explaining web standards to clients

[Travis Newbury]

The problem the average purchaser has is that the average provider of
the product or service insists on going on at length about the
technical way that this is done or that is done. We - the average
purchasers - don't give a rat's ass how you get the windmill on the
page. We just want it there.

But do you want to know if someone is going to have problems seeing it?
Or do you just want them to make it reguardless of who (or how many)
of your customers can't see it.

I personally, would want the developer to explain to me why my windmill
may not work for everyone. THEN (and only then) can I as the decision
maker make a intelegent desision about the windmill.

Now, once I made my decision (no matter what it is) I expect the
deveoper to make exactly what I told him to. THAT is what I am paying
him/her for.

People selling products - from computers to programming to website
development - seem to feel that it is important to impress the client
by using every technical term in the books....

There is a HUGE difference between telling you some fancy key words,
and telling you FACT about why your design may be flawed. Without this
information YOU can not make an intellegent decision. Even WITH this
information you may still make a bad decision. But at least you were
informed.

 

[Tony Cooper]

But do you want to know if someone is going to have problems seeing it?
Or do you just want them to make it reguardless of who (or how many)
of your customers can't see it.

In the example used, yes I want a windmill there. From a practical
standpoint, as a person selling a service, you won't get very far
telling your clients that a windmill can't be done in a way that all
viewers will see in its full glory. You might offer to do a page
with a revolving purple windmill and wind noises in the background
over here, and a static windmill graphic over there for the people who
don't have system that displays revolving purple windmills.

The important thing, in my view, is that you don't drone on about the
reason that some viewers won't be able to see the blades turn. Just
give the client a simple alternate that presents what he wants and
also does what you know is right.

I personally, would want the developer to explain to me why my windmill
may not work for everyone. THEN (and only then) can I as the decision
maker make a intelegent desision about the windmill.

I had the impression that you design/develop websites for clients.
Yet, you refer to intelligent decisions. Most products are not
purchased based on intelligent decisions. Watch television ads, look
at magazine ads, or look at websites. What intelligent seller is
appealing to the intelligence of the buyer? Ninety-some percent of
what you purchase will be the result of an emotional buying decision.
The windmill sold you.

There is a HUGE difference between telling you some fancy key words,
and telling you FACT about why your design may be flawed. Without this
information YOU can not make an intellegent decision. Even WITH this
information you may still make a bad decision. But at least you were
informed.

Nah. The client wants his idea implemented. You just have to figure
out how to implement his idea in a way that works. If the client
wants a garden gnome on his page that jumps off the screen and spits
in the viewer's face, you don't tell the client the facts of why this
can't be done. You tell the client you can come up with a page that
gives the viewer the impression that the gnome is spitting in the
viewer's face.

Telling the client too many facts will probably result in the client
turning to the Yellow Pages for a different source. If you are in the
habit of telling clients that their design idea is flawed, you should
have a backup plan for putting groceries on the table. Better you
should tell the client that his plan is a good start, and that you'll
work on a concept that will incorporate his design in a format that
will work.

 

[Travis Newbury]

In the example used, yes I want a windmill there. From a practical
standpoint, as a person selling a service, you won't get very far
telling your clients that a windmill can't be done in a way that all
viewers will see in its full glory.

So, you go into a store and say to the clerk "I want a THIS DVD
burner!"

Do you want the clerk to tell you that the one you have in your hand
may not play on all DVD players? Or should they just let you buy it?

I would want the clerk to inform me of the limitations of my decision.
THEN I will decide if I still want this model.

By the way... I have a bridge you might be interested in...

 

[Tony Cooper]

So, you go into a store and say to the clerk "I want a THIS DVD
burner!"

Do you want the clerk to tell you that the one you have in your hand
may not play on all DVD players? Or should they just let you buy it?

I would want the clerk to inform me of the limitations of my decision.
THEN I will decide if I still want this model.

If I find the rare store clerk that knows the difference, I would
expect him to say that the DVDs created on this burner may not be
playable on all DVD players. I don't expect him to know why, I don't
expect him to tell me why, and I don't expect him to tell me that my
decision is flawed. The more successful store clerk will say "That's
a good burner, but this one over here will burn DVDs that will play on
all DVD players." Rather than fault my decision, he is offering an
alternative that would be better.

Actually, though, isn't it that all DVD players will not play DVDs
created by burners? The limitation is in the player, not the burner
as I understand it.

By the way... I have a bridge you might be interested in...

If you're interested in bridge selling as a profession, romance the
style and the history. Robert McColloch didn't buy London Bridge and
move it to Lake Havasu because of the structural features.

 

[Andy Dingley]

If I was in the market to purchase website design, I can't imagine
hiring a designer that would argue with me about the content,

So who are you hiring here? A designer, a coder or a consultant?

A coder does what you tell them (they've been largely extinct since the
'80s).

A designer makes a design that meets some outline brief. You can change
the brief, but you shouldn't pick holes in a design that meets the brief
- pick a designer you can work with and let them do their job.

A consultant is someone you go to with the brief "Design me a site for
my new TV cartoon tie-in". They'll tell you to make Flash optional and
lightweight on the homepage and main nav, use it entirely to implement
those nice interactive games, and to avoid it completely on the shopping
pages where parent is pestered to buy the tie-in toys. You are engaging
this person because they know what they're doing, in a field where you
don't. You either didn't need them, or you should be listening to them -
don't spend money just to ignore what they tell you.

 

[Travis Newbury]

If I find the rare store clerk that knows the difference, I would
expect him to say that the DVDs created on this burner may not be
playable on all DVD players.

And this is different from your consultant telling you that your page
may not be viewable by your customers how?

 

[Tony Cooper]

And this is different from your consultant telling you that your page
may not be viewable by your customers how?

It is the way the information is offered. You've snipped this down,
but in the body of the posts you've taken the position that the
customer should be informed that the decision is based on flaws, and
I've taken the position that the customer should be offered an
alternate choice that works better. I've also discouraged dwelling to
excess on the technical reasons the original decision could be
improved on.

 

[Tony Cooper]

So who are you hiring here? A designer, a coder or a consultant?

That depends entirely on the job. It also depends on what the person
being hired decides to call himself. The title "consultant" is not
like "licensed pilot". "Consultant", in itself, doesn't mean
anything.

The "content", as I have used it, is what shows up on the screen in
text and graphics. It doesn't refer to how what shows up gets up.

A coder does what you tell them (they've been largely extinct since the
'80s).

A designer makes a design that meets some outline brief. You can change
the brief, but you shouldn't pick holes in a design that meets the brief
- pick a designer you can work with and let them do their job.

A consultant is someone you go to with the brief "Design me a site for
my new TV cartoon tie-in". They'll tell you to make Flash optional and
lightweight on the homepage and main nav, use it entirely to implement
those nice interactive games, and to avoid it completely on the shopping
pages where parent is pestered to buy the tie-in toys. You are engaging
this person because they know what they're doing, in a field where you
don't. You either didn't need them, or you should be listening to them -
don't spend money just to ignore what they tell you.

What do you mean I don't know what I'm doing? If I'm in the business
of selling garden decorations to trailer park residents, I should know
exactly what I'm doing and what appeals to that market. You - the
consultant or designer or whatever - should know how to make the site
come up on the screen and do what its supposed to do.

The client's responsibility should be "this is the effect I'm going
for", and the supplier's responsibility should be "here's how you can
achieve that".

I'm not suggesting that Flash should not be optional and lightweight,
but I am suggesting that if I say that I want the effect of Flash,
your job is to provide it the way it works best and not to say that I
don't need or want that effect. If your suggestion is that a nice,
pebbled beige background is going to work best, then damn right I'm
going to ignore the suggestion if I think that the animated purple
windmill will draw my target market's interest.

I hope I don't have to say this, but - in case - I have no interest or
experience in selling garden decorations to trailer park residents.
I also dislike animated things on websites and music that starts
automatically. I rather like purple, though.

 

[Anze]

It's impossible to track down all of the combinations of users'

operating systems, computer speeds, and browser software, so it is best
just to stay away from javascript altogether. When making an
informational or commercial website, it's very important to take your
audience into consideration.

I almost agree with you. BUT:
- JavaScript, when used properly, can make user experience better
- JavaScript can be written so nobody has problems with it

Believe it or not, some time ago I even made a page with dynamic JS menus
that was accessible to anybody. But since JS was cleverly written it
detected if all of the functions needed were supported and only presented
the menu if all the checks have passed. Otherwise a static menu was left
where it was. Consequently there were no problems with users with JS turned
off, no problems with search engines and similar. The client was happy and
so were the users that had JS enabled - others didn't even know they were
missing something.

By the way, the check I was talking about had NOTHING to do with browser
sniffing. This is an Evil (tm) thing to do. Instead I checked for every
function I used - sth. like this:

if (document.getElementById) {
el=document.getElementById('some_id');
...
}

Regards,

Anze

 

[Andy Dingley]

What do you mean I don't know what I'm doing?

If you are an established retailer of fine quality lawn ornaments for
trailer parks, then you're unlikely to be au fait with web techniques as
well. You may well know many important things about ornaments and
clients, which your brief should cover (such as selling the expensive
lightweight winged doves to New Orleans brings in repeat business every
tornado season). However you'll not know the difference between Flash
and DHTML, or AJAX and Cillit Bang.

 

[Tony Cooper]

If you are an established retailer of fine quality lawn ornaments for
trailer parks,

Isn't this a non sequitur?

then you're unlikely to be au fait with web techniques as
well. You may well know many important things about ornaments and
clients, which your brief should cover (such as selling the expensive
lightweight winged doves to New Orleans brings in repeat business every
tornado season). However you'll not know the difference between Flash
and DHTML, or AJAX and Cillit Bang.

I do understand that, but I also know that I can be successful in
purchasing an automobile without understanding how the internal
combustion engine works.

Speaking of New Orleans, they say the first baby born there after the
hurricane was named Fema since it took nine months to arrive.

 

[Travis Newbury]

Please post a link. Not that I need one right now, but you can
never be to careful.

http://www.baseballmusings.com/archives/005770.php

Actually, if you google colon transplant you will find quite a few
references.

( )*( )

 

[Travis Newbury]

It is the way the information is offered...

You agree, but you just didn't like the way it was said.

 

[Travis Newbury]

Speaking of New Orleans, they say the first baby born there
after the hurricane was named Fema since it took nine months to
arrive.

ba-da-bing...

 

[dorayme]

How so? Because I would tell the client that I though "something"
was dumb, but when he disagreed with me I go ahead and do it for
them? How is that dumb?


No, read what I said. You have to both READ and UNDERSTAND what
you read or your reply makes you sound really stupid.
....

1. Read the post.
2. Understand what you read.
3. Make your reply.

(You seemed to have missed step 2)

I must just make a quick note to be a notch nicer to you Travis
in future as this is /a most sensible/ reply to our young
hothead here...

I don't suppose I could subcontract out to you when I have to
deal with such guys in future (honour demands some sort of
reckoning...). You show promise at it. What can I offer you in
return? No one seems that keen on my Polish collection (this one
is a bit bare, has only one member). You are likely not
interested in NZ ones? What about Texas ones or Israeli ones
(who does not like Israeli ones? Arabs maybe? I have some Arabic
ones...?). (psst... what about some nice wrist watches...?)

dorayme

 

[Travis Newbury]

I don't. This just doesn't seem to happen on the web. You build
it, it works, off you go. At best you might get a recommendation
for another site, but there just doesn't seem to be a _need_ for
re-work in this way.

Plenty of new training all the time. And as more companies take a
hold of CBTs or WBTs we get more calls all the time. TONS of
people coming back because there are so few companies offering
this.

Years ago I worked in car factories, instrumenting big machine
tools. 2/3 of the work for about 10 people came from the same
handful of factories, often the same machines. We'd be back in
there every month or so on some of them, as soon as we had a new
idea to improve the process.

Oddly though this contract was a call-back. They have a rather
arcane CMS they've developed in-house and as I was there last
year on a different project I'm one of vey few people (6
worldwide!) who had any experience of it.

I put myself through college playing in a rock band back in the
late 70's Then it was off to work selling cars... (Fords, not that
it matters) I finally got a gig in DC creating a BBS for the IRS
(anyone remember Mustang?). Then I moved to japan and wrote
financial software that linked the Military pay system to the
Japanese banking system. I also got to teach computer science for
alocal College anex (Central Texas College)

Left Japan Moved to back to the states, and worked for Northern
Trust on the web based system that maintained Enron's retirment
fund. I left 3 weeks before the feds moved in and froze
everything.

I left to start developing Flash for the PGA and LPGA. Now I
create training and simulations for fortune 500 companies, and,
together with my son, have just opened a production company that
makes music videos, corporate training videos, and documentaries.

 

[dorayme]

visa 4560 1000 1645 1071 4181

It was just a test, Travis. I could not really take your
money... (my my, you do have a lot in there I notice... you
*must* be making a lot of purple spinning thingimajigs...)

If one gets upset over something written in alt.html, they
really need
to move on.

Now now Travis old chap... You can't get rid of me that easily!
Besides, my shrink says it is therapy, that this *is* an
excellent place to get upset, she mumbles things about
"displacement therapy"... Well, displacement, dishsplacement, I
have found I can displace /her/ a bit by seeing her less and you
more and save myself heaps of money (and thereby not have to do
too much purple-spinning-web-construction... Travis, you need to
take more advantage of alt.html... you won't drink so much and
see therapists less...

dorayme

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, Dylan Parry quothed:

Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Neredbojias scraped:


Then call me something else then. I don't mind what you call me really
Actually, I kinda like the idea of being avante garde!

Yeah, it's really good. And I was just kidding about the the "weird"
part. Let's face it - weirder than "Neredbojias"?

 

[dorayme]

Interesting, I see it differently. I see Parry as the cynical one by
leaving his client in a lurch if the client does not do what Parry
says.

Tell me again, who's website is it?

I am embarrassed you have asked this quite penetrating question.
I realise now that I tend to think the websites I make are mine.
Like the photographs I have sold over the years, I don't really
deep down think the people who paid for them own them... Tell
you the truth, I want them all back, goddamit.

Seriously, you are right to cooperate and ameliorate the demands
of your customers. It all comes down to emphasis, how easily you
give in, how strong you fight, your standing and authority, your
reputation, your bookings, your love for the green stuff and so
on. There really is no objective answer on this little debate. I
just kind of like the Parry line, it is like watching heroes in
movies, I like that moral feeling a lot... I don't think I am on
this earth to just be practical... I was sent here without clear
instructions.

dorayme

 

[dorayme]

Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Travis Newbury scraped:


I see you two as really pissing me off calling me by my surname.

Dylan, Dylan! Now don't you be getting all upset... it's an
English thing, to be using surnames. In my case a mark of great
respect for a man of the highest moral standards. Trust me, old
boy...

dorayme