser sniffing. It's full of it and history
    shows that it would still be sniffing the *UA string* if not for my
    input. For some reason they are pissed off about that and so are
    their users. (?)

    I suppose some people can go over there and discuss code they've never
    read (or remotely influenced) without getting banned. I guess Resig's
    feelings are what matters most. Don't cry for him though as he has
    only himself to blame (in every conceivable way.)
     
    David Mark, Apr 21, 2009
    #14
  15. Ricardo Guest

    On Apr 21, 11:54 am, Roger <> wrote:
    > On Apr 20, 3:25 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > You appear to have acquired a number of misconceptions and false
    > > terminology, which hinder understanding.

    >
    > > wrote:
    > > > I have seen sites using css attribute like "hover" to make dynamic
    > > > websites.

    >
    > > Those are pseudo-classes, not attributes:

    >
    > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#dynamic-pseudo-classes>

    >
    > > > In some sites most elements don't have direct event handlers like
    > > > 'mouseover', 'mouseout' etc  attached to html elements. Instead they
    > > > use CSS.  Could any one you give me some idea about invoking
    > > > JavaScript event handlers via css for CSS attributes like "hover"?

    >
    > > `mouseover', `mouseout' etc. are _not_ "event handlers", those are event
    > > types.  There is also no such thing as "JavaScript event handlers".  And
    > > even if there were, you could not "invoke" them "via css"; CSS is merely
    > > a formatting language.

    >
    > > <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/>

    >
    > > When the user or a program does something in a user agent, an event
    > > occurs.  That may create an event object to propagate the event in the
    > > document tree.

    >
    > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-flow>
    > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.htm....>

    >
    > > It may also, rather independently of the DOM, trigger a style sheet selector
    > > that uses a dynamic pseudo-class.

    >
    > > DOM implementations provide internal event-handlers so that code may
    > > handle these events.  Event-handlers call one or more event-listeners; the
    > > latter can be added with implementations that implement specified interfaces.

    >
    > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-EventListener>
    > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.htm....>

    >
    > > HTML elements provide event-handler attributes which value is supposed to be
    > > code written in a scripting language that is executed when the event occurs.

    >
    > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.3>

    >
    > > (Here event-handler attributes are called "events"; watch the date of this
    > > Specification and don't let yourself be confused by this.)

    >
    > > DOM objects may provide proprietary event-handler properties which value is
    > > supposed to be (a reference to) a callable object that contains the code to
    > > be executed on event.  If such a DOM object represents an element in the
    > > document, then that element does not need to have one of the aforementioned
    > > event-handler attributes specified, provided there is an event-handler
    > > property for that attribute.

    >
    > > There are also proprietary events and corresponding event-handler properties
    > > that have no corresponding event-handler attribute in Valid markup, e.g..
    > > <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element#Event_Handlers>

    >
    > > (Noticed that there has been no mentioning of JavaScript until here?  For
    > > these features are independent of a programming language.)

    >
    > > Now, DOM implementations also provide properties that implement interfaces
    > > of CSS-related APIs:

    >
    > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html>

    >
    > > You can use these properties to manipulate style sheets, e.g.

    >
    > >   element.style.display = "none";

    >
    > > to prevent an the element that is represented by the object `element' refers
    > > to from being rendered.

    >
    > > However, you only need to do this for user agents that do not support the
    > > corresponding CSS property, or pseudo-class for the element in question, or
    > > CSS at all.

    >
    > > > E.g: In hp.com, tabs like 'Support & Drivers' or 'Shop for Products'
    > > > are <a> HTML elements which don't have any event handlers directly
    > > > attached to them. Still they modify the DOM on mouseover/out.

    >
    > > If anything, they would modify the document tree; the DOM is a *model*,an
    > > API instead, and usually not modified by an application using it.  (In fact,
    > > it is strongly recommended against trying to modify a DOM implementation on
    > > the fly; the objects provided are *host* *objects*, not, e.g. ECMAScript
    > > native objects.)

    >
    > > > I believe they are done via CSS.

    >
    > > The content is styled with CSS, but I presume the content is exchanged with
    > >  the IXMLHTTPRequest API (XHR, also known as AJAX -- Asynchronous JavaScript
    > > and XML).

    >
    > > <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/AJAX>

    >
    > > Of course, this doesn't work where XHR support is unavailable, and it can
    > > cause considerable delays if XHR support is available but there is small
    > > bandwidth or the display device is a mobile one.

    >
    > > In fact, the whole HP website is not exactly a showcase of good Web
    > > authoring.  Starts with

    >
    > > <http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hp.com%2...>
    > > | 105 Errors, 15 warnings

    >
    > > <http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css3&warning=2&u...>
    > > | Sorry! We found the following errors (6)

    >
    > > and ends with their usingjQueryfrom which you should stay farawayat
    > > least at this point of its development.

    >
    > Or ever as they will never learn.  I actually posted a message (under
    > a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:
    >
    > http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/msg/473e3de5293e34f8
    >
    > Banned immediately for stating that jQuery uses browser sniffing.
    > Probably fired their moderator too.  :)
    >
    > More evidence that they are terminally stuck in the year 2000 and
    > there is no hope for their plug-in system:
    >
    > http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/browse_thread/thread/896ad39...
    >
    > Development group is nuts too:
    >
    > http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev/browse_thread/thread/102a0e...
    >
    > Sure, use jQuery with XHTML.  It blows up real good.
    >
    > Damn, banned again.  Two messages, two groups, two bans.  Has to make
    > you wonder why they are so scared of criticism and why they would try
    > to shield their users from relevant issues.  Doesn't really bode well
    > for the future and past and present versions are obviously out of the
    > question.
    >
    > Speaking of the future, I think most of the "supported browsers" have
    > QSA now.
    >
    > This is Sizzle:
    >
    > if ( document.querySelectorAll ) (function(){
    >         var oldSizzle = Sizzle, div = document.createElement("div");
    >         div.innerHTML = "<p class='TEST'></p>";
    >
    >         // Safari can't handle uppercase or unicode characters when
    >         // in quirks mode.
    >         if ( div.querySelectorAll && div.querySelectorAll(".TEST").length ===
    > 0 ) {
    >                 return;
    >         }
    >
    >         Sizzle = function(query, context, extra, seed){
    >                 context = context || document;
    >
    >                 // Only use querySelectorAll on non-XML documents
    >                 // (ID selectors don't work in non-HTML documents)
    >                 if ( !seed && context.nodeType === 9 && !isXML(context) ) {
    >                         try {
    >                                 return makeArray( context.querySelectorAll(query), extra );
    >
    > Note.  No steak.
    >
    >                         } catch(e){}
    >                 }
    >
    >                 return oldSizzle(query, context, extra, seed);
    >         };
    >
    >         Sizzle.find = oldSizzle.find;
    >         Sizzle.filter = oldSizzle.filter;
    >         Sizzle.selectors = oldSizzle.selectors;
    >         Sizzle.matches = oldSizzle.matches;
    >
    > })();
    >
    > I recognize *that* pattern.  Now if people can figure out that
    > "chaining" is just:
    >
    > return this;
    >
    > ...nobody will feel compelled to rely on jQuery's Script of the Month
    > Club again.


    You seem to enjoy being banned. You certainly use aliases for a "good"
    reason...

    In response to "please keep discussions on track and civil":
    "Nice sentiment. Do you own the place? If so, you are a really lousy
    moderator (especially since you don't follow the discussions
    closely.)"

    "I dare you to ban me (would be your loss.)"

    About future enhancements plans for jQuery:
    "Then everybody can upgrade your monolithic mess again?
    Is this project a long-running practical joke are are you really
    serious?"

    For an expert, your understanding of frameworks seems flabby. XHTML
    served as application/xhtml+xml is not a reality in the web right now
    for lack of support. jQuery is aimed at development of real websites.
    If that's not your game just forget it.
     
    Ricardo, Apr 21, 2009
    #15
  16. David Mark Guest

    On Apr 21, 3:32 pm, Ricardo <> wrote:
    > On Apr 21, 11:54 am, Roger <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Apr 20, 3:25 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    > > wrote:

    >
    > > > You appear to have acquired a number of misconceptions and false
    > > > terminology, which hinder understanding.

    >
    > > > wrote:
    > > > > I have seen sites using css attribute like "hover" to make dynamic
    > > > > websites.

    >
    > > > Those are pseudo-classes, not attributes:

    >
    > > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#dynamic-pseudo-classes>

    >
    > > > > In some sites most elements don't have direct event handlers like
    > > > > 'mouseover', 'mouseout' etc  attached to html elements. Instead they
    > > > > use CSS.  Could any one you give me some idea about invoking
    > > > > JavaScript event handlers via css for CSS attributes like "hover"?

    >
    > > > `mouseover', `mouseout' etc. are _not_ "event handlers", those are event
    > > > types.  There is also no such thing as "JavaScript event handlers". And
    > > > even if there were, you could not "invoke" them "via css"; CSS is merely
    > > > a formatting language.

    >
    > > > <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/>

    >
    > > > When the user or a program does something in a user agent, an event
    > > > occurs.  That may create an event object to propagate the event in the
    > > > document tree.

    >
    > > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-flow>
    > > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.htm...>

    >
    > > > It may also, rather independently of the DOM, trigger a style sheet selector
    > > > that uses a dynamic pseudo-class.

    >
    > > > DOM implementations provide internal event-handlers so that code may
    > > > handle these events.  Event-handlers call one or more event-listeners; the
    > > > latter can be added with implementations that implement specified interfaces.

    >
    > > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Events/events.html#Events-EventListener>
    > > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/NOTE-DOM-Level-3-Events-20031107/events.htm...>

    >
    > > > HTML elements provide event-handler attributes which value is supposed to be
    > > > code written in a scripting language that is executed when the event occurs.

    >
    > > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.3>

    >
    > > > (Here event-handler attributes are called "events"; watch the date ofthis
    > > > Specification and don't let yourself be confused by this.)

    >
    > > > DOM objects may provide proprietary event-handler properties which value is
    > > > supposed to be (a reference to) a callable object that contains the code to
    > > > be executed on event.  If such a DOM object represents an element in the
    > > > document, then that element does not need to have one of the aforementioned
    > > > event-handler attributes specified, provided there is an event-handler
    > > > property for that attribute.

    >
    > > > There are also proprietary events and corresponding event-handler properties
    > > > that have no corresponding event-handler attribute in Valid markup, e..g.
    > > > <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element#Event_Handlers>

    >
    > > > (Noticed that there has been no mentioning of JavaScript until here?  For
    > > > these features are independent of a programming language.)

    >
    > > > Now, DOM implementations also provide properties that implement interfaces
    > > > of CSS-related APIs:

    >
    > > > <http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2-Style/css.html>

    >
    > > > You can use these properties to manipulate style sheets, e.g.

    >
    > > >   element.style.display = "none";

    >
    > > > to prevent an the element that is represented by the object `element'refers
    > > > to from being rendered.

    >
    > > > However, you only need to do this for user agents that do not supportthe
    > > > corresponding CSS property, or pseudo-class for the element in question, or
    > > > CSS at all.

    >
    > > > > E.g: In hp.com, tabs like 'Support & Drivers' or 'Shop for Products'
    > > > > are <a> HTML elements which don't have any event handlers directly
    > > > > attached to them. Still they modify the DOM on mouseover/out.

    >
    > > > If anything, they would modify the document tree; the DOM is a *model*, an
    > > > API instead, and usually not modified by an application using it.  (In fact,
    > > > it is strongly recommended against trying to modify a DOM implementation on
    > > > the fly; the objects provided are *host* *objects*, not, e.g. ECMAScript
    > > > native objects.)

    >
    > > > > I believe they are done via CSS.

    >
    > > > The content is styled with CSS, but I presume the content is exchanged with
    > > >  the IXMLHTTPRequest API (XHR, also known as AJAX -- Asynchronous JavaScript
    > > > and XML).

    >
    > > > <https://developer.mozilla.org/en/AJAX>

    >
    > > > Of course, this doesn't work where XHR support is unavailable, and itcan
    > > > cause considerable delays if XHR support is available but there is small
    > > > bandwidth or the display device is a mobile one.

    >
    > > > In fact, the whole HP website is not exactly a showcase of good Web
    > > > authoring.  Starts with

    >
    > > > <http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hp.com%2...>
    > > > | 105 Errors, 15 warnings

    >
    > > > <http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?profile=css3&warning=2&u...>
    > > > | Sorry! We found the following errors (6)

    >
    > > > and ends with their usingjQueryfrom which you should stay farawayat
    > > > least at this point of its development.

    >
    > > Or ever as they will never learn.  I actually posted a message (under
    > > a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:

    >
    > >http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/msg/473e3de5293e34f8

    >
    > > Banned immediately for stating that jQuery uses browser sniffing.
    > > Probably fired their moderator too.  :)

    >
    > > More evidence that they are terminally stuck in the year 2000 and
    > > there is no hope for their plug-in system:

    >
    > >http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/browse_thread/thread/896ad39...

    >
    > > Development group is nuts too:

    >
    > >http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-dev/browse_thread/thread/102a0e...

    >
    > > Sure, use jQuery with XHTML.  It blows up real good.

    >
    > > Damn, banned again.  Two messages, two groups, two bans.  Has to make
    > > you wonder why they are so scared of criticism and why they would try
    > > to shield their users from relevant issues.  Doesn't really bode well
    > > for the future and past and present versions are obviously out of the
    > > question.

    >
    > > Speaking of the future, I think most of the "supported browsers" have
    > > QSA now.

    >
    > > This is Sizzle:

    >
    > > if ( document.querySelectorAll ) (function(){
    > >         var oldSizzle = Sizzle, div = document.createElement("div");
    > >         div.innerHTML = "<p class='TEST'></p>";

    >
    > >         // Safari can't handle uppercase or unicode characters when
    > >         // in quirks mode.
    > >         if ( div.querySelectorAll && div.querySelectorAll(".TEST").length ===
    > > 0 ) {
    > >                 return;
    > >         }

    >
    > >         Sizzle = function(query, context, extra, seed){
    > >                 context = context || document;

    >
    > >                 // Only use querySelectorAll on non-XMLdocuments
    > >                 // (ID selectors don't work in non-HTMLdocuments)
    > >                 if ( !seed && context.nodeType === 9 && !isXML(context) ) {
    > >                         try {
    > >                                 return makeArray( context.querySelectorAll(query), extra );

    >
    > > Note.  No steak.

    >
    > >                         } catch(e){}
    > >                 }

    >
    > >                 return oldSizzle(query, context, extra,seed);
    > >         };

    >
    > >         Sizzle.find = oldSizzle.find;
    > >         Sizzle.filter = oldSizzle.filter;
    > >         Sizzle.selectors = oldSizzle.selectors;
    > >         Sizzle.matches = oldSizzle.matches;

    >
    > > })();

    >
    > > I recognize *that* pattern.  Now if people can figure out that
    > > "chaining" is just:

    >
    > > return this;

    >
    > > ...nobody will feel compelled to rely on jQuery's Script of the Month
    > > Club again.

    >
    > You seem to enjoy being banned. You certainly use aliases for a "good"
    > reason...


    LOL. A *very* good reason. Resig would never let me in that group.
    Would have biased the results for sure. :)

    >
    > In response to "please keep discussions on track and civil":
    > "Nice sentiment.  Do you own the place?  If so, you are a really lousy
    > moderator (especially since you don't follow the discussions
    > closely.)"


    Who are you talking to?

    >
    > "I dare you to ban me (would be your loss.)"


    And wouldn't you know? He actually *did* (despite the public
    outcry.) Supposed to outgrow taking dares by five.

    >
    > About future enhancements plans for jQuery:
    > "Then everybody can upgrade your monolithic mess again?
    > Is this project a long-running practical joke are are you really
    > serious?"
    >
    > For an expert, your understanding of frameworks seems flabby. XHTML


    Did you mean "expert?" Flabby? As in fat?

    > served as application/xhtml+xml is not a reality in the web right now


    Thanks for that nugget, "Ricardo." You guys do operate with blinders
    on, don't you? Of all of the library authors on the planet (quite a
    few these days), you picked the *one* who has actually published an
    XHTML compatible library. So much for luck.

    > for lack of support. jQuery is aimed at development of real websites.


    See, that is where you are wrong. For an "expert", your understanding
    seems acutely anorexic. I remember you as the one who recommended
    using an htmlFor attribute in markup to work around jQuery's idiotic
    attr method. For God's sake.

    > If that's not your game just forget it.


    Of course, the entire point was that Resig didn't realize what you
    just tried to say. jQuery cannot run in an XHTML DOM. Of course, it
    isn't too hot with HTML either. Or XML for that matter. It's pretty
    much a train wreck in any language which is unsurprising given the
    conductors.
     
    David Mark, Apr 21, 2009
    #16
  17. David Mark wrote:
    > On Apr 21, 1:47 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    > wrote:
    >> David Mark wrote:
    >>> On Apr 21, 10:54 am, Roger wrote:
    >>>> Or ever as they will never learn. I actually posted a message (under
    >>>> a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:
    >>> Oops, posted this under the same alias. Dear moderator, please don't
    >>> ban "Roger"; he's a good guy!

    >> Either I don't get the joke (and the whole "Roger" thing at all) or you need
    >> to be told: there is no moderator here.

    >
    > The whole thing is this. jQuery devotees often decry the fact that
    > criticism is posted here, rather than in the jQuery forums.
    > Obviously, the experiment would have been biased had I attempted to
    > post under my real name (considering that I am the one that originally
    > exposed jQuery as intellectually bankrupt, not to mention that they
    > aped my code in their latest release.)
    >
    > So, I posted a couple of sentences in reply to a person who wanted to
    > combine jQuery 1.2x and MooTools. (!) Just said it used browser
    > sniffing. Here's the response:
    >
    > http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/msg/3ee975bc6332133e
    >
    > "1.3 has no browser sniffing at all. That said, I don't see how
    > browser sniffing relates whatsoever to two libraries both functioning
    > on the same page."
    >
    > I'm sure he can't see how two distinct blobs of browser sniffing in
    > the same document would be a nightmare.
    >
    > Of course 1.3x has browser sniffing. It's full of it and history
    > shows that it would still be sniffing the *UA string* if not for my
    > input. For some reason they are pissed off about that and so are
    > their users. (?)
    >


    Right.

    Mootools does a lot of modification to host and built-in objects'
    prototypes. It is not recommended to run that library with other
    libraries in the same page.

    In rereading your post on the jQuery list, I agree 100%.

    Garrett
     
    Garrett Smith, Apr 21, 2009
    #17
  18. David Mark Guest

    On Apr 21, 5:16 pm, Garrett Smith <> wrote:
    > David Mark wrote:
    > > On Apr 21, 1:47 pm, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <>
    > > wrote:
    > >> David Mark wrote:
    > >>> On Apr 21, 10:54 am, Roger wrote:
    > >>>> Or ever as they will never learn.  I actually posted a message (under
    > >>>> a pseudonym of course) to their forum once:
    > >>> Oops, posted this under the same alias.  Dear moderator, please don't
    > >>> ban "Roger"; he's a good guy!
    > >> Either I don't get the joke (and the whole "Roger" thing at all) or you need
    > >> to be told: there is no moderator here.

    >
    > > The whole thing is this.  jQuery devotees often decry the fact that
    > > criticism is posted here, rather than in the jQuery forums.
    > > Obviously, the experiment would have been biased had I attempted to
    > > post under my real name (considering that I am the one that originally
    > > exposed jQuery as intellectually bankrupt, not to mention that they
    > > aped my code in their latest release.)

    >
    > > So, I posted a couple of sentences in reply to a person who wanted to
    > > combine jQuery 1.2x and MooTools. (!)  Just said it used browser
    > > sniffing.  Here's the response:

    >
    > >http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/msg/3ee975bc6332133e

    >
    > > "1.3 has no browser sniffing at all. That said, I don't see how
    > > browser sniffing relates whatsoever to two libraries both functioning
    > > on the same page."

    >
    > > I'm sure he can't see how two distinct blobs of browser sniffing in
    > > the same document would be a nightmare.

    >
    > > Of course 1.3x has browser sniffing.  It's full of it and history
    > > shows that it would still be sniffing the *UA string* if not for my
    > > input.  For some reason they are pissed off about that and so are
    > > their users. (?)

    >
    > Right.
    >
    > Mootools does a lot of modification to host and built-in objects'
    > prototypes. It is not recommended to run that library with other
    > libraries in the same page.


    Outstanding point (which I somehow neglected.) Neither of those
    scripts filters for-in loops.

    >
    > In rereading your post on the jQuery list, I agree 100%.


    I think we agree on most points, but the communication breaks down
    occasionally. It is good that you are lending a hand over there (I
    assume you are telling people how to do things properly, which
    typically excludes jQuery.) Hopefully they won't ban you for that.
    In any event, I think it is too late for them to survive as anything
    but a curiosity.
     
    David Mark, Apr 21, 2009
    #18
  19. Ricardo Guest

    On Apr 21, 5:09 pm, David Mark <> wrote:

    >
    > Who are you talking to?
    >


    No idea. Is this another alias, "David"?

    > Did you mean "expert?"  Flabby?  As in fat?


    from wordnet.princeton.edu: (out of condition; not strong or robust;
    incapable of exertion or endurance). foda-se.

    > > served as application/xhtml+xml is not a reality in the web right now

    >
    > Thanks for that nugget, "Ricardo."  You guys do operate with blinders
    > on, don't you?  Of all of the library authors on the planet (quite a
    > few these days), you picked the *one* who has actually published an
    > XHTML compatible library.  So much for luck.
    >


    Interesting, where do I find it? Given that something between 40-70%
    of all browsers out there (IE) don't support yet, I guess it's only
    useful in controlled environments, right?

    > See, that is where you are wrong.  For an "expert", your understanding
    > seems acutely anorexic.  I remember you as the one who recommended
    > using an htmlFor attribute in markup to work around jQuery's idiotic
    > attr method.  For God's sake.
    >


    I never said I'm an expert, I'm not. I wouldn't be surprised to know
    you've been coding in javascript longer than I've been around. And I
    never recommended using an htmlFor attribute as a workaround to
    anything: http://groups.google.com/group/jque...39db736589a/ffb7274db43545f0#71bb5cd00535689f

    I can state that the attr() method has a flaw without cursing someone
    or something, "unexpected" is what I said. Do you have tourette's or
    something?

    >
    > Of course, the entire point was that Resig didn't realize what you
    > just tried to say.  jQuery cannot run in an XHTML DOM.  Of course, it
    > isn't too hot with HTML either.  Or XML for that matter.  It's pretty
    > much a train wreck in any language which is unsurprising given the
    > conductors.


    right! jQuery can't run in XHTML served as application/xhtml+xml. It's
    made to run on current web technology, which is XHTML served as text/
    html, that responds for the vast majority of living websites.

    About not being "too hot" with HTML, that's a personal opinion. A
    great deal of web developers will disagree with you, I guess we're all
    stupid for that. jQuery doesn't claim to handle XML either, wherever
    it fits it's passed to the browser to take care of it.

    So, who did you say can't take criticism anyway? I realized joining a
    conversation with you with opposite opinions was asking for trouble,
    but I didn't know it would come so fast and so low. Please refrain
    from answering this if you can't keep a decent level of conversation,
    I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.

    thanks,
    ricardo
     
    Ricardo, Apr 22, 2009
    #19
  20. David Mark Guest

    On Apr 22, 12:33 am, Ricardo <> wrote:
    > On Apr 21, 5:09 pm, David Mark <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > Who are you talking to?

    >
    > No idea. Is this another alias, "David"?


    You missed that one.

    >
    > > Did you mean "expert?"  Flabby?  As in fat?

    >
    > from wordnet.princeton.edu: (out of condition; not strong or robust;
    > incapable of exertion or endurance). foda-se.


    Doesn't really matter, does it?

    >
    > > > served as application/xhtml+xml is not a reality in the web right now

    >
    > > Thanks for that nugget, "Ricardo."  You guys do operate with blinders
    > > on, don't you?  Of all of the library authors on the planet (quite a
    > > few these days), you picked the *one* who has actually published an
    > > XHTML compatible library.  So much for luck.

    >
    > Interesting, where do I find it? Given that something between 40-70%
    > of all browsers out there (IE) don't support yet, I guess it's only
    > useful in controlled environments, right?


    Where can you find what? If you are referring to My Library, then you
    are beyond help. Ask your fellow jQuery mavens. God knows they've
    seen it. And it is obviously for (X)HTML.

    >
    > > See, that is where you are wrong.  For an "expert", your understanding
    > > seems acutely anorexic.  I remember you as the one who recommended
    > > using an htmlFor attribute in markup to work around jQuery's idiotic
    > > attr method.  For God's sake.

    >
    > I never said I'm an expert, I'm not. I wouldn't be surprised to know
    > you've been coding in javascript longer than I've been around.


    So you are a kid? That explains a lot.

    > And I
    > never recommended using an htmlFor attribute as a workaround to
    > anything:http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/browse_thread/thread/f2cff39...


    Yes, you did. Though it is clear that you don't really know what you
    are saying.

    http://groups.google.com/group/jquery-en/msg/71bb5cd00535689f

    >
    > I can state that the attr() method has a flaw without cursing someone
    > or something, "unexpected" is what I said. Do you have tourette's or
    > something?


    Who cursed you? Are you delusional?

    >
    >
    >
    > > Of course, the entire point was that Resig didn't realize what you
    > > just tried to say.  jQuery cannot run in an XHTML DOM.  Of course, it
    > > isn't too hot with HTML either.  Or XML for that matter.  It's pretty
    > > much a train wreck in any language which is unsurprising given the
    > > conductors.

    >
    > right! jQuery can't run in XHTML served as application/xhtml+xml. It's


    And how it is a good thing that the author of the script doesn't know
    that? Everything he says is wrong, even when talking about his own
    script.

    > made to run on current web technology, which is XHTML served as text/
    > html, that responds for the vast majority of living websites.


    XHTML served as HTML is not "current web technology", nor is jQuery
    designed in any way to work with such a scheme. As with most of it,
    it works by coincidence in some agents and configurations.

    >
    > About not being "too hot" with HTML, that's a personal opinion.


    No, it isn't an opinion. It is a fact. I suggest you search the
    archive for "jQuery." Just read the last few weeks or so.

    > A
    > great deal of web developers will disagree with you, I guess we're all
    > stupid for that.


    Ignorant would be more kind (though that doesn't always apply.)


    > jQuery doesn't claim to handle XML either, wherever
    > it fits it's passed to the browser to take care of it.


    That is either meaningless or completely untrue. I can't decide
    which.

    >
    > So, who did you say can't take criticism anyway? I realized joining a
    > conversation with you with opposite opinions was asking for trouble,


    You seem to have everything backwards.

    > but I didn't know it would come so fast and so low. Please refrain
    > from answering this if you can't keep a decent level of conversation,
    > I'm sure everyone will appreciate it.
    >


    What a moron.
     
    David Mark, Apr 22, 2009
    #20
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