FAQ Topic - How do I prompt a "Save As" dialog for an accepted mime type?

L

-Lost

Randy said:
-Lost said the following on 5/12/2007 7:47 PM:

Why would I beat you for your opinion? I happen to think *all* browsers
are "garbage". Try viewing how much memory Opera and Firefox consume on
a PC.

Well, I knew you were particularly knowledgeable in the Internet
Explorer/WSH/CScript area. So I thought it wise not to say something I
could not rightly justify.

And oh yeah, I *totally* feel you on the memory thing. Opera loads like
its dying; Firefox (even with Firefox Preloader) loads after a few seconds.

To be honest... I load Opera long enough to view a JavaScript or CSS
example and then I kill it.

I remember when my Firefox install was totally fresh and clean (and
every time I test new plug ins in a clean profile), it loaded and ran
like lightning. Add a few extensions and that goes out the window.

I must say, that is the primary thing I miss most about Internet
Explorer and Outlook Express. They load damn fast and always have.
 
A

ASM

-Lost a écrit :
I don't even have Excel on this machine and it works just fine
(OpenOffice.org).

Great !
On a Mac ? Version ?
Did you launch Oo.o before ?

On my Mac (MDD/1.25Mhz) this appli needs a very long time to open
(think it works with X11)
and I don't know how to get it "by default".
 
A

ASM

Randy Webb a écrit :
I happen to think *all* browsers are "garbage".
Try viewing how much memory Opera and Firefox consume on a PC.

Personally I hate Windows (and he hates me too !).

On my Mac FF love to use all CPU, specially when some JS is called.
About memory ... seems a space is attributed and FF does with that.
 
A

ASM

-Lost a écrit :
I must say, that is the primary thing I miss most about Internet
Explorer and Outlook Express. They load damn fast and always have.

We can do a parallel with Mac OS X : Safari and Mail load quickly
during FF as Th takes their time to appear.

The first are built to really work with the system, the others are made
by a crowd of independent programmers and to run everywhere, I suppose
they can meet some difficulties.

About IE I've heard of memory lacks ... no ?
 
A

ASM

Randy Webb a écrit :
ASM said the following on 5/13/2007 5:25 AM:

That is precisely the difference. With one small difference. IE isn't
built to work "with the system", it is part of the system (OS).

Yeap, one more reason for me to hate Windows.
Yes, IE has memory leaks when it comes to closures. I assume lacks was a
typo?

Oui :)
 
L

-Lost

ASM said:
-Lost a écrit :

Great !
On a Mac ? Version ?

No sir. I barely use my iMac anymore. I use it mainly to stay somewhat
familiarized with FreeBSD.
Did you launch Oo.o before ?

But no, I did not open it first. I saved it as "default.xls" in Opera
and "random garbage.xls" in Firefox.

Then opened it with Oo_O.

If you would like me to check on my very, VERY old iMac, I will though.
 
L

-Lost

Randy said:
-Lost said the following on 5/12/2007 11:33 PM:

Whether it is IE, Firefox, Opera or any other browser, it is typically
the unjustified "I Hate browserX" that gets me going. It is also
typically the "I hate M$" and the likes where the main reason people say
it is to be "part of the crowd" or "to be cool" that gets me. If people
don't like a browser, and have a reason, then so be it. I have a list as
long as my arm of problems with IE. The list is about the same length
with FF though.


I don't use the Preloader as I don't care to have it half loaded (or
more) every time I boot the PC if I have no plans to use it. It is a
trade off in load time I choose to suffer with :)


Load FF clean, then open IE and FF and view the Task Manager on them
both. There is a reason why FF uses more memory in that view and it can
never be made to operate as low as IE. And it is simply because IE is
part of the OS and uses other components whereas FF has to be stand
alone. IE has its own built in preloader - the OS.

Dear God. That was ridiculous!

Internet Explorer 6: 13.5 Megabytes of Physical Memory.
Firefox 1.5.0.11: 189.5 Megabytes of Physical Memory.
Opera 9.10 build 8679: 16.7 Megabytes of Physical Memory.

Opera surprised the hell out of me!

I did actually know that Internet Explorer was integrated into the
Operating System. I believe I learned this in my Visual Basic days.
Come to think of it, I still have Visual Basic 6 Enterprise installed.

I haven't VB'd in aaaaaages.
Sidenote: If anybody wants to prove me wrong about IE, they are welcome
to explain to me how to uninstall IE on Windows, have Windows continue
to work, without re-installing IE :)

Um... I can remove Internet Explorer safely. As long as you allow that
to mean revert to an older version. ;)

Seriously though, it can't be done. (Which you already knew. ;))
 
V

VK

Whether it is IE, Firefox, Opera or any other browser, it is typically
the unjustified "I Hate browserX" that gets me going. It is also
typically the "I hate M$" and the likes where the main reason people say
it is to be "part of the crowd" or "to be cool" that gets me. If people
don't like a browser, and have a reason, then so be it. I have a list as
long as my arm of problems with IE. The list is about the same length
with FF though.

"I hate Micro$oft IE" gave raise to Firefox and it also preserved
Opera on the bare minimum existence level in the after Browser Wars
era. With fully practical approach we would have Windows XP / M
Office / IE 7 right now and nothing else at all - with minor updates
released by Microsoft once in 6-8 years. All OS, office packages and
browsers have their defaults, so what the point then to fight for
alternative failures? ;-)

A bit of semi-unexplainable "hate" is crucial for innovations. In
marketing it is called more nicely though: "a brand wearing" . Even if
the old stuff is still pretty good, people want an update - any update
- a few years later. I do fully agree that Microsoft is not a
"residence evil" of any kind. People just don't like reach winners;
also defeating or at least insulting someone big and strong makes you
feel big and strong yourself. From the other side if the Battle of the
4th versions would go other way, we might be discussing right now the
"ugliness of Net$cape solutions and Microsoft fight for
standards". :)
I don't use the Preloader as I don't care to have it half loaded (or
more) every time I boot the PC if I have no plans to use it. It is a
trade off in load time I choose to suffer with :)


Load FF clean, then open IE and FF and view the Task Manager on them
both. There is a reason why FF uses more memory in that view and it can
never be made to operate as low as IE. And it is simply because IE is
part of the OS and uses other components whereas FF has to be stand
alone. IE has its own built in preloader - the OS.

Sidenote: If anybody wants to prove me wrong about IE, they are welcome
to explain to me how to uninstall IE on Windows, have Windows continue
to work, without re-installing IE :)

There is a number of "IE removal" programs. The main pitfall is that
the Microsoft site is specially crafted for IE. The biggest catch is
that Windows Update pages are working with IE _only_ Any other browser
- even with User-Agent string spooffed - gets banned. This is the
primary problem to resolve by alternative browser producers by any
mean: either by legal enforcement (preferable) or by plugin+spoofing
means (if the first fails).

P.S. For MacOS users there is Camino (www.caminobrowser.org) - this is
Gecko natively integrated with MacOS. This way their complains of slow
loading Firefox or Opera do not reach my heart; as well as any
complains on "my Safary doesn't work here or there". Sadomasochistic
intentions are too personal IMO to keep sharing it with the
public. :)

P.P.S. Having an awesome stay in Europe this year.
 
V

VK

"I hate Micro$oft IE"
If anything you said was worth replying to I would. But, as usual, it isn't.

You did reply though - otherwise what am I replying to? ;-)

P.S. As the person directly connected with the FAQ maintenance process
- I would expect more of care in working with quotes. The part you
have quoted is - in full -

"I hate Micro$oft IE" gave raise to Firefox and it also preserved
Opera on the bare minimum existence level in the after Browser Wars
era.
<snip>

The quotes around and the context imply that I am not stating my (like
" I ") personal opinion but using an old and rather known slogan
summarizing a set of trends touched in this thread.
From the "worthiness" point of view you might express - at least - our
personal opinion of the practice when the security and up-to-date
state of a fully paid OS is being set by OS producer into a strict
dependence of a particular browser installed on the said OS. You might
at least say like "it sucks" or "it is OS producer's holly right" or
anything. In front of the approaching fight Episode Three each opinion
- especially yours - is worthy.
 
V

VK

I could have snipped everything you wrote and simply put:

<snipped what VK rambled>

And it would have had the same effect for me.

Yeah... Nothing new under these skies.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/msg/32fa73a854d310fa
Why MS decided to make the Windows Updates IE specific is anybody's
guess - short of a declaration from MS - but an educated guess would be
simple. The Update verifies that you are running an authenticate version
of Windows and not a pirated version. To do that it uses an ActiveX
component that is IE specific. So, in order to accomplish the
authentication then it had to be made to be IE specific. Besides, if you
ran a software company would you endeavor to ensure that your update
procedure to update your own software would be compatible with someone
elses software? I think not.

Windows Update doesn't operate with JScript neither it depends on some
particular IE HTML/DOM/JScript features. It is a C++ program with full
system access. IE is used only to trig the execution of this program
over ActiveX mechanics. It is by - all means - an equivalent of
InstantShield Update Manager. The only difference is that the ability
to launch this manager is artificially attached to the presence of a
particular browser.

IMO the impact of this marketing cheat code is still severely under-
counted. It is very simple to make say Firefox your default browser
during the installation. But on the first attempt to visit Windows
Update one will get the message that could be translated from the
corporate to the conventional English as "get off whatever crap you
dared to install, sucka, and use what you've been told to use". For
non-Windows users here is the exact screenshot:
http://www.geocities.com/schools_ring/tmp/wu.gif

Given the amount of Windows Update links filling different Windows and
Windows applications menu the desired effect will be reached very
soon:
1) User will realize that she needs IE shortcut handy around
2) She will get an impression that her Windows became semi-brocken /
malfunctioning after having installed any other browser than IE
3) IE will be brought back as the default browser.

Simple, nasty, effective - Microsoft marketing managers always were
among the best money can buy.
 
V

VK

Try testing it with JScript disabled and you will soon discover that
JScript enabled is *mandatory* for a manual update session (never tested
it with Auto Updates though).

Right, Windows Update page requires JScript enabled atop of
everything. I meant to say that the Windows Update functionality
doesn't depend on some particular Javascript / DOM / HTML capability
that would be missing and not replaceable in other UAs. There is no
ActiveX to launch system applications - but there are other ways do to
it. It is still the main question why anyone would need to visit an
HTML page just to launch an application from your own hard drive?
Windows validation and updates check is being made by that
application, not by some code on the said HTML page.
That pictures shows how to Update Windows without using a browser so it
only blows a hole in the theory that MS is trying to force IE down your
throat when you can update Windows without using IE.

You forget a small but nasty fact that Auto Update will check for only
high priority system updates. For instance right now my Auto Update is
all green and happy. But visiting the update page shows a number of
categories for my system which I will be missing without IE:
http://www.geocities.com/schools_ring/tmp/wu2.gif
The list is not as impressive as I possibly wanted because I have
already installed the majority of proposed updates - but you've got
the catch I guess.

Also "Windows Update", "Check for updates" and similar provided in
many if not all of Microsoft products. It is very natural for users to
click something like
http://www.geocities.com/schools_ring/tmp/wu3.gif
so to get the infamous
http://www.geocities.com/schools_ring/tmp/wu.gif
and I remain on my opinion from the first post in this branch of the
thread.
 
L

-Lost

Randy said:
Until today, doing an experiment, I might have agreed with you. The
reason I don't? I just did a Windows Update, manually, using Firefox2.0
and it went off without a hitch. Not a one. It simply asked me if I
wanted to download the files, I said yes, then it let me install them.

By which URL did you get to the manual updates?

I remember I used to use:

http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.com/catalog/en/default.asp

Which now leads me back to the, "Sorry, you must use Internet Explorer"
page. OK, so I click http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=10678 to go
to the "use another browser, visit here" link.

That leads to the *entire* Microsoft Download Center. So anyway, I got
a wee bit overwhelmed/-Lost. ;)

Thanks.
 
V

VK

By which URL did you get to the manual updates?

That auto-forwards you to
http://www.update.microsoft.com/windowsupdate/v6/thanks.aspx?ln=en&&thankspage=5
which is all the same screen as
http://www.geocities.com/schools_ring/tmp/wu.gif

As I said, one cannot use any other browser but IE for Windows Update.

Just in case my system is:
Windows XP SP2
Firefox 2.0.3
User-Agent string left default as:
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.3) Gecko/
20070309 Firefox/2.0.0.3
 
V

VK

It may auto-forward you but it did not auto forward me.

Your Windows version and Firefox version please? Also the chosen mode
for Auto Update in the Control Panel? Given that the auto-forward is
made sever side and secured by client-side scripting, either you are
wrong in your observations or you've found by occasion some way to use
Firefox for Windows Update.
Just let me know what kind of screenshot you want of Firefox.

The one like at http://www.geocities.com/schools_ring/tmp/wu2.gif but
for Firefox.
 
L

-Lost

Randy said:

I was not totally sure if I should respond below you and VK, so I will
post the length of my post here.

1. In Firefox 1.5.0.11, Windows XP SP2, using the above link takes me
to the wu4.gif (your screen shot Randy). However, it says I have to add
a site to my trusted blah blah. So, I allowed JavaScript... *this* then
forwards me to the URL
http://www.update.microsoft.com/windowsupdate/v6/thanks.aspx?ln=en&&thankspage=5

2. I tried turning Windows Update to Auto and trying again. Aside from
locking Firefox up a few times, nothing changed. I can see the Catalog
at first, but get a message that I need to add microsoft to trusted
zones. If I allow JavaScript anywhere, I get "need Internet Explorer."

Any other relevant information I should include?
 
L

-Lost

VK said:
That auto-forwards you to
http://www.update.microsoft.com/windowsupdate/v6/thanks.aspx?ln=en&&thankspage=5
which is all the same screen as
http://www.geocities.com/schools_ring/tmp/wu.gif

As I said, one cannot use any other browser but IE for Windows Update.

Granted, I cannot seem to get it to work with a standalone version of
Firefox, but the phenomenon remains intact nonetheless. In fact, a
simple Google search shows us that it is possible to update Windows
without ActiveX and without bothering with the actual Windows Update
service as well.

So, yes, it is possible to update with browsers other than Internet
Explorer.

Offhand, I know of only one way to update Windows without technically
needing to go to Windows Update. I believe the process still requires
Windows Update intrinsically though.
 
L

-Lost

Randy said:
VK said the following on 5/20/2007 2:32 PM:

It took me awhile to figure it out. About half the night in fact. The
reason it works, for me, in Firefox is because I have an extension for
Firefox called IETab and within the Filter settings for it is has the MS
Update sites listed. When it encounters one of those sites it
automatically invokes the IETab. What the IETab does is allow you to
invoke the IE Engine while running Firefox. It's main use is to be able
to test in IE without having to open IE. So, while it is technically
"running in Firefox", it isn't using the Firefox engine.

Testing just now, when I disable the filters it goes the same route
everybody else gets which confirmed my beliefs.

I would guess it would also work in Netscape 8 since it also can use the
IE Engine.

Ah hah! I thought about it after I said I knew of only one method,
because actually I knew of several.

1. IETab
2. WindizUpdate
3. MBSA
4. Belarc

Also, you need 2 services running for it to work in Internet Explorer.

1. BITS
2. Automatic Updates (Suprising! Not...)
 
V

VK

It took me awhile to figure it out. About half the night in fact. The
reason it works, for me, in Firefox is because I have an extension for
Firefox called IETab and within the Filter settings for it is has the MS
Update sites listed. When it encounters one of those sites it
automatically invokes the IETab.

Good job, Mr.Webb! :) :-|

I was not aware of IETab addon. On the loading page it is introduced
in a semi-shamed foggy way as
"This is a great tool for web developers, since you can easily see
how your web page displayed in IE with just one click and then
switch back to Firefox."
( https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/1419 )

But by visiting the main addon page we can see that the author was
going in the same direction as in this thread:
"Believe it or not, we really ran Windows Update from Mozilla/
Firefox."
( http://ietab.mozdev.org/ )
We can also see that that was the original aim of the plugin from the
very beginning in 2005:
"Can you believe it? We really run Windows update from Firefox."
( http://web.archive.org/web/20051105060937/http://ietab.mozdev.org/ )

I like to see that I'm not the only one seeing the negative impact of
the current Microsoft's Windows Update cheat code. Still coming back
to my original posts
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/msg/e3bc192763d5a9e5
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/msg/70144a20bb67130f
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/msg/ec9a81af83ff4ca6

we should agree that the discussion went in a bit parallel direction.
I mean that I was questioning _first_ the situation withstanding as
such: and technical hacks and workarounds _after_ that if no other
means are available. As I said in
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/msg/e3bc192763d5a9e5
<q>This is the primary problem to resolve by alternative browser
producers
by any mean: either by legal enforcement (preferable) or by plugin
+spoofing
means (if the first fails).</q>

Obviously IETab-like solution is the second path. What bothers me is
that I don't see the first path ever touched by other producers. That
is wrong: first one has to try to adjust the environment for one's
needs and only if failed then adjust oneself for the environment. That
is the main difference between humans and animals after all :)
I believe the existing regulations in US and EU about OS producers who
are also UA producers provide enough of legal hooks to try at least.
Yet I'm not a business lawyer so I may be missing something.

If the Microsoft's trick with Windows Update is legally clean: then is
IETab-like workaround legally clean itself to suggest to include it
into the default distribution? Formally here it is a shell application
(Firefox) used to launch a 3rd party core application (IE) for further
use of the latter. Is it fine? Netscape browser with its dual Gecko/IE
mode exists for years without any Microsoft actions: but maybe
Microsoft just did not bother to react due to the minor status of this
browser; so gained benefits would not cover the efforts spent? In such
case the situation will change immediately for Gecko.

P.S. btw you guess about Netscape browser is correct. It comes with
Windows Update pages pre-programmed as requiring IE-mode, so on
visiting these pages Netscape automatically switches the mode from the
default Gecko to IE one. No extra setup is needed.
http://www.geocities.com/schools_ring/tmp/wu5.jpg
 
V

VK

In a public environment, yes. But, Windows Update is not a public
environment. It is a very specific task that MS, or anybody else, can
force you to use there product to update with.

Here you are wrong IMO. In case of
Windows Update - "get IE or get lost"
we have a legally defined (at least in the US) schema of OS producer
enforcing a particular middleware (browser) onto OS users by means of
limiting the functionality of the said OS if an alternate middleware
is used.


UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Civil Action No. 98-1232 (TPJ)
CONCLUSIONS OF LAW
....
As the foregoing discussion illustrates, Microsoft's campaign to
protect the applications barrier from erosion by network-centric
middleware can be broken down into discrete categories of activity,
several of which on their own independently satisfy the second element
of a § 2 monopoly maintenance claim. But only when the separate
categories of conduct are viewed, as they should be, as a single, well-
coordinated course of action does the full extent of the violence that
Microsoft has done to the competitive process reveal itself. See
Continental Ore Co. v. Union Carbide & Carbon Corp., 370 U.S. 690, 699
(1962) (counseling that in Sherman Act cases "plaintiffs should be
given the full benefit of their proof without tightly
compartmentalizing the various factual components and wiping the slate
clean after scrutiny of each"). In essence, Microsoft mounted a
deliberate assault upon entrepreneurial efforts that, left to rise or
fall on their own merits, could well have enabled the introduction of
competition into the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems.
Id.
While the evidence does not prove that they would have succeeded
absent Microsoft's actions, it does reveal that Microsoft placed an
oppressive thumb on the scale of competitive fortune, thereby
effectively guaranteeing its continued dominance in the relevant
market. More broadly, Microsoft's anticompetitive actions trammeled
the competitive process through which the computer software industry
generally stimulates innovation and conduces to the optimum benefit of
consumers.


UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
Civil Action No. 98-1232 (TPJ)
FINAL JUDGMENT
06 June, 2000

....

3.c.
Knowing Interference with Performance. Microsoft shall not take any
action that it knows will interfere with or degrade the performance of
any non-Microsoft Middleware when interoperating with any Windows
Operating System Product without notifying the supplier of such non-
Microsoft Middleware in writing that Microsoft intends to take such
action, Microsoft's reasons for taking the action, and any ways known
to Microsoft for the supplier to avoid or reduce interference with, or
the degrading of, the performance of the supplier's Middleware.

....

3.g. Restriction on Binding Middleware Products to Operating System
Products. Microsoft shall not, in any Operating System Product
distributed six or more months after the effective date of this Final
Judgment, Bind any Middleware Product to a Windows Operating System
unless:
i. Microsoft also offers an otherwise identical version of
that Operating System Product in which all means of End-User Access to
that Middleware Product can readily be removed (a) by OEMs as part of
standard OEM preinstallation kits and (b) by end users using add-
remove utilities readily accessible in the initial boot process and
from the Windows desktop; and
ii. when an OEM removes End-User Access to a Middleware
Product from any Personal Computer on which Windows is preinstalled,
the royalty paid by that OEM for that copy of Windows is reduced in an
amount not less than the product of the otherwise applicable royalty
and the ratio of the number of amount in bytes of binary code of (a)
the Middleware Product as distributed separately from a Windows
Operating System Product to (b) the applicable version of Windows.

....

7. Definitions
....
d. "Bind" means to include a product in an Operating System Product
in such a way that either an OEM or an end user cannot readily remove
or uninstall the product.
....
i. "Default Middleware" means Middleware configured to launch
automatically (that is, by "default") to provide particular
functionality when other Middleware has not been selected for this
purpose. For example, a default browser is Middleware configured to
launch automatically to display Web pages transmitted over the
Internet or an intranet that bear the .htm extension, when other
software has not been selected for this purpose.
....
q. "Middleware" means software that operates, directly or through
other software, between an Operating System and another type of
software (such as an application, a server Operating System, or a
database management system) by offering services via APIs or
Communications Interfaces to such other software, and could, if ported
to or interoperable with multiple Operating Systems, enable software
products written for that Middleware to be run on multiple Operating
System Products. Examples of Middleware within the meaning of this
Final Judgment include Internet browsers, e-mail client software,
multimedia viewing software, Office, and the Java Virtual Machine.
Examples of software that are not Middleware within the meaning of
this Final Judgment are disk compression and memory management.
....


And yes, I am well aware that the Civil Action No. 98-1232 was
contested by Microsoft, revised and put on hold in many of its parts.
So the current Microsoft position is if it was some temporary mind
blinding of judges or some plot led by some technically clueless hard-
coded democrats and commies :) In fact AFAICT Microsoft was just left
on probation, like a guy first time caught driving without license.
But, answer this. Do you think Mozilla should be sued to force them to
allow people to update Mozilla Thunderbird from within Microsoft
Outlook? The principle is the same.

You are making it sound as if I'm staying _for_ Firefox and Mozilla
Foundation against Microsoft. It is not true. What about say Opera?
What about other UAs - lesser known but still existing? For it even
IETab workaround doesn't work, as it is Gecko-specific plugin. Also
despite IETab remains the main reserve option, it still sucks. Such a
great way to "not using IE": by running it in chrome mode and by
inserting it output area into Firefox interface :) :-(
 

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