extra comma

A

aarklon

Hi all,

why does C language permits an extra comma in initializer list

ex:- int days[] = {
31,28.31,30,31,30,
31,31,30,31,30,31,
}
i have heard it is for the purpose of automatic code generation
is there any other purpose than this, if so why ...????
 
R

Richard Heathfield

(e-mail address removed) said:
Hi all,

why does C language permits an extra comma in initializer list

ex:- int days[] = {
31,28.31,30,31,30,

Between 31 and 28 you meant ,, not ..
31,31,30,31,30,31,
}
i have heard it is for the purpose of automatic code generation

That's supposed to be the reasoning behind such lamenesses, yes. But
observe:

i = 0;
printf(" %d", day);
while(i++ < 12)
{
printf(", %d%s", day, (i % 6) == 5 ? "\n" : "");
}

So, as you can see, it isn't actually difficult to generate the code
without the trailing comma.
is there any other purpose than this, if so why ...????

No, it's just catering for the lazy.
 
V

vippstar

(e-mail address removed) said:
why does C language permits an extra comma in initializer list
ex:- int days[] = {
31,28.31,30,31,30,

Between 31 and 28 you meant ,, not ..
How do you know? 28.31 is a valid value for initializing in integer
context.
31,31,30,31,30,31,
}
i have heard it is for the purpose of automatic code generation

That's supposed to be the reasoning behind such lamenesses, yes. But
observe:

i = 0;
printf(" %d", day);
while(i++ < 12)
{
printf(", %d%s", day, (i % 6) == 5 ? "\n" : "");

}

So, as you can see, it isn't actually difficult to generate the code
without the trailing comma.

Modulus or even the conditional check could be expensive somewhere I
guess.
Notice it's not only allowed in an "initializer list" but anywhere
where {elements} is used. (I don't know the proper term for it)
For example, printf("%zu\n", sizeof (char[]){1,2,3,});
 
M

Martin

why does C language permits an extra comma in initializer list
...
 i have heard it is for the purpose of automatic code generation
is there any other purpose than this, if so why ...????

According to K&R2 (p196) it is "a nicety for neat formatting."
 
R

Richard Heathfield

(e-mail address removed) said:
(e-mail address removed) said:
why does C language permits an extra comma in initializer list
ex:- int days[] = {
31,28.31,30,31,30,

Between 31 and 28 you meant ,, not ..
How do you know?

Call me psychic if you like.
28.31 is a valid value for initializing in integer
context.

Yes, but on this occasion it was not what was intended.

Modulus or even the conditional check could be expensive somewhere I
guess.

My % could have been avoided if necessary, but in any case it was to deal
with the newline, not the comma.
 
B

Ben Pfaff

Richard Heathfield said:
(e-mail address removed) said:
why does C language permits an extra comma in initializer list
i have heard it is for the purpose of automatic code generation

That's supposed to be the reasoning behind such lamenesses, yes. But
observe:

i = 0;
printf(" %d", day);
while(i++ < 12)
{
printf(", %d%s", day, (i % 6) == 5 ? "\n" : "");
}


Observe:

int array[] = {
#ifdef ELEMENT_ONE
1,
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_TWO
2,
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_THREE
3,
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_FOUR
4,
#endif
};

versus:

int array[] = {
#ifdef ELEMENT_ONE
1
# if (defined(ELEMENT_TWO) || defined(ELEMENT_THREE) \
|| defined(ELEMENT_FOUR))
,
# endif
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_TWO
2,
# if defined(ELEMENT_THREE) || defined(ELEMENT_FOUR)
,
# endif
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_THREE
3
# if defined(ELEMENT_FOUR)
,
# endif
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_FOUR
4,
#endif
};

I know which one I would prefer to maintain.
 
B

Ben Pfaff

Richard Heathfield said:
Ben Pfaff said:




Surely the whole point of generating the code automatically is that you
don't have to maintain it?

The code that you snipped was not an example of automatically
generated code.
 
R

rzed

(e-mail address removed) said:
Hi all,

why does C language permits an extra comma in initializer list

ex:- int days[] = {
31,28.31,30,31,30,

Between 31 and 28 you meant ,, not ..
31,31,30,31,30,31,
}
i have heard it is for the purpose of automatic code
generation

That's supposed to be the reasoning behind such lamenesses, yes.
But observe:

i = 0;
printf(" %d", day);
while(i++ < 12)
{
printf(", %d%s", day, (i % 6) == 5 ? "\n" : "");
}

So, as you can see, it isn't actually difficult to generate the
code without the trailing comma.
is there any other purpose than this, if so why ...????

No, it's just catering for the lazy.


And what's wrong with that? A compiler is just catering to those
too lazy to code machine language directly.

One benefit of allowing the extra comma (albeit for the lazy) is
that it allows you to manually reorder lists of items in an editor
without having to go back and add a comma here and take it away
there.

I don't see the harm in allowing the trailing comma, and there is
at least some productivity benefit.
 
B

Ben Pfaff

Richard Heathfield said:
Ben Pfaff said:


Oh. I see.

<bright smile, a la Dory from "Finding Nemo">

Well then - perhaps you ought to automate it! :)

Fortunately, I have no need to do so, because trailing commas are
allowed in initializer lists (and elsewhere).
 
R

Richard Heathfield

Ben Pfaff said:
The code that you snipped was not an example of automatically
generated code.

Oh. I see.

<bright smile, a la Dory from "Finding Nemo">

Well then - perhaps you ought to automate it! :)
 
R

Richard Heathfield

rzed said:

And what's wrong with that? A compiler is just catering to those
too lazy to code machine language directly.

Right. And keyboards are lame, too - we should be using plugboards.
One benefit of allowing the extra comma (albeit for the lazy) is
that it allows you to manually reorder lists of items in an editor
without having to go back and add a comma here and take it away
there.

True enough. In fact, that's catering for the good kind of lazy (yes, there
are at least two kinds). Of course, manually reordering lists is easy
enough even if you don't like the trailing comma. Reorder, remove last
comma, recompile, and the editor will tell you where to insert the comma.
:)
I don't see the harm in allowing the trailing comma, and there is
at least some productivity benefit.

I certainly wouldn't want to see the feature /removed/ from the language.
Had I been consulted as to its original addition, I'd probably have argued
against it, but hey - it's there, it works, it does no particular harm, so
no big deal. (Of course, removing it from the Standard would do no harm
either, since the standardisation process is effectively dead in the water
now.)
 
R

Richard Heathfield

Ben Pfaff said:
Fortunately, I have no need to do so, because trailing commas are
allowed in initializer lists (and elsewhere).

Um, I only suggested that because it really, really, really looked like a
good candidate for automation. Very repetitive, easy for people to screw
up during maintenance... it's a natural.
 
B

Ben Pfaff

Richard Heathfield said:
Ben Pfaff said:


Um, I only suggested that because it really, really, really looked like a
good candidate for automation. Very repetitive, easy for people to screw
up during maintenance... it's a natural.

Hmm. I appreciate the thought, but I haven't noticed that
similar lists have been a problem in practice in the projects
that I'm involved in, as long as they don't grow absurdly large.
If they do grow too large, then automation is certainly a
reasonable option.
 
K

Keith Thompson

Richard Heathfield said:
Ben Pfaff said:



Surely the whole point of generating the code automatically is that you
don't have to maintain it?

I think Ben's point (not that I'd presume to speak for him) is that
the trailing-comma rule can make it easier to maintain the code that
generates the code.

If you want to generate an initializer list and you already have all
the information in an array, then the trailing-comma rule doesn't help
much; it's easy enough to know when you're about to write the last
element and drop the comma. It's *slightly* more convenient to be
able to generate a comma after every item, but not enough to be worth
marring the language.

But if you don't know whether the current item is the last one until
after you've written it (say, you're reading input from a file), then
being able to write the trailing comma after every item can be more
significantly convenient.

It's still not impossible to avoid the trailing comma (if nothing
else, you can build an array or list internally and write the whole
initializer only when it's complete), and I still have mixed feelings
about whether the rule is worthwhile, but it's not completely useless.

An interesting (I think) point is that I've never heard anyone
complain that semicolons are used as terminators rather than as
separators, as they are in Pascal. The fact that we can (and must)
write:
{
statement1;
statement2;
}
rather than
{
statement1;
statement2
}
makes programs easier to maintain when we want to add a third
statement. But the idea that a comma should be a terminator rather
than a separator seems somehow unnatural -- even though they're both
separators in written English.

To summarize:

{ statement1; statement2; } /* good */
{ statement1; statement2 } /* bad */
{ initializer1, initializer2, } /* bad */
{ initializer1, initializer2 } /* good */
 
T

Thad Smith

Ben said:
Richard Heathfield said:
(e-mail address removed) said:
why does C language permits an extra comma in initializer list
i have heard it is for the purpose of automatic code generation
That's supposed to be the reasoning behind such lamenesses, yes. But
observe:

i = 0;
printf(" %d", day);
while(i++ < 12)
{
printf(", %d%s", day, (i % 6) == 5 ? "\n" : "");
}


Observe:

int array[] = {
#ifdef ELEMENT_ONE
1,
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_TWO
2,
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_THREE
3,
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_FOUR
4,
#endif
};

versus:

int array[] = {
#ifdef ELEMENT_ONE
1
# if (defined(ELEMENT_TWO) || defined(ELEMENT_THREE) \
|| defined(ELEMENT_FOUR))
,
# endif
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_TWO
2,
# if defined(ELEMENT_THREE) || defined(ELEMENT_FOUR)
,
# endif
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_THREE
3
# if defined(ELEMENT_FOUR)
,
# endif
#endif
#ifdef ELEMENT_FOUR
4,
#endif
};


Ben meant to omit the comma following "4", of course. Perhaps the mistake
helps illustrate his point.

Richard said:
> Ben Pfaff said:
>
> Surely the whole point of generating the code automatically is that you
> don't have to maintain it?

Ben's example was for code that is manually written and maintained, not
automatically generated. I think his point has merit.
 
M

Malcolm McLean

Keith Thompson said:
An interesting (I think) point is that I've never heard anyone
complain that semicolons are used as terminators rather than as
separators, as they are in Pascal. The fact that we can (and must)
write:
{
statement1;
statement2;
}
rather than
{
statement1;
statement2
}
makes programs easier to maintain when we want to add a third
statement. But the idea that a comma should be a terminator rather
than a separator seems somehow unnatural -- even though they're both
separators in written English.
Most people don't know the rules for semicolons in written English. The
semi-colon can be used to introduce a list, or to separate two parts of a
sentence which are themselves valid sentences (periods).
 
B

Ben Pfaff

Malcolm McLean said:
Most people don't know the rules for semicolons in written
English. The semi-colon can be used to introduce a list, or to
separate two parts of a sentence which are themselves valid sentences
(periods).

Ordinarily, a colon, not a semicolon, would be used in English to
introduce a list.
 
M

Mark McIntyre

Richard said:
good candidate for automation. Very repetitive, easy for people to screw
up during maintenance...

Not in my experience, no. Perhaps you just worked with lower grade
maintenance droids?
gd&r.
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

No members online now.

Forum statistics

Threads
473,768
Messages
2,569,574
Members
45,048
Latest member
verona

Latest Threads

Top