Exam 70-305

[Mr Newbie]

Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple of
practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you have to
REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its like
looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the difference.
Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

)

 

[Karl Seguin]

I thought the exam was extremly easy. I finished in about 25 minutes and got
a high score. personally, it soured me on the entire experience, much too
easy and focusing on the wrong things.

Anyways, best way to study is to take a lot of sample tests..

Karl

 

[Gary Blakely]

I used the QUE book by Mike Gunderloy and the material from Trancenders. I
think the trancenders material was more tricky and harder than the real test
but worth the money. the Mike Gunderloy book was a great prep but more than
a prep - I still use it for reference because it touches on about
everything. My reaction to all that code was the same as yours and I
believe the practice tests taught me how to spot those differences quickly.

The prep experience and the test was very good for me because it forced me
to learn all areas where before I was really strong in about half of them.

 

[Mark Rae]

I thought the exam was extremly easy. I finished in about 25 minutes and
got a high score. personally, it soured me on the entire experience, much
too easy and focusing on the wrong things.

It's my personal opinion that MCPs are a total and utter waste of time and
money. They don't teach you how to be a better developer; just to remember a
load of pointless facts that you never need to remember in your day-to-day
work.

I've always equated them to driving lessons - they don't teach you how to be
a good driver; they just teach you how to pass your driving test.

 

[Guadala Harry]

As a guy with each of these certifications: MCSD, MCDBA, MCSA, MCSE (with
MCSD.NET just around the corner);
I can tell you firsthand that any of the certifications or exams won't make
you a better programmer or even provide much of an indication of what you
actually know. One unfortunate side effect of having these certs is that
they pretty much increase people's expectations unrealistically for what you
know and what you can do. There is an absolutely HUGE amount of material
potentially covered by all those tests and I honestly cannot tell you want a
passing grade really means. For example I got 100% on the COM section of one
of the MCSD tests and I can tell you I don't know much beyond the absolute
basics of COM. On the other hand I barely passed other exams and they never
asked me anything about a whole bunch of stuff that I knew that was
relevant. So one thing I've concluded is that one's score on these exams
measures - in large part - the exam's ability to measure what you DO in fact
know. A low score may mean that the test failed to measure your knowledge
adequately. A high score may mean the exact same thing! The upshot of this:
You might do well to have some clear understanding of what a passing score
means - and means just for you. Personally, I just look at it as a way to
get *some* idea of how well I have covered some of the fundamentals in some
area of inquiry (and even then, just on Microsoft products). If I can't even
pass one of these tests, then I better hit the books! But that doesn't mean
that passing the test gives me any sense of [elevated status] in the
industry - after all, it's hard to really know what a passing score means.
Bottom line is that you really need to roll up your sleeves and get some
good old fashioned experience before you can really consider yourself as
achieving any level of *expertise* - even then it's only limited to the
domain in which you have such experience; certification or no certification.

-HTH

-GH

 

[Tina]

My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are afraid
to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them. Just because
you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent lawyer but it is
evidence that you are not some dumb shit.

T

 

[Guadala Harry]

Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these tests and
I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective meaning... and
then you make your sweeping statement???

Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG and
others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.

-GH

 

[Guadala Harry]

For those interested, here is info on the next generation of Microsoft
certifications.

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/newgen/

With these new certifications - particularly the Microsoft Certified
Architect - the *meaning* of the credential will be much more clear than
those offered today. I guess MS saw a need to revamp things - perhaps to add
some additional validity to the whole certification process.

-FWIW

As a guy with each of these certifications: MCSD, MCDBA, MCSA, MCSE (with
MCSD.NET just around the corner);
I can tell you firsthand that any of the certifications or exams won't
make you a better programmer or even provide much of an indication of what
you actually know. One unfortunate side effect of having these certs is
that they pretty much increase people's expectations unrealistically for
what you know and what you can do. There is an absolutely HUGE amount of
material potentially covered by all those tests and I honestly cannot tell
you want a passing grade really means. For example I got 100% on the COM
section of one of the MCSD tests and I can tell you I don't know much
beyond the absolute basics of COM. On the other hand I barely passed other
exams and they never asked me anything about a whole bunch of stuff that I
knew that was relevant. So one thing I've concluded is that one's score on
these exams measures - in large part - the exam's ability to measure what
you DO in fact know. A low score may mean that the test failed to measure
your knowledge adequately. A high score may mean the exact same thing! The
upshot of this: You might do well to have some clear understanding of what
a passing score means - and means just for you. Personally, I just look at
it as a way to get *some* idea of how well I have covered some of the
fundamentals in some area of inquiry (and even then, just on Microsoft
products). If I can't even pass one of these tests, then I better hit the
books! But that doesn't mean that passing the test gives me any sense of
[elevated status] in the industry - after all, it's hard to really know
what a passing score means. Bottom line is that you really need to roll up
your sleeves and get some good old fashioned experience before you can
really consider yourself as achieving any level of *expertise* - even then
it's only limited to the domain in which you have such experience;
certification or no certification.

-HTH

-GH

Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a couple
of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much as you
have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you up.

When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its
like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the
difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help in
your head !!

How did others get on with it ?

Cheers Mr N

PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg Neural
Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera quads of help
provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm going to re-route all
emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my friggin head off!!!!

)

 

[Mr Newbie]

I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a point
!

For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would be
impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through the MS
or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time applied and
the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the exam iteself.

Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your points
regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying aptitude.

For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would
probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who is
obviously an experienced person in this field.

I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it as a
stepping stone.

And thanks for all the replies to my post.

Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The
development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to all
of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience of
real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other words,
using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between knowing what
all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used for, and how to
read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses.

All development projects are different, and present different and unique
challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a constant
companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations, requirements that
exceed my skill set, problems I have never encountered before, and I've been
programming for a dozen years.

A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for measuring
those things, and those things only. Among the most critical skills required
by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic, creative thinking, anal
attention to detail, a measure of healthy paranoia, and dogged persistence.
Until now, I have not seen certification exams which are able to measure
most of these things. I have not seen certification exams which do measure
the ones which can be measured (such as problem-solving and logic).

It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a non-specific
quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless. It is
*critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be able to do so
quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing "20 questions." THAT
would be a good measurement criteria!

The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little or no
formal training, and either had not taken any certification exams, or had
taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no other reason.
Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going to want to make the
kind of money that can be made doing it. Among them, only a select few are
"born programmers" or have the self-discipline and persistence to acquire
these skills and qualities.

Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime to
become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which an
aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial butt off, after that, it is
fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most Doctors are
specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep up with a limited
set of knowledge. They have nurses and other lower-paid medical technicians
to do most of their work for them. And the human body isn't re-designed
every 5 or 10 years.

As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much time
studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to keep up,
even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me, I love to
learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress except for
boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of my life, with
the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)

But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar traits?
Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some Technical
Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it for the money.
There are as many hack developers out there as there are hack car mechanics,
hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these are very good at passing
certification exams.

I have never taken one. Why?

1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an
exam.
4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one "for
fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my everyday
life.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

 

[Mr Newbie]

Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.
Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument
completely fails to address my point.

To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply
'Incorrect'

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
course of such preparation. The only exception would be when one has already
achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other means, in which case the
only reason to have taken it would have either been to prove to a third
party or oneself that one has achieved this badge of merit.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being thought
of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of producing well
written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed from having gone
through the process.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not, and
whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them, I
think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say the
most.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit,
courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage and
brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the IT
Amphitheatre.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to be
considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at this
point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.


HTH

 

[Frankie]

I've passed a few of these tests. I'd be happy to correspond offline with
you on this... as this thread is quickly becoming a "religious debate". Send
to jeffREMOVE_THIS330cia@yahooDOTcom if interested.

-F

 

[Mr Newbie]

Thanks for the reply Frankie ( Jeff ). I think I will be ok, but perhaps you
could reply to my post earlier today regarding Web User Controls as no one
has given me a reply so far.

Regards - Mr N

 

[Mark Rae]

To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply
'Incorrect'

I disagree. You dub yourself "Mr Newbie" - perhaps when you have a few
years' real-world experience under your belt, you will come to understand
just how meaningless these pointless pieces of paper are...

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
course of such preparation.

That simply isn't the case. In order to pass any MCP, you need to retain a
certain amount of information for no longer than the duration of the exam,
after which you will never need to remember it again, and will very quickly
forget it. Or, perhaps to qualify that statement a little, you will forget
the actual minutiae but will remember where to find it.

The only exception would be when one has already achieved such knowledge
prior to the exam by other means, in which case the only reason to have
taken it would have either been to prove to a third party or oneself that
one has achieved this badge of merit.

Again, the only people to whom you will be able to prove this are those who
have little understanding of what MCPs are. It's tantamount to trying to get
the post of Head of School of Business Studies at the London School of
Economics armed with no more than an MBa you'd bought off the Internet (they
exist...). If the person interviewing you is sufficiently uninformed about
the worth of your "qualification", then more fool them, and good luck to
you!

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software,

So why waste your time with it?

but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed from having gone through the
process.

On the contrary - I've sat in on more than one technical interview where the
interviewee was aked why he'd wasted his time and money on MCPs...

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them,
I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say
the most.

Making a non-IT analogy, David Blaine (the so-called magician) was able to
stand atop a tall pillar in America for a few days without falling off and
killing himself, and was able (if he is to be believed) to subsist on
nothing more than water for several weeks in a glass box suspended above the
Thames. Both feats are doubtless incredibly impressive to those who are
impressed by such things - alternatively, what a total and utter waste of
time!

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.

Alternatively, why not redirect the efforts you will expend in revising for
your MCP into actually learning to be a developer...?

 

[Juan T. Llibre]

re:

You dub yourself "Mr Newbie" - perhaps when you have a few years' real-world experience
under your belt

I don't think that "Mr. Newbie" is as much of
a "newbie" as his self-chosen name would indicate.

He seems to have quite a bit of programming experience.

 

[Mark Rae]

I don't think that "Mr. Newbie" is as much of
a "newbie" as his self-chosen name would indicate.

He seems to have quite a bit of programming experience.

Wonder why on earth he's wasting his time with MCPs...???

 

[Mr Newbie]

It is fascinating that neither you, nor Mr Spencer seems to have grasped the
fundamentals of my assertion.

My point was simply, that the process of preparation is in itself is a
learning exercise regardless of if you consider the certificate has merit or
not. Some people don't think the way you and Mr Spencer appear to think,
and do have an opinion which differs from your good selves, and for them
this certificate has some value.

If this is true, then the certificate HAS value, and so does the process.

I do not claim there is no better way to test someone's ability, nor do I
assert that there is not a better learning process. Only that this is a
learning process, and does have value to some people.

You do not have to subscribe to my views and it is of little importance to
me whether you do, or do not. I personally see a value in it, so I will
continue to align myself with the process.

Have fun and enjoy your anger, at least then it will serve some constructive
function.


Regards Mr Newbie. . .

 

[Mr Newbie]

Wonder why on earth he's wasting his time with MCPs...???

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Do you program with that logic?

Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.

There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There is
nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about programming, and
about people who want to better themselves at programming. Programming is an
admirable profession, and wanting to better one's self is an admirable goal.
Your reply is quite long as well. What exactly floats *your* boat?
Bitterness and anger?

The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
course of such preparation.

I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between knowing
a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when one needs to
know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much more valuable than
a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz. While you may disagree,
perhaps you might like to support your argument with some fact and/or logic.
Otherwise, you are simply exhaling noisily.

I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
from having gone through the process.

I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or may not
have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by those to whom I
am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and God. And I never
mentioned anything about the value of being thought highly of by anyone. You
are imagining things.

I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them,
I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say
the most.

Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading things
into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with regards to the
efficacy of certification exams, and with the usefulness of taking and/or
passing them.

I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit,
courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage
and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the
IT Amphitheatre.

Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from
experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make the
argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to justify the idea
is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to avoid that. There are enough
opinions floating around this planet to cause global warming. If you write
programs with that many assumptions, they must surely be unstable.

Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.

You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely
Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take potshots at
people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as cowardly.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

 

[Mark Rae]

My point was simply, that the process of preparation is in itself is a
learning exercise regardless of if you consider the certificate has merit
or not. Some people don't think the way you and Mr Spencer appear to
think, and do have an opinion which differs from your good selves, and for
them this certificate has some value.

And lots of people still believe that the earth if flat - what's your point
exactly...?

If this is true, then the certificate HAS value, and so does the process.

And if it doesn't, then the certificate has no value, nor does the process.

I do not claim there is no better way to test someone's ability, nor do I
assert that there is not a better learning process. Only that this is a
learning process

And I counter-claim that, whereas it may be a learning process (as is
everything from the moment you are born until the moment you die), that
learning is of no practical use whatever other than to prove that you have
excellent short-term memory. You may as well learn the value of pi to 1,000
places.

Have fun and enjoy your anger, at least then it will serve some
constructive function.

Oh for heaven's sake!

Regards Mr Newbie. . .

What's your real name, by the way...?