Exportability of EDA industry from North America?

Discussion in 'VHDL' started by EDA wannabe, Dec 16, 2004.

  1. EDA wannabe

    EDA wannabe Guest

    Some colleagues and I were discussing the situation with the high tech
    industry, with jobs moving out of North America. This has hit circuit
    designers hard, especially those in digital. Can EDA tool development
    be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened? If not, what
    are the factors that differentiate it from design work to make it less
    exportable? Comments are also welcome for automatation of methodologies
    for programmable system-on-chip e.g. reconfigurable processor arrays.
     
    EDA wannabe, Dec 16, 2004
    #1
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  2. EDA wannabe

    JJ Guest

    EDA wannabe wrote:
    > Some colleagues and I were discussing the situation with the high

    tech
    > industry, with jobs moving out of North America. This has hit

    circuit
    > designers hard, especially those in digital. Can EDA tool

    development
    > be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened? If not, what
    > are the factors that differentiate it from design work to make it

    less
    > exportable? Comments are also welcome for automatation of

    methodologies
    > for programmable system-on-chip e.g. reconfigurable processor arrays.


    Sorry bud but its already gone offshore big time, Romania, Russia,
    India all have EDA sites now, read EET to see who is doing the
    shipping. I long lost interest in EDA except to create own stuff. The
    EDA biz was always less profitable than the customer base so its no
    surprise.

    regards

    johnjakson_usa_com
     
    JJ, Dec 16, 2004
    #2
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  3. EDA wannabe

    Paul Burke Guest

    EDA wannabe wrote:
    > Can EDA tool development
    > be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened?


    EdWin, the nightmarish Swedish PCB CAD system, has been "developed" in
    India for several years now.

    Paul Burke
     
    Paul Burke, Dec 16, 2004
    #3
  4. EDA wannabe

    Phil Tomson Guest

    In article <>,
    EDA wannabe <> wrote:
    >Some colleagues and I were discussing the situation with the high tech
    >industry, with jobs moving out of North America. This has hit circuit
    >designers hard, especially those in digital. Can EDA tool development
    >be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened?


    It's already happening to a large degree. Most of the big EDA companies
    have India/China SW R&D offices.

    > If not, what
    >are the factors that differentiate it from design work to make it less
    >exportable?


    It's just as easy to export EDA development jobs as it is to export
    circuit design. Might be easier since software developers are readily
    available.

    Probably the best bet if you want an EDA job in the US is to get a PhD,
    but even some of the highlevel research is starting to move over.


    It's not a pretty picture. The standard of living will likely have to
    fall a good bit in the US before you see these kinds of jobs move back.

    Phil
     
    Phil Tomson, Dec 16, 2004
    #4
  5. I read in sci.electronics.design that Phil Tomson <>
    wrote (in <>) about 'Exportability of EDA
    industry from North America?', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:

    >It's not a pretty picture. The standard of living will likely have to
    >fall a good bit in the US before you see these kinds of jobs move back.


    Or the standard of living elsewhere will have to rise.

    The removal of WTO quotas for clothing exports from developing countries
    is said to spell trouble for ... - no, Bangladesh! Apparently India and
    China can undercut the Bangla manufacturers.
    --
    Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
    The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
    The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
    http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
     
    John Woodgate, Dec 16, 2004
    #5
  6. EDA wannabe wrote:

    > Some colleagues and I were discussing the situation with the high tech
    > industry, with jobs moving out of North America. This has hit circuit
    > designers hard, especially those in digital. Can EDA tool development
    > be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened? If not, what
    > are the factors that differentiate it from design work to make it less
    > exportable? Comments are also welcome for automatation of methodologies
    > for programmable system-on-chip e.g. reconfigurable processor arrays.



    This has been happening for quite some time now. At first
    (during the "good times") companies have been moving jobs
    to India and China because there where not enough engineers
    available in the US. Than during the recession, companies
    have been moving/continuing to use India and China because
    they *appear* to be cheaper than local talent.

    And I think it is very important to analyze the cost "savings"
    in greater detail. The truth is that engineers in these
    developing countries, are less experienced and do not have the
    needed background of pulling through large projects. As smart
    as they may be, doing a large project and coordinating some 100
    engineers is a tough task. My personal experience with products
    coming from the developing/low cost countries, is that the quality
    of workmanship is just not there YET. Many of the "savings" are
    getting killed because things have to be rewritten/redesigned/fixed/
    start over from scratch. Typically the decisions of outsourcing
    is done by upper management without any feedback from any senior
    engineers in the US. Managers and engineers are hired in the
    developing countries with the expectation that they will deliver
    good of same quality as their US counterparts. So far in my opinion
    this has not happened (YET !).

    I believe that in the next 5-10 years we will see the experience
    level increase and the quality of products to start reaching the
    same levels as what we would expect form US based engineers. At
    the same time, I believe, these engineers expectations will be
    raising as well. As these engineers become more senior and
    experienced, many of them will have the opportunity to go to the
    US and get a "high-paying" job. As such the "cost advantage"
    together with the lower expectation in the US (which will be in
    my opinion a natural development) will become a wash.

    Overall I believe we will see a few swings back and forth of this
    outsourcing "problem" the US is facing. After a while this will
    become irrelevant as all of the developing countries will become
    also leaders on the same level as the US. I think if the US does
    not start attracting new internal engineers by providing more
    incentives for students, it, as a whole country, will eventually
    fall behind in the technology sector, which will be led by Japan,
    China and India (in this order - I believe). I believe this fall
    back, can already be observed in the automotive industry ...
    And that, will be by far a much larger problem everybody in the US
    will face than the outsourcing you see today.

    Best Regards,
    rudi
    =============================================================
    Rudolf Usselmann, ASICS World Services, http://www.asics.ws
    Your Partner for IP Cores, Design, Verification and Synthesis
     
    Rudolf Usselmann, Dec 16, 2004
    #6
  7. EDA wannabe

    Phil Tomson Guest

    In article <aqUz8KBGOYwBFw$>,
    John Woodgate <> wrote:
    >I read in sci.electronics.design that Phil Tomson <>
    >wrote (in <>) about 'Exportability of EDA
    >industry from North America?', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:
    >
    >>It's not a pretty picture. The standard of living will likely have to
    >>fall a good bit in the US before you see these kinds of jobs move back.

    >
    >Or the standard of living elsewhere will have to rise.


    True. We'll have to meet in the middle somewhere. This is partly why the
    dollar is falling (also because of the national debt, of course). The
    fact remains that the US standard of living will have to fall in this kind
    of a free-trade system. It's not going to be pretty for the US standard
    of living to fall that way - it hasn't really happened before.

    Phil
     
    Phil Tomson, Dec 16, 2004
    #7
  8. EDA wannabe

    EDA wannabe Guest

    Phil Tomson wrote:
    >
    > Probably the best bet if you want an EDA job in the US is to get a PhD,
    > but even some of the highlevel research is starting to move over.
    >
    > It's not a pretty picture. The standard of living will likely have to
    > fall a good bit in the US before you see these kinds of jobs move back.



    I understand that there must be some level of parity before the jobs start
    flowing back. Regarding the comment about a Ph.D., I am actually speaking
    about the outlook for someone completing an advance degree. Typically,
    though, the relevance of even R&D tends to follow the prevalence of the
    associated application, so if the industry practice moves elsewhere, the
    relevance and value of the R&D is likely to follow (I surmise). So I'm
    wondering how much the R&D in this area will likely be eroded in North
    America.

    As well, the angle I'm interested in is that of combinatoric algorithms in
    mapping applications to prefabricated systems-on-chip, or configurable
    platforms. That might be nonstandard enough to maintain a presence in
    North America. It all depends on the experience and grounding of
    alternative, more economic countries in this knowledge area. Especially in
    terms of university activity.

    I would also imagine that the more niche-like the area, the less attractive
    it is for developing countries. It seems like the road to development
    typically tries to capitalize on large anticipated markets for a particular
    skill set or technology. I wonder how much this will protect against
    erosion of R&D in North America. Of course, any opinions will necessarily
    be highly speculative, but it would be interesting to hear rationales for
    them.

    Aside from the doom and gloom of predicting the potential decline of an
    industry and area of R&D, I wonder about the likely challenges in transferring
    the associated experience into other areas. Combinatoric problems are a
    very general label, and I'm sure there is much crucial, domain-specific knowledge
    to make such a skill set valuable.
     
    EDA wannabe, Dec 16, 2004
    #8
  9. EDA wannabe

    Phil Tomson Guest

    In article <>,
    EDA wannabe <> wrote:
    >
    >Aside from the doom and gloom of predicting the potential decline of an
    >industry and area of R&D, I wonder about the likely challenges in transferring
    >the associated experience into other areas. Combinatoric problems are a
    >very general label, and I'm sure there is much crucial, domain-specific
    >knowledge
    >to make such a skill set valuable.


    I am beginning to think along these lines as well. Areas like datamining
    or bioinformatics will likely dwarf EDA in terms of revenue (and thus
    more jobs will be available in those areas). It might be
    better to think of Google instead of [Synopsys|Mentor|Cadence|etc] as a
    potential employer. I also am a grad student (with a lot of years of
    'real-world' experience) and whereas I was aiming toward EDA in my
    studies, now I'm starting to think about branching out into a different
    area that might be growing faster... but I'm still very interested in EDA.

    Phil
     
    Phil Tomson, Dec 17, 2004
    #9
  10. Phil Tomson wrote:

    > I also am a grad student (with a lot of years of
    > 'real-world' experience) and whereas I was aiming toward EDA in my
    > studies, now I'm starting to think about branching out into a different
    > area that might be growing faster... but I'm still very interested in EDA.


    Then stick with EDA.
    There is a very good chance that your future
    job will not be directly related to your
    course of study in any case.
    The important thing is to enjoy what you are doing.

    -- Mike Treseler
     
    Mike Treseler, Dec 17, 2004
    #10
  11. EDA wannabe wrote:
    > Some colleagues and I were discussing the situation with the high tech
    > industry, with jobs moving out of North America. This has hit circuit
    > designers hard, especially those in digital. Can EDA tool development
    > be expected to follow suit, is has it already happened? If not, what
    > are the factors that differentiate it from design work to make it less
    > exportable? Comments are also welcome for automatation of methodologies
    > for programmable system-on-chip e.g. reconfigurable processor arrays.
    >


    I would say it is time for the EDA industry to flip to open source code.
    All the fabless startups are just killed by the tool expenditures they
    need to make.

    1. OpenSource simulator:
    analog -> spice
    digital->?
    mixed->?
    2. Schematic capture
    3. Netlister/code capture. I don't think even the professional EDA tools
    have this right. Why does multiplier.sch or multipler.c have only 1
    view. Why not version control/views built into the editor where the
    netlister can be set to grab different versions or the editor highlight
    the delta's. A configuration view that sees all views from system level
    to extracted with all their associated versions and tags.
    4. Layout editor/GDS viewer. How many polygons does a video game push?
    5. Schematic/Layout/System viewers that allow properties to attach.
    Wires colored by current, sized by voltage. Visualization tools.

    I think the industry needs open source tools.
     
    Richard Griffith, Jan 13, 2005
    #11
  12. (Phil Tomson) wrote in
    news::

    > In article <aqUz8KBGOYwBFw$>,
    > John Woodgate <> wrote:
    >>I read in sci.electronics.design that Phil Tomson <>
    >>wrote (in <>) about 'Exportability of
    >>EDA industry from North America?', on Thu, 16 Dec 2004:
    >>
    >>>It's not a pretty picture. The standard of living will likely have
    >>>to fall a good bit in the US before you see these kinds of jobs move
    >>>back.

    >>
    >>Or the standard of living elsewhere will have to rise.

    >
    > True. We'll have to meet in the middle somewhere. This is partly why
    > the dollar is falling (also because of the national debt, of course).
    > The fact remains that the US standard of living will have to fall in
    > this kind of a free-trade system. It's not going to be pretty for the
    > US standard of living to fall that way - it hasn't really happened
    > before.
    >
    > Phil


    Meeting in the middle will be very hard for Americans, especially when
    the middle will be population-weighted billions of Indians and Chinese
    200 plus million of us in the USA. Already those high paid Malysians
    and others in Asia have been squeezed by the even lower cost Chinese.
    The middle probably represents a per capita income of $5,000.

    Once all the technology and industry that are the basis of the USA's
    strength are transported to Asia, we'll see how our position in the
    world changes. Once all the technical people are over there, they will
    be the onese in the drivers seat. And they will not need American CEOS
    for long. No it won't be pretty.

    Since China has its currency tied to the dollar, there has been no self
    correcting economic feeback loop to stem the trade deficit with them.
    Otherwise our currency would have fallen against theirs and the price of
    their products would have gone up. Instead we are in a death spiral
    with an elephant.

    Not that all is rosy for the Chinese or the CEOs sending all the work
    there. All the Chinese banks are insolvant, there is no financial
    transparency, corruption is rampant, contracts may not be enforcable,
    intellectual property is stolen outright, its difficult to take money
    out of the country, the political situation can change at any moment, a
    billion peasants are poor and restless and then there is Tiawan.

    With those negatives you have to wonder what these CEOs are thinking by
    placing their balls firmly in the grasp of the Chinese.
     
    Winston Smith, Feb 4, 2005
    #12
  13. On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 00:46:08 GMT, the renowned Winston Smith
    <> wrote:

    >With those negatives you have to wonder what these CEOs are thinking by
    >placing their balls firmly in the grasp of the Chinese.


    The motivation is green (at least the US version is) and there is lots
    and lots of it to be had.


    Best regards,
    Spehro Pefhany
    --
    "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
    Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
    Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
     
    Spehro Pefhany, Feb 4, 2005
    #13
  14. EDA wannabe

    Joerg Guest

    Hello Spehro,

    >The motivation is green (at least the US version is) and there is lots
    >and lots of it to be had.
    >
    >


    It might not always pan out that way. I am just transitioning to a
    European CAD program so the green flows in the other direction. They
    didn't outsource it and still had the best pricing.

    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com
     
    Joerg, Feb 4, 2005
    #14
  15. On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 01:34:47 GMT, the renowned Joerg
    <> wrote:

    >Hello Spehro,
    >
    >>The motivation is green (at least the US version is) and there is lots
    >>and lots of it to be had.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >It might not always pan out that way. I am just transitioning to a
    >European CAD program so the green flows in the other direction. They
    >didn't outsource it and still had the best pricing.
    >
    >Regards, Joerg
    >
    >http://www.analogconsultants.com


    Do you know that for a fact? A while ago I was talking to some
    developers who worked with their company's "European" team on a large
    software project- in St. Petersburg Russia.


    Best regards,
    Spehro Pefhany
    --
    "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
    Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
    Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
     
    Spehro Pefhany, Feb 4, 2005
    #15
  16. Spehro Pefhany wrote:

    > Do you know that for a fact? A while ago I was talking to some
    > developers who worked with their company's "European" team on a large
    > software project- in St. Petersburg Russia.


    That part of Russia belongs to the old definition of Europe, and most of
    them wants to join the European Union, because in the European Union it
    is forbidden to discriminate work.

    I think it is more a question what the salary is compared to level and
    quality of education. Many of the former east-block countries have
    exellent engineers and they are not so expencive as the western-european
    engineers.

    It is such a pity that most of the politicians who put up the legal
    framework for globalization never had to face competition on uneven levels
    --
    Svenn
     
    Svenn Are Bjerkem, Feb 4, 2005
    #16
  17. On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 09:32:11 +0100, the renowned Svenn Are Bjerkem
    <> wrote:

    >Spehro Pefhany wrote:
    >
    >> Do you know that for a fact? A while ago I was talking to some
    >> developers who worked with their company's "European" team on a large
    >> software project- in St. Petersburg Russia.

    >
    >That part of Russia belongs to the old definition of Europe, and most of
    >them wants to join the European Union, because in the European Union it
    >is forbidden to discriminate work.
    >
    >I think it is more a question what the salary is compared to level and
    >quality of education. Many of the former east-block countries have
    >exellent engineers and they are not so expencive as the western-european
    >engineers.


    Yes, I believe that Western Russia (and Western Turkey, for that
    matter) is European in culture. In this case, there was a deliberate
    attempt to make it look like the work was done in Germany without
    actually lying. Kind of like saying "North American" and giving a
    North Carolina US address, but doing the bulk of the work in Cuba or
    Honduras.

    >It is such a pity that most of the politicians who put up the legal
    >framework for globalization never had to face competition on uneven levels


    I imagine that they are indirectly profiting from it.


    Best regards,
    Spehro Pefhany
    --
    "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
    Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
    Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
     
    Spehro Pefhany, Feb 4, 2005
    #17
  18. I read in sci.electronics.design that Svenn Are Bjerkem
    <> wrote (in <ctvbub$afc$>
    ) about 'Exportability of EDA industry from North America?', on Fri, 4
    Feb 2005:

    >It is such a pity that most of the politicians who put up the legal
    >framework for globalization never had to face competition on uneven
    >levels


    They did , but their levels were the highest!
    --
    Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
    The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
    The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
    http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk
     
    John Woodgate, Feb 4, 2005
    #18
  19. EDA wannabe

    fogh Guest

    John Woodgate wrote:
    >>It is such a pity that most of the politicians who put up the legal
    >>framework for globalization never had to face competition on uneven
    >>levels

    > They did , but their levels were the highest!


    Given the statistics of politician population, that statement smells of racism
    and sexism.
     
    fogh, Feb 4, 2005
    #19
  20. EDA wannabe

    Joerg Guest

    Hello Spehro,

    >>It might not always pan out that way. I am just transitioning to a
    >>European CAD program so the green flows in the other direction. They
    >>didn't outsource it and still had the best pricing.
    >>
    >>

    >Do you know that for a fact? A while ago I was talking to some
    >developers who worked with their company's "European" team on a large
    >software project- in St. Petersburg Russia.
    >
    >


    Sure, as a customer thousands of miles away you may not know for sure.
    But there is one telltale sign that pops up when you have a tough
    question. That will often require the original programmer or designer to
    answer. Accents are really hard to hide. Like with a graphics card
    manufacturer in Canada. When I got answers such as 'that's aboot right'
    or I heard 'Bonjour' I somehow knew it's got to be Canada ;-)

    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com
     
    Joerg, Feb 4, 2005
    #20
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