FAQ Topic - Internationalisation and Multinationalisation in javascript. (2010-03-23)

D

Dr J R Stockton

In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]
september.org>, Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:49:58, Garrett Smith
Where is the term "multinationalization" defined, so that a comparison
can be made?

Multinational is widely defined, and -isation is a sufficiently well-
known ending. That is how the English language works.
 
D

Dr J R Stockton

In comp.lang.javascript message <b0bc9f7b-e681-4090-9c64-df736c1e8722@z6
g2000yqz.googlegroups.com>, Sun, 18 Apr 2010 04:57:19, VK
P.S. Again, if we are using English for FAQ, let's us use it properly.
The proper nouns in English always start with a capital letter: so not
"javascript" but "Javascript" please.

'"JavaScript" is a trademark of Sun Microsystems.' : Wikipedia.

Since there are two clear grammatical errors in your quoted "P.S.", and
one at-best-peculiar usage, I don't think that your views on English
usage need be taken seriously. Perhaps you are trying to pass yourself
off as an American.
 
J

John G Harris

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 at 09:45:39, in comp.lang.javascript, VK wrote:


Another example is 'oxygen'. It is a name that seldom starts with a
capital letter. Like 'javascript' it is a generic name used when you
don't care which of the atoms named Pete, Bill, Mary, Strgxf, etc, etc
you are referring to.

An argument pro|contra in relation to "Javascript" term or a
comparison of me with him? Did not get that one.

Look him up in Wikipedia and your ignorance will be reduced. The point
is that he often wrote his name in all lower case. That is what made him
famous. Therefore your assertion that proper nouns *always* start with a
capital letter is false.

John
 
G

Garrett Smith

[snip definitions]
This way the FAQ topic is to be renamed to "Internationalization and
localization in Javascript"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization

Without a clear definition of "multinationalisation," its hard to
justify keeping it instead of the more commonly understood
"internationalisation".

I kept British spelling to be consistent with the rest of the document,
though it probably doesn't matter much either way.
Respectively the current FAQ question has to be significantly changed
with all "multinationalization" stuff made of the top of one's head
removed. The topics to remain and to be clarified:
1. Locale-dependent string comparison and sorting
2. Locale-dependent date and time display
3. Possibly a good library reference with Java-like Calendar
functionality:
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/Calendar.html

If you want to propose those, elaborate on one of them. Y0ou might want
to dothis in a new thread.

[...]
 
V

VK

On Sun, 18 Apr 2010 at 09:45:39, in comp.lang.javascript, VK wrote:



Another example is 'oxygen'. It is a name that seldom starts with a
capital letter. Like 'javascript' it is a generic name used when you
don't care which of the atoms named Pete, Bill, Mary, Strgxf, etc, etc
you are referring to.



Look him up in Wikipedia and your ignorance will be reduced. The point
is that he often wrote his name in all lower case. That is what made him
famous. Therefore your assertion that proper nouns *always* start with a
capital letter is false.

OK, let's put it then in more straightforward way: "Krispy Kreme" is
called so because the company decided to call itself so. "ee cummings"
is because Mr. Cummings decided to call himself so. "JavaScript" is
because Netscape Corp. decided to call it so. "javascript" is called
so because a group of individuals, having no relation to the language
creation and holding no right on it decided to call it so and decided
to enforce this name usage on other people. Something doesn't add up
here...

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/about
Netscape Communications Corp.'s JavaScript language.

The fact that Netscape Communications Corp. doesn't exist anymore
means nothing because it doesn't deny the fact that it is about
JavaScript language developed by Netscape Communications Corp.

Nobody ever protested against of it until very recently and I even can
tell why the situation changed: Thomas Lahn eventually run out of his
beloved troll attack on <script language="JavaScript"> as everyone
moved on that silly type="text/javascript" attribute (silly both from
historical and technical point of view - but what happened is
happened). So he needed an emergency replacement for trolling and he
found a real Klondike in "ECMAScript" to shout on every 2nd post
"there is not such language idiot!!!" etc.

Well, I am living by the Usenet newsgroup description, rationale and
charter - and I don't give a damn if anyone or anything - including
FAQ which is an optional NG resource - contradicts them. Same attitude
is highly suggested to everyone.

P.S. comp.lang.ecmascript is still available to start the registration
process. So I don't see any problem here - registering, packing
things, out!
 
V

VK

Without a clear definition of "multinationalisation," its hard to
justify keeping it instead of the more commonly understood
"internationalisation".

"multinationalisation" - "internationalisation" are not the
conflicting terms,
"multinationalisation" - "localisation" are, thus:

"Internationalisation and localisation in JavaScript"
like for
C++ http://www.i18nguy.com/
Ruby http://ri18n.berlios.de/
PHP http://onlamp.com/pub/a/php/2002/11/28/php_i18n.html
etc.
clj doesn't need to express everything in some peculiar clj'ed way :)

btw the PHP article is called "Internationalization and Localization
with PHP", so "with" not "in", which is IMHO a much better wording. It
is not about JavaScript itself being "internationalised" or
"localised". It is about native and added JavaScript tools to provide
a localised output or to handle input in a localised way.
I kept British spelling to be consistent with the rest of the document,
though it probably doesn't matter much either way.

It is hugely matter for Dr. Stockton I guess :) From the historical
fairness point of view the first FAQ and all descendants were written
using the US spelling rules. Also CSS and DOM terms use the US
spelling rules ("behavior" - not "behaviour", "centre" - not "center",
"color" - not "colour"). "To change the colour use elm.style.color"...
Whatever though.
If you want to propose those, elaborate on one of them. Y0ou might want
to dothis in a new thread.

I may do it and post a test page for volunteers' testing as obviously
I am not having all possible locales available.
 
V

VK

Perhaps you are trying to pass yourself off as an American.

I am an American but English is not my native language. Did I ever
over past years tried to hide it or claimed otherwise?
Multinational is widely defined, and -isation is a sufficiently well-
known ending.   That is how the English language works.

Noop, it doesn't work this way, Dr.Stockton. Neither any other
language for that matter. One doesn't make up a new word saying "and
now shall it be called by everyone this way and not that way because I
want it to be so".

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=multinationalization
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=multinationalisation

Any anyhow *programming* related usage to support you claims?

Also please note that both "international" and "internationalization"
are presented in prominent dictionaries. This is how the English
language works.

After all I know you to be Date/Time acclaimed super-specialist: but
never heard you claiming - nor I remember seeing you by actions - as a
philology specialist. Shall we not touch lesser known domains (applies
to both of us)?
 
G

Garrett Smith

VK said:
"multinationalisation" - "internationalisation" are not the
conflicting terms,
"multinationalisation" - "localisation" are, thus:

"Internationalisation and localisation in JavaScript"
like for
C++ http://www.i18nguy.com/
Ruby http://ri18n.berlios.de/
PHP http://onlamp.com/pub/a/php/2002/11/28/php_i18n.html
etc.
clj doesn't need to express everything in some peculiar clj'ed way :)

btw the PHP article is called "Internationalization and Localization
with PHP", so "with" not "in", which is IMHO a much better wording. It
is not about JavaScript itself being "internationalised" or
"localised". It is about native and added JavaScript tools to provide
a localised output or to handle input in a localised way.

The PHP article is about strategies for i18n and l10n, so "with" is
appropriate because the article explains how one would go about
localizing content with PHP.

For the c.l.js entry, the focus is on the language itself. Changing "in
javascript" to "with javascript" changes the statement to a question of
"how do I...".

The second question is not answered by the entry's answer. It is
somewhat answered by: "How do I get a jsp/php variable into client-side
javascript?"

I see some gibberish. That entry needs a rewrite. Proposed:

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| "How do I get a jsp/php variable into client-side javascript?"
| Use the server-side language to generate the javascript:
|
| // JSP
| var jsvar = "${ jspVar }";
| // PHP
| var jsvar = "<?php echo $phpVar ?>";
|
| If an inline-script tag is used, the string must not contain any
| markup-significant characters such as <, >, &, ', or ". Such
| characters must be converted to HTML entities on the server.
|
| * http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/entities.html
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Changes:
* Rewritten gibberish in concluding paragraph.

For the FAQ entry of this subject (i18n and l10n), the proposed text:

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Internationalisation means using one form which is everywhere both
| acceptable and understood. Any international standard not supported by
| default can be coded for.
|
| For example, there is an International Standard for numeric Gregorian
| date format; but none for decimal and thousands separators.
|
| Localisation means using different forms for different readers. It
| cannot work well in general, because it requires a knowledge of all
| preferences and the ability to choose the right one, in an environment
| where many systems are inappropriately set anyway.
|
| ECMAScript has a few localization features. The various
| toString()methods are all implementation dependent, but tend to use
| either UK or US settings (not necessarily correctly). ECMAScript Ed. 3
| introduced some capabilities, including the toLocaleString()method
| which should create a string based on the host's locale.
`-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Changes:
* changed the term "Multinationalisation" to "localisation".
* Changed "Javascript" to ECMAScript in third paragraph.
* removed the last paragraph of "in the future of ECMAScript" (it seemed
pointlessly speculative).

It is hugely matter for Dr. Stockton I guess :) From the historical
fairness point of view the first FAQ and all descendants were written
using the US spelling rules. Also CSS and DOM terms use the US
spelling rules ("behavior" - not "behaviour", "centre" - not "center",
"color" - not "colour"). "To change the colour use elm.style.color"...
Whatever though.

There was actually a w3c proposal to change that...
here:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0475.html>

[...]
 
G

Garrett Smith

Garrett said:
VK said:
On Apr 19, 9:07 pm, Garrett Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]

I see some gibberish. That entry needs a rewrite. Proposed: [...]

Changes:
* Rewritten gibberish in concluding paragraph.
* Added a link to: said:
For the FAQ entry of this subject (i18n and l10n), the proposed text:

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Internationalisation means using one form which is everywhere both
| acceptable and understood. Any international standard not supported by
| default can be coded for.
|
| For example, there is an International Standard for numeric Gregorian
| date format; but none for decimal and thousands separators.
|
| Localisation means using different forms for different readers. It
| cannot work well in general, because it requires a knowledge of all
| preferences and the ability to choose the right one, in an environment
| where many systems are inappropriately set anyway.
|
| ECMAScript has a few localization features. The various
| toString()methods are all implementation dependent, but tend to use
...............^
Inserted space
[...]
 
J

John G Harris

On Mon, 19 Apr 2010 at 10:17:59, in comp.lang.javascript, VK wrote:

OK, let's put it then in more straightforward way: "Krispy Kreme" is
called so because the company decided to call itself so. "ee cummings"
is because Mr. Cummings decided to call himself so. "JavaScript" is
because Netscape Corp. decided to call it so. "javascript" is called
so because a group of individuals, having no relation to the language
creation and holding no right on it decided to call it so and decided
to enforce this name usage on other people. Something doesn't add up
here...
<snip>

You haven't been paying attention.

We don't want a new name for what Netscape produced. JavaScript does
that perfectly well. (And also LiveScript).

We don't want a new name for what Microsoft produces. JScript does that
perfectly well.

We don't want a new name for what Adobe produces. ActionScript does that
perfectly well.

No, what we want is a name to mean any or all of these languages without
having to give a long list of names, and without misusing a trade mark.

var a = 42;
is legal in javascript; not just in JavaScript, JScript, ActionScript,
and, oh, what does Opera call it?

John
 
V

VK

I kept British spelling to be consistent with the rest of the document,
There was actually a w3c proposal to change that...
here:
<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2009Feb/0475.html>

The logical proposal would be "why not use the more common '色' instead
of 'color'" :) There are more people natively speaking Chinese than
natively speaking English of any kind.

Truly I do consider anyone abscessed by national issues in internal
programming vocabularies to be a jerk. That fully applies to
referenced Max Harmony. Glad to see that he is at least happy with
'centre' instead of 'center'.

Also could anyone define "more common" besides "the only right one and
the topic is closed"? By the amount of such or such orthography users
and by the amount of printed materials the standard British dialect
and its orthography are sorrily behind, including "color", say in
Google:
color about 606,000,000
colour about 150,000,000

:)
 
G

Garrett Smith

VK said:
The logical proposal would be "why not use the more common '色' instead
of 'color'" :) There are more people natively speaking Chinese than
natively speaking English of any kind.
That may be true, but how many of them write CSS? ISTM the Chinese may
be too busy manufacturing things for consumption by westerners to be
bothered with CSS conventions. Thinks like, iPhones, for example.
 
G

Garrett Smith

Dr said:
In comp.lang.javascript message <[email protected]
september.org>, Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:49:58, Garrett Smith


Multinational is widely defined, and -isation is a sufficiently well-
known ending. That is how the English language works.

Multinationalisation is not as widely accepted as localisation.
Localisation is the term to use to descript adapting software for a
specific region or language (by adding locale-specific components and
translating text).

Regarding the entry, it makes sense to add mention of
`Date.prototype.toISOString()`.

Last paragraph:
| ECMAScript Edition 5 introduces limited ISO 8601 capabilities with
| `Date.prototype.toISOString()` and new behavior for `Date.parse()`.
 
B

Bwig Zomberi

Dr said:
In comp.lang.javascript message<[email protected]
september.org>, Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:49:58, Garrett Smith


Multinational is widely defined, and -isation is a sufficiently well-
known ending. That is how the English language works.


Multinational as a noun usually refers to a company that transcends
borders. As an adjective, it means that the constituents are from
different countries.

Internationalization is the correct word. MSDN has several guides on that.
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

John said:
We don't want a new name for what Netscape produced. JavaScript does
that perfectly well. (And also LiveScript).

The name "LiveScript" never made it into production, neither did "Mocha":

<http://www.infoworld.com/d/developer-world/javascript-creator-ponders-past-
future-704>
| Eich: That’s right. It was all within six months from May till December
| (1995) that it was Mocha and then LiveScript. And then in early December,
| Netscape and Sun did a license agreement and it became JavaScript. And the
| idea was to make it a complementary scripting language to go with Java,
| with the compiled language.

Netscape Navigator 2.0, the first Web browser to support client-side
scripting, which was _JavaScript_ 1.0, was released in 1996-03. Best to
forget about the other two except in historical matters; they were dropped
for good reasons.
We don't want a new name for what Microsoft produces. JScript does that
perfectly well.

We don't want a new name for what Adobe produces. ActionScript does that
perfectly well.
ACK

No, what we want is a name to mean any or all of these languages without
having to give a long list of names, and without misusing a trade mark.

"ECMAScript implementations" not only fits those requirements very well but
is by comparison a very precise term (that the vendors use themselves)
without the possibility for ambiguity (but the possibility for both
extensions, like "conforming ECMAScript implementation", "implementation of
ECMAScript Ed. 3/5", and abbreviation/acronym like "ES" for "ECMAScript").
It is hard to see why some still refuse to use it.
var a = 42;
is legal in javascript;

And that is as unwise a choice as possible. "javascript" is the most
ambiguous of all possible choices as most people do not know the difference
between "javascript"/"Javascript" and "JavaScript". Instead, they subsume
all client-side scripting, native and host objects, under the name
"javascript"/"Javascript", which is not what it means to its inventors. And
there is no way to extend or abbreviate it without creating further
confusion: "js" does not work, neither does "jscript" as it is already used
(different letter case, but see above); "js5" -- forget it.

"javascript" adds to the increasing script-kiddishness in discussions
("let's have a catchy name for that, we don't care if it fits the bill").
It is the result of the utterly arrogant opinion that the FAQ of a Usenet
newsgroup could unambiguously and globally define the meaning of a term
invented for it. I don't want it.
not just in JavaScript, JScript, ActionScript, and, oh, what does Opera
call it?

Opera call theirs both "JavaScript" and "ECMAScript", with "JavaScript"
being prevalent with regard to DOM scripting and "ECMAScript" with regard to
standards compliance.


PointedEars
 
J

Jeremy J Starcher

Well, I for one am glad that Mosaic and ultimately JavaScript prevailed
:)

Would we have been better off with Javascript[1] or should it have
remained mostly Scheme?


[1] Though I really think it should have retained its name as Livescript
(or was that Live script?)
 
T

Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn

Jeremy said:
Thomas said:
Well, I for one am glad that Mosaic and ultimately JavaScript prevailed
:)

Would we have been better off with Javascript[1] or should it have
remained mostly Scheme?
Mu.

[1] Though I really think it should have retained its name as Livescript
(or was that Live script?)

_LiveScript_ (can't you read?).


PointedEars
 
J

Jeremy J Starcher

Jeremy said:
Thomas said:
Eric Bednarz wrote:
Netscape Navigator 2.0, the first Web browser to support client-side
scripting, which was _JavaScript_ 1.0, was released in 1996-03.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ViolaWWW
Well, I for one am glad that Mosaic and ultimately JavaScript
prevailed :)

Would we have been better off with Javascript[1] or should it have
remained mostly Scheme?

Mu.

According to everything that I have read, Brendan Eich was going to
implement Scheme in the browser.

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/2008/04/popularity.html

Although Scheme was never actually used as the browser scripting
language, it was considered as an option. Although I can't find the
origin of the quote, JavaScript has been called "Scheme in C's clothing."

Hence, I'll rephrase my question: "Would we have been better off had
Scheme been implemented as the Netscape scripting language, instead of
Live Script?"
[1] Though I really think it should have retained its name as
Livescript (or was that Live script?)

_LiveScript_ (can't you read?).

Considering that I am dyslexic, I believe that I read fairly well.
Remembering where non-standard capitalization goes, however, falls under
a different category entirely. You, of all people, surprise me in
confusing the ability to read with the ability to remember.
 

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