External style-sheet for disabled people.

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Luigi Donatello Asero, Jun 27, 2004.

  1. Luigi Donatello Asero, Jun 27, 2004
    #1
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  2. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Andy Dingley Guest

    "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message news:<MKCDc.3767$>...
    > What is an external style-sheet for disabled people?


    No such thing - and this is a rather vague and sloppy way of wording
    things, so it's hard to see what's really being discussed here.

    For one thing, there are no "disabled" people. There are people with
    disabilities, but you can't lump them all together into one pot lile
    this. Good accessibility for a blind user doesn't make the same
    demands that accessibility for a poorly-sighted person might do, let
    alone someone with motor control problems or autism. A totally blind
    user might be using a screen reader and that benefits from some
    additional descriptive markup, the partially sighted reader might be
    able to read text for themself, so long as they can enlarge it
    sufficiently and still get a reasonable scroll order. Fortunately
    there are design techniques that help to meet all of these constraints
    simultaneously - it's rare that improving accessibility for one group
    would reduce it for others.

    CSS is no guarantee of accessibility, and it's not even much help to
    achieving it. What is useful is the "CSS mindset" when applied to
    design. You can't achieve accessibility just by using <link
    media="disabled" ... /> and a magic stylesheet that makes the page
    accessible. And if you could do so, why wouldn't you serve that to all
    users ? For presentation stylesheets, there _is_ a problem that making
    it accessible for one group might make it worse for another. Although
    individual users might be able to meet their needs by applying a user
    stylesheet, we (as page designers) can't do this for them because we
    don't know just what their needs are. There is no single group of
    "disabled" people.

    "CSS techniques" allow us a couple of useful avenues for accessible
    design though. Mainly they separate content and presentation, so the
    ability to easily offer a content-only version of the page can itself
    be helpful. The most accessible page is often not the one with special
    "disabled styling", but the one with all styling and CSS turned _off_.
    This either simplifies things, or it allows the user to apply their
    own styling - it's their disability, they're the best judge of it, and
    they often understand best how styling can help. Maybe it's as simple
    as mapping all red or green colours to different brightnesses, so as
    to overcome red/green colour blindness.

    The core of good CSS design is to strip presentation out of the
    content, and to leve behind content that is still usable without any
    CSS. Think about document order, getting the sections in a meaningful
    sequence. Imagine using the page as a single long line of ticker-tape
    and having to scroll back and forth through it - how easy is this ?
    Can internal jump menus within the page help ?

    Then there's the annotation aspect of usability. Use title attributes
    generously (I hope I don't have to describe alt usage again !). Wrap
    related items in <div>s and give the <div> a relevant title. Even
    though you might not want this as a heading, it can help with
    navigation around the page. You may even wish to use a "breadcrumb"
    approach for the content of these titles. Get your spelling right too,
    for most screen readers can pronounce their dictionary words better
    than mis-spellings.

    General design stuff: Put things on the page because they're useful,
    not otherwise. Enough of the animated .gif eye-candy, the Flash
    banners, the JS-only menus. You don't _need_ this stuff, it causes
    problems, so don't do it.

    Maybe you do need some complex Java applet client-side data browser
    (sometimes these problems are just hard and their solutions are
    complex). Then build an alternative if you have to, and you can't make
    the mainstream route accesssible itself.

    When it finally comes to CSS, the techniques are generally better
    known. Use text size units that are easily user-scalable. Allow for
    fluid layout on devices with unusual window sizes. All that good
    stuff.


    > "Example of source code: <link rel=stylesheet type="text / css"
    > href="section508.css>"


    I cannot imagine any scenario (suggestions welcome!) where
    "section508.css" is either a sensible intention for a CSS stylesheet,
    or a sensible name for a generalised CSS stylesheet. Don't segregate
    accessibility like this - build it into your mainstream styling.


    > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)


    Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.
     
    Andy Dingley, Jun 28, 2004
    #2
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  3. Luigi Donatello Asero

    SpaceGirl Guest

    <snip superb reply>

    > Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.


    Perfect. People need to *think* once in a while, instead of just jumping
    on yet another bandwagon.


    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Jun 28, 2004
    #3
  4. Luigi Donatello Asero

    rf Guest

    "Andy Dingley" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message

    news:<MKCDc.3767$>...

    > > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)

    >
    > Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.


    That page tells other people how to do things. That does not mean the the
    page should do those things itself. It is, after all, a page produced by a
    government :)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jun 28, 2004
    #4
  5. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Els Guest

    rf wrote:

    >> > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)

    >>
    >> Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability
    >> wise.

    >
    > That page tells other people how to do things. That does
    > not mean the the page should do those things itself. It is,
    > after all, a page produced by a government :)


    <g>

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
    Now playing: D:A:D - Bad Craziness
     
    Els, Jun 28, 2004
    #5
  6. "Andy Dingley" <> skrev i meddelandet
    news:...
    > "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message

    news:<MKCDc.3767$>...
    > > What is an external style-sheet for disabled people?

    >
    > No such thing - and this is a rather vague and sloppy way of wording
    > things, so it's hard to see what's really being discussed here.
    >
    > For one thing, there are no "disabled" people. There are people with
    > disabilities, but you can't lump them all together into one pot lile
    > this. Good accessibility for a blind user doesn't make the same
    > demands that accessibility for a poorly-sighted person might do, let
    > alone someone with motor control problems or autism. A totally blind
    > user might be using a screen reader and that benefits from some
    > additional descriptive markup, the partially sighted reader might be
    > able to read text for themself, so long as they can enlarge it
    > sufficiently and still get a reasonable scroll order. Fortunately
    > there are design techniques that help to meet all of these constraints
    > simultaneously - it's rare that improving accessibility for one group
    > would reduce it for others.
    >
    > CSS is no guarantee of accessibility, and it's not even much help to
    > achieving it. What is useful is the "CSS mindset" when applied to
    > design. You can't achieve accessibility just by using <link
    > media="disabled" ... /> and a magic stylesheet that makes the page
    > accessible. And if you could do so, why wouldn't you serve that to all
    > users ? For presentation stylesheets, there _is_ a problem that making
    > it accessible for one group might make it worse for another. Although
    > individual users might be able to meet their needs by applying a user
    > stylesheet, we (as page designers) can't do this for them because we
    > don't know just what their needs are. There is no single group of
    > "disabled" people.
    >
    > "CSS techniques" allow us a couple of useful avenues for accessible
    > design though. Mainly they separate content and presentation, so the
    > ability to easily offer a content-only version of the page can itself
    > be helpful. The most accessible page is often not the one with special
    > "disabled styling", but the one with all styling and CSS turned _off_.
    > This either simplifies things, or it allows the user to apply their
    > own styling - it's their disability, they're the best judge of it, and
    > they often understand best how styling can help. Maybe it's as simple
    > as mapping all red or green colours to different brightnesses, so as
    > to overcome red/green colour blindness.
    >
    > The core of good CSS design is to strip presentation out of the
    > content, and to leve behind content that is still usable without any
    > CSS. Think about document order, getting the sections in a meaningful
    > sequence. Imagine using the page as a single long line of ticker-tape
    > and having to scroll back and forth through it - how easy is this ?
    > Can internal jump menus within the page help ?
    >
    > Then there's the annotation aspect of usability. Use title attributes
    > generously (I hope I don't have to describe alt usage again !). Wrap
    > related items in <div>s and give the <div> a relevant title. Even
    > though you might not want this as a heading, it can help with
    > navigation around the page. You may even wish to use a "breadcrumb"
    > approach for the content of these titles. Get your spelling right too,
    > for most screen readers can pronounce their dictionary words better
    > than mis-spellings.
    >
    > General design stuff: Put things on the page because they're useful,
    > not otherwise. Enough of the animated .gif eye-candy, the Flash
    > banners, the JS-only menus. You don't _need_ this stuff, it causes
    > problems, so don't do it.
    >
    > Maybe you do need some complex Java applet client-side data browser
    > (sometimes these problems are just hard and their solutions are
    > complex). Then build an alternative if you have to, and you can't make
    > the mainstream route accesssible itself.
    >
    > When it finally comes to CSS, the techniques are generally better
    > known. Use text size units that are easily user-scalable. Allow for
    > fluid layout on devices with unusual window sizes. All that good
    > stuff.
    >
    >
    > > "Example of source code: <link rel=stylesheet type="text / css"
    > > href="section508.css>"

    >
    > I cannot imagine any scenario (suggestions welcome!) where
    > "section508.css" is either a sensible intention for a CSS stylesheet,
    > or a sensible name for a generalised CSS stylesheet. Don't segregate
    > accessibility like this - build it into your mainstream styling.
    >
    >
    > > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)

    >
    > Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.

    Did you read the content of that page?
    --
    Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
    http://www.italymap.dk/sv/italien-karta.html
    http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/marciana.html
     
    Luigi Donatello Asero, Jun 28, 2004
    #6
  7. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Neal Guest

    On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:46:48 GMT, rf <> wrote:

    >
    > "Andy Dingley" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message

    > news:<MKCDc.3767$>...
    >
    >> > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)

    >>
    >> Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.

    >
    > That page tells other people how to do things. That does not mean the the
    > page should do those things itself. It is, after all, a page produced by
    > a
    > government :)
    >



    It's like taking fitness advice from a fat guy.
     
    Neal, Jun 28, 2004
    #7
  8. Neal wrote:
    > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:46:48 GMT, rf <> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> "Andy Dingley" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>> "Luigi Donatello Asero" <> wrote in message

    >>
    >> news:<MKCDc.3767$>...
    >>
    >>> > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)
    >>>
    >>> Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.

    >>
    >>
    >> That page tells other people how to do things. That does not mean the the
    >> page should do those things itself. It is, after all, a page produced
    >> by a
    >> government :)
    >>

    >
    >
    > It's like taking fitness advice from a fat guy.


    That's like not taking heart surgery unless the surgeon has a heart
    defect himself.


    Matthias
     
    Matthias Gutfeldt, Jun 28, 2004
    #8
  9. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Neal Guest

    On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:41:09 +0200, Matthias Gutfeldt
    <> wrote:

    > Neal wrote:
    >>
    >> It's like taking fitness advice from a fat guy.

    >
    > That's like not taking heart surgery unless the surgeon has a heart
    > defect himself.
    >
    >
    > Matthias
    >



    Well, how about refusing a heart surgeon because he doesn't have a heart?

    People do argue that priests are not qualified to counsel married couples,
    as they're not allowed to marry themselves.

    But still, my point is that if someone is giving advice, even totally
    sound advice, it's hard to believe the individual knows what they're
    talking about if they themselves aren't doing it. A site teaching graphic
    design should have good graphic design. An HTML tutorial should have sound
    HTML. A website detailing accessibility should be accessible.

    Example - I accompanied my girlfriend (who danced for 20 years and was a
    dance instructor until a few years ago) to a mutual friend's daughter's
    dance recital. There were three "teacher" dances in the recital. I'm no
    dancer, but I didn't think they were all that impressive dancers as
    teachers. But my gf, being a little more knowledgeable about these things,
    pointed out that the teacher dance is a perfect way to show parents, "This
    is why your son/daughter should study in this studio." They failed at that
    - the dance wasn't either technically showy or particularly visually
    interesting - and as a result of that (and other factors, likely), this
    studio's enrollment happens to be going down.

    In a nutshell, "practice what you preach."
     
    Neal, Jun 28, 2004
    #9
  10. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Andy Dingley Guest

    "rf" <> wrote in message news:<sGSDc.68711$>...

    > That page tells other people how to do things. That does not mean the the
    > page should do those things itself.


    This is perhaps allowable (the "Nielsen Defence"). However it ought to
    refer to at least one example of "best practice", and there's no
    reason why this couldn't be the page itself. Directives that some
    requirement must be met, without assistance to do so, help no-one.

    And IMHO, the Nielsen Defence is entirely bogus.
     
    Andy Dingley, Jun 28, 2004
    #10
  11. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Karl Groves Guest

    "Neal" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...

    > But still, my point is that if someone is giving advice, even totally
    > sound advice, it's hard to believe the individual knows what they're
    > talking about if they themselves aren't doing it.


    Your first day in town, you're taken aback by how little this small town has
    to offer.
    For one thing, they only have two barbers! One guy has a shabby little shop
    that looks like an abandoned building. The place is messy, stinky, and the
    guy that runs it is a big slob with a bad haircut.
    Right across the street is his competition - a nice young man, with a
    beautiful shop, like-new equipment, and a great haircut.
    Which man do you go to for your haircut?


    -Karl
     
    Karl Groves, Jun 28, 2004
    #11
  12. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Els Guest

    Karl Groves wrote:

    > "Neal" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:...
    >
    >> But still, my point is that if someone is giving advice,
    >> even totally sound advice, it's hard to believe the
    >> individual knows what they're talking about if they
    >> themselves aren't doing it.

    >
    > Your first day in town, you're taken aback by how little
    > this small town has to offer.
    > For one thing, they only have two barbers! One guy has a
    > shabby little shop that looks like an abandoned building.
    > The place is messy, stinky, and the guy that runs it is a
    > big slob with a bad haircut. Right across the street is his
    > competition - a nice young man, with a beautiful shop,
    > like-new equipment, and a great haircut. Which man do you
    > go to for your haircut?


    The first one; if he is still in business despite all the stuff
    you just mentioned, he must be good ;-)

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
    Now playing: Anita Ward - Ring My Bell
     
    Els, Jun 28, 2004
    #12
  13. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Neal Guest

    On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:53:50 -0400, Karl Groves <>
    wrote:

    >
    > "Neal" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:...
    >
    >> But still, my point is that if someone is giving advice, even totally
    >> sound advice, it's hard to believe the individual knows what they're
    >> talking about if they themselves aren't doing it.

    >
    > Your first day in town, you're taken aback by how little this small town
    > has
    > to offer.
    > For one thing, they only have two barbers! One guy has a shabby little
    > shop
    > that looks like an abandoned building. The place is messy, stinky, and
    > the
    > guy that runs it is a big slob with a bad haircut.
    > Right across the street is his competition - a nice young man, with a
    > beautiful shop, like-new equipment, and a great haircut.
    > Which man do you go to for your haircut?


    The slob, of course, as he obviously gave the other barber his haircut!

    Surely its next to impossible to give yourself a decent haircut. Are you
    suggesting that an accessibility expert cannot make one's own site
    accessible?
     
    Neal, Jun 28, 2004
    #13
  14. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Dylan Parry Guest

    Karl Groves wrote:

    > Which man do you go to for your haircut?


    The first one. The second one obviously goes to the first to get his hair
    cut as there are only two barbers, whereas the first has poor hair because
    his competition isn't very good... IYSWIM?

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://www.webpageworkshop.co.uk - FREE Web tutorials and references
     
    Dylan Parry, Jun 28, 2004
    #14
  15. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Karl Groves Guest

    "Neal" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:53:50 -0400, Karl Groves <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > "Neal" <> wrote in message
    > > news:eek:...
    > >
    > >> But still, my point is that if someone is giving advice, even totally
    > >> sound advice, it's hard to believe the individual knows what they're
    > >> talking about if they themselves aren't doing it.

    > >
    > > Your first day in town, you're taken aback by how little this small town
    > > has
    > > to offer.
    > > For one thing, they only have two barbers! One guy has a shabby little
    > > shop
    > > that looks like an abandoned building. The place is messy, stinky, and
    > > the
    > > guy that runs it is a big slob with a bad haircut.
    > > Right across the street is his competition - a nice young man, with a
    > > beautiful shop, like-new equipment, and a great haircut.
    > > Which man do you go to for your haircut?

    >
    > The slob, of course, as he obviously gave the other barber his haircut!
    >
    > Surely its next to impossible to give yourself a decent haircut. Are you
    > suggesting that an accessibility expert cannot make one's own site
    > accessible?


    Not at all.
    What I'm saying is that while it'd be nice for the physicians to heal
    themselves first, it isn't an automatic disqualifier if they do not.
    The quality of work should stand out on its own. One of the problems that we
    face at the company I work for is that we're far too busy with work for our
    clients to really put forth an A+ effort on our own site.

    -Karl
     
    Karl Groves, Jun 28, 2004
    #15
  16. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Neal Guest

    On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:24:08 -0400, Karl Groves <>
    wrote:

    > The quality of work should stand out on its own.


    In the eyes of the layperson, should != will.
     
    Neal, Jun 28, 2004
    #16
  17. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Karl Groves Guest

    "Neal" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:24:08 -0400, Karl Groves <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > The quality of work should stand out on its own.

    >
    > In the eyes of the layperson, should != will.


    I hate to sound like Whitecrest, but the layperson doesn't know the
    difference.
    As my company's President is known to say "I compete against clueless
    vendors for business with equally clueless clients".
    If the layperson knew the difference, they'd be doing the work themselves.

    -Karl
     
    Karl Groves, Jun 28, 2004
    #17
  18. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Neal Guest

    On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:44:01 -0400, Karl Groves <>
    wrote:

    >
    > "Neal" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:...
    >> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:24:08 -0400, Karl Groves
    >> <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> > The quality of work should stand out on its own.

    >>
    >> In the eyes of the layperson, should != will.

    >
    > I hate to sound like Whitecrest, but the layperson doesn't know the
    > difference.
    > As my company's President is known to say "I compete against clueless
    > vendors for business with equally clueless clients".
    > If the layperson knew the difference, they'd be doing the work
    > themselves.


    Well, swinging this back around - suppose I go to a site looking for
    advice on good web design. I encounter a page with bad UI, ugly colors and
    the like. Am I likely to take their advice, no matter whether it happens
    to be good?

    Agreed, someone shopping for a web designer is going to look at the
    various sites they've done and pick someone who's done something they
    like. They aren't going to look under the hood. But even then, they are
    looking for something.

    Certainly, whatever you're hawking on your site, you should be employing
    any aspect of it on your site which is relevant to your site. Clearly any
    site which looks to the layperson like it's breaking its own rules, not
    showing itself off to their greatest potential, is not going to be as
    successful as it could be.

    Some of your customers will know what they are doing, and to ignore their
    business is akin to ignoring the blind because how many of them are
    actually going to be looking atyour content anyway?
     
    Neal, Jun 28, 2004
    #18
  19. Luigi Donatello Asero

    Karl Groves Guest

    "Neal" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:...
    > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:44:01 -0400, Karl Groves <>
    > wrote:
    > Well, swinging this back around - suppose I go to a site looking for
    > advice on good web design. I encounter a page with bad UI, ugly colors and
    > the like. Am I likely to take their advice, no matter whether it happens
    > to be good?


    Now you're talking about aesthetics. The impact of good vs. bad visual
    appeal cannot be overstated.
    In the "real" world, almost nothing else matters. Impressions are
    everything.
    But this original discussion began about accessibility, and the inaccessible
    nature of some sites for companies that sell accessibility.

    Users don't notice when something is "good", because they expect it to be.
    They only notice when it is bad. The only people who will notice an
    inaccessible site are those who either need it or who know enough about
    accessibility to tell. My claim is that if they knew about accessibility,
    they'd be doing it themselves

    -Karl
     
    Karl Groves, Jun 28, 2004
    #19
  20. Luigi Donatello Asero

    rf Guest

    "Karl Groves" <> wrote in message
    news:cbpif0$ati$...
    >
    > "Neal" <> wrote in message
    > news:eek:...
    >
    > Your first day in town, you're taken aback by how little this small town

    has
    > to offer.
    > For one thing, they only have two barbers! One guy has a shabby little

    shop
    > that looks like an abandoned building. The place is messy, stinky, and the
    > guy that runs it is a big slob with a bad haircut.
    > Right across the street is his competition - a nice young man, with a
    > beautiful shop, like-new equipment, and a great haircut.
    > Which man do you go to for your haircut?


    The first one, of course. Who cuts the *other* barbers hair?

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Jun 29, 2004
    #20
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