Firefox and dHTML

[magic30000]

Hello, I use a js drop nav menu on my CSS styled buttons on this page:
http://davmagic.com/paint/PAGES1.html and it uses this CSS:

#dropmenudiv{
position:absolute;
border:1px dashed black;
border-bottom-width: 0;
font:bold 15px Verdana;
line-height:18px;
z-index:100;
}

#dropmenudiv a{
width: 100%;
display: block;
text-indent: 3px;
text-align: left;
border-bottom: 1px dashed black;
padding: 1px 0;
text-decoration: none;
font-weight: bold;

}

#dropmenudiv a:link {color:#6699ff;}
#dropmenudiv a:visited {color:#6699ff;}
#dropmenudiv a:hover{color:#000000; background-color:#99ccff;}

.... it works as intended in IE5.x by that I mean that when the browser
TEXT SIZE is increased for example, the drop menues remain fixed at the
15px size as I want them to... in FireFox, when the TEXT SIZE is
increased, the drop menu text ALSO increases... this "screws-up" the
usage, and I can see no reason why FF does this as I have specified a
FIXED SIZE for the drop menu text!!!

Anyone see any clues???

The script is here: http://davmagic.com/paint/script1.js

Thanks...

http://davmagic.com/

 

[David Dorward]

in FireFox, when the TEXT SIZE is increased, the drop menu text ALSO
increases... this "screws-up" the usage, and I can see no reason why FF
does this as I have specified a FIXED SIZE for the drop menu text!!!

If a user wants to increase the font size it is most likely because they
can't read the text at the font size specified by the author. IE is the
only browser that doesn't let user's easily resize the text on the page
when the author uses a unit that isn't relative to the default font size.

The solution is to fix the design so that the height of the container
increases with the font size.

 

[Alan J. Flavell]

IE is the only browser that doesn't let user's easily resize the
text on the page when the author uses a unit that isn't relative to
the default font size.

I'd say that the CSS specification is quite clear on that, and MSIE -
curiously - is the only browser trying to conform to specs. (It can't
get it right, due to the lack of calibrated displays, but that's a
different affair).

The user should be able to *overrule* the CSS sizing, of course (my
criticism of IE is that it makes it too difficult for users to do
that, although there's doubtless a bookmarklet out there that will do
the trick), just as the user can overrule any other aspect of CSS
(colours, for example); but if the author specifies an absolute
length, then it's quite wrong for a browser to zoom that to an
arbitrary size - the CSS spec is quite clear, it should be possible to
put a ruler against it and measure it exactly, unless and until the
user overrules the author's misguided attempt to impose absolute
units.

The solution is to fix the design so that the height of the
container increases with the font size.

Sure.

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, (e-mail address removed) quothed:

Hello, I use a js drop nav menu on my CSS styled buttons on this page:
http://davmagic.com/paint/PAGES1.html and it uses this CSS:

#dropmenudiv{
position:absolute;
border:1px dashed black;
border-bottom-width: 0;
font:bold 15px Verdana;
line-height:18px;
z-index:100;
}

#dropmenudiv a{
width: 100%;
display: block;
text-indent: 3px;
text-align: left;
border-bottom: 1px dashed black;
padding: 1px 0;
text-decoration: none;
font-weight: bold;

}

#dropmenudiv a:link {color:#6699ff;}
#dropmenudiv a:visited {color:#6699ff;}
#dropmenudiv a:hover{color:#000000; background-color:#99ccff;}

... it works as intended in IE5.x by that I mean that when the browser
TEXT SIZE is increased for example, the drop menues remain fixed at the
15px size as I want them to... in FireFox, when the TEXT SIZE is
increased, the drop menu text ALSO increases... this "screws-up" the
usage, and I can see no reason why FF does this as I have specified a
FIXED SIZE for the drop menu text!!!

Anyone see any clues???

It has become fashionable to view pixel-fixed text as undesirable and
AFAIK only IE still supports it.

 

[Andy Dingley]

I'd say that the CSS specification is quite clear on that, and MSIE -
curiously - is the only browser trying to conform to specs.

Although I'd agree with your general point, IE also seems to screw
things up when the Windows desktop "font size" setting is increased to
make text readable on a high-resolution display.

 

[Andy Dingley]

... it works as intended in IE5.x by that I mean that when the browser
TEXT SIZE is increased for example, the drop menues remain fixed at the
15px size as I want them to...

Too many bad designers abused fixed size (pixel) fonts when they
shouldn't have done, so now the browser makers are ignoring the spec to
make the overall web more usable.

Your best solution (even better than fixing pixel sizes) is to embrace
flexible sizing. Make your menu use vertical dimensions in ems. If your
desing permits, do this for horizontal dimensions too - although this
can be tricky if you depend on bitmap images in close proximity.

 

[Alan J. Flavell]

Although I'd agree with your general point,

As you said in your other f'up:

||Too many bad designers abused fixed size (pixel) fonts when they
||shouldn't have done, so now the browser makers are ignoring the spec
||to make the overall web more usable.

Which might seem to be user-friendly, but it does nothing to punish
the original error. Might be better if authors were clearly aware
that browsers were going to do just exactly what they asked for, and
that users were going to override their *entire* sizing proposals if
they got it wrong - to see *everything* at the user's own preferred
font size instead.

IE also seems to screw things up when the Windows desktop "font
size" setting is increased to make text readable on a
high-resolution display.

You'll presumably be aware of this page on the subject:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/highdpi.asp

cheers

 

[magic30000]

Thank You (All) for your input... it seems to me that this boils down
basically to the question of "How much control should a designer really
have over his/her design, anyway?" I see so many prominent sites that
still use a fixed style, not only for text but for the whole page
design, including layout.... I personally believe that a flexable
design is required for usability... true enough, but I also believe
that some considerations should still be left to the designer regarding
keeping certain things fixed... if infact that the designer is aware of
usability concepts. The designer still should be allowed to control
what he/she thinks are right... but if browsers choose not to conform
to the specs, as is the case here, then this means that designing to
the specs is futile, or that the specs need to be rewritten???

http://davmagic.com/index.html

 

[Andy Dingley]

You'll presumably be aware of this page on the subject:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/highdpi.asp

That's the problem. Windows desktop already has an adjustment for this,
but IE uses its own (which is almost never configured correctly). I
certainly can't adjust it from the web-site side of the screen.