Flowing text across columns

[James Hutton]

I've got a large number of names (373 in fact) currently in .txt ready
to cut and paste into a page. Is there any way to place these into two
or three columns which flow automatically, or is it easier to do a 2 / 3
column layout and just add portions of the group into the columns manually?

James

 

[Ben C]

I've got a large number of names (373 in fact) currently in .txt ready
to cut and paste into a page. Is there any way to place these into two
or three columns which flow automatically

No. CSS doesn't support columns in the sense of actually flowing text
through them.

, or is it easier to do a 2 / 3
column layout and just add portions of the group into the columns manually?

You will have to do something like that.

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Scripsit James Hutton:

I've got a large number of names (373 in fact) currently in .txt ready
to cut and paste into a page.

But why would you do that? Is such a long list really useful to visitors?

Is there any way to place these into two
or three columns which flow automatically,

And why would you do _that_? You can, though, create a tabular-looking
presentation in a fairly simple way, but you need to use markup that makes
each name an element. I guess that would most logically be <ul> markup, with
each name as a <li> element. Then you would use CSS to make the <li>
elements floated and of the same width (some number of em units, based on an
estimate on the maximum length). They would then run rowwise.

 

[Andy Dingley]

I've got a large number of names (373 in fact) currently in .txt ready
to cut and paste into a page. Is there any way to place these into two
or three columns which flow automatically,

No, HTML rendering doesn't grok newspaper columns.

This is deliberate though, so why fight it? Multiple narrow columns
(newspaper columns) are a feature of broadsheet newspaper printing,
where the best way to arrange scrolling is two-dimensionally. On the
web though, it's easy to scroll a long distance in one dimension, hard
to scroll sideways. So the "web way" of listing your long list is just
to keep it as a _single_ long list, not to break it into columns.

 

[James Hutton]

Scripsit James Hutton:


But why would you do that? Is such a long list really useful to visitors?

Well it's the roll of honour for ARA General Belgrano, so I'd like to
get all of them mentioned in one place.

And why would you do _that_? You can, though, create a tabular-looking
presentation in a fairly simple way, but you need to use markup that
makes each name an element. I guess that would most logically be <ul>
markup, with each name as a <li> element. Then you would use CSS to make
the <li> elements floated and of the same width (some number of em
units, based on an estimate on the maximum length). They would then run
rowwise.

Thanks for that, I'll have a look and play with that tonight.

James

 

[dorayme]

Scripsit James Hutton:


But why would you do that?

Surely there could be many good reasons. For example, a jailed
identity thief might want to list all his victims to boast about
his exploits or indeed, to make a public confession and apology.
Part of my business plan, for example, is to make websites for
convicts, taking on even the severest cases, ones that humans
cannot stomach. I also plan 'jilted-lover' and divorce websites
where infidelity is a big issue; the faithless partner sometimes
needing to list all his or her liaisons in an effort to either
humiliate or make some kind of confession-amend. On a more
cheerful note, wedding sites where the guests are listed.

And why would you do _that_? You can, though, create a tabular-looking
presentation in a fairly simple way, but you need to use markup that makes
each name an element. I guess that would most logically be <ul> markup, with
each name as a <li> element. Then you would use CSS to make the <li>
elements floated and of the same width (some number of em units, based on an
estimate on the maximum length). They would then run rowwise.

Or, to remember something I once did, just float the <ul>s, pick
a reasonable number of names to put in each ul that would almost
for sure not to need vertical scrolling on most machines. Yes, I
know, not a perfect solution, but it can look not too bad and you
even get to keep an alphabetical ordering which a user will
quickly get to grasp. Here is an example of what I have in mind:

<http://members.optushome.com.au/droovies/test/someKindOfSubstitut
e.html>

You will need to adjust the em value for width as JK explains
above.

 

[dorayme]

No, HTML rendering doesn't grok newspaper columns.

This is deliberate though, so why fight it?

Hey Andy, relax. You woke up punching. (Some of the preservative
in Red wines can cause trouble I have found). Op is not fighting
here yet.

Multiple narrow columns
(newspaper columns) are a feature of broadsheet newspaper printing,
where the best way to arrange scrolling is two-dimensionally. On the
web though, it's easy to scroll a long distance in one dimension, hard
to scroll sideways. So the "web way" of listing your long list is just
to keep it as a _single_ long list, not to break it into columns.

No no... all this is not relevant at all. What is wanted and it
would be absurd to deliberately not provide it if it was feasible
is this: the cols flow-wrap, left to right, they adjust their
size to the browser window just like with floated divs. Sideways
scrolling is no necessary part of this conception. I, for one,
would like it very much. This would be 'newspaper' cols adapted
for the web.

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Scripsit James Hutton:

Well it's the roll of honour for ARA General Belgrano, so I'd like to
get all of them mentioned in one place.

I asked whether it would be useful to visitors. The few people who would be
interested in such matters would have their needs satisfied if you had just
a link to a document that contains the names as a list, in any format (HTML
<ul>, plain text, whatever).

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Scripsit dorayme:

Surely there could be many good reasons.

Maybe there could, but good examples are hard to find.

For example, a jailed
identity thief might want to list all his victims to boast about
his exploits or indeed, to make a public confession and apology.

Where I live (within the European Union), that would be a crime, according
to legislation based on the directive on protection of personal data, among
other things.

On a more
cheerful note, wedding sites where the guests are listed.

That would be illegal too, unless you have a freely given permission based
on sufficient information, from each and every guest.

Or, to remember something I once did, just float the <ul>s, pick
a reasonable number of names to put in each ul that would almost
for sure not to need vertical scrolling on most machines.

you even get to keep an alphabetical ordering which a user will
quickly get to grasp.

You get an alphabetic order if you just put the names in alphabetic order
initially. You probably mean that you get it _columnwise_, but why would
that be superior, or even desirable? We normally read lines from top to
bottom but left to right within each line, and why should this be an
exception?

 

[dorayme]

You mean dividing something that is logically one list, into a set of <ul>
elements. Logic aside, that's simply unnecessarily complex.

I agree that it is much simpler for the website maker to list
thousands of names in one ul and let the user scroll down and
that this is also the cleanest thing to do from a meaning point
of view in the HTML. I don't agree that my suggested
columning-grouping-scheme is _simply_ unnecessarily complex. In
some situations it could be a useful visual ordering, easier for
humans to see neat blocks, read left to right as in my link. It
was a suggestion of mine that enabled the use of the whole screen
in a fluid manner.

You get an alphabetic order if you just put the names in alphabetic order
initially.

Of course, but the point as in my supplied demo url, is obviously
as you guess below.

You probably mean that you get it _columnwise_, but why would
that be superior, or even desirable?

So people on a big screens can do as little scrolling as possible
and still be getting the alphabetical order. See the demo I made
to illustrate the idea. Imagine the convenience when there are
big screens and thousands of names and a keen eyed user wanting
to know quite a few things. For a start, on a big screen, it is
much more likely that all the names beginning with a particular
letter will be able to be seen at once and scrutinised without
need of scrolling.

I confess, again, that it does involve splitting up a perfectly
meaningful single list into a number of lists for presentational
purposes. But there is an out on this one, with one uncomfortable
drawback. Namely, to make the lists based on alphabetical
grouping, namely all As in one list, all the Bs in another etc.
Then we have logic back and the rest is about presentation.

The drawback (and an idea to overcome it) I will leave for now as
I can't be sure anyone is that interested.

 

[Joel Shepherd]

Scripsit James Hutton:


I asked whether it would be useful to visitors. The few people who would be
interested in such matters would have their needs satisfied if you had just
a link to a document that contains the names as a list, in any format (HTML
<ul>, plain text, whatever).

Depending on the OP's intentions that may or may not be practical. A
list of the 323 killed when she was sunk might be doable in an HTML
<ul>; a list of roughly 1140 aboard at the time is stretching the limits
and somewhat less friendly to visitors; a list of the 10000+ (probably
more on the order of 20-30K) of those who served with the ship while she
was commissioned by Argentina is beyond practical limits for a useful
single document; a list of those plus the additional 10-15K more who
served with the ship while she was commissioned by the US is as well.

And, given those numbers and the way human reproduction works, you're
also probably significantly underestimating the number of people who
would be interested. I have first-hand experience with this use-case: do
you?

A single giant list of 1000-45000 names is not at all pleasant to read,
even if from a machine's point of view it's quite efficient. Neither is
a page with a single long-but-reasonable list of names a very efficient
use of canvas.

What could possibly be wrong, then, with wanting to present that long
list -- or intelligently selected subsets of it -- in a columnar
presentation, to use space more efficiently and make navigation less
problematic as well?

 

[Jukka K. Korpela]

Scripsit Joel Shepherd:

A single giant list of 1000-45000 names is not at all pleasant to
read, even if from a machine's point of view it's quite efficient.

Well that _was_ part of my point. Who wants to read 45,000 names, no matter
how they are displayed? You want to _search_ for names. So a search form
would work well, properly implemented. But even a separate flat text file is
better than a contrived way to rendering the names as part of a web page
organized as a sequence of lists formatted in columns. One name per line is
not a problem, rather an asset. When you see a name on one line, e.g. after
using the Find function of a browser or a text editor, it's better than
seeing the name in some column in a row where you need to scan with your
eyes to find the relevant item.

One name per line is also much better than any columnar presentation, when
_people's_ names are involved. A person's name might be anything from two or
three one-syllable words to a dozen of long words.

 

[Ben C]

Scripsit Joel Shepherd:


Well that _was_ part of my point. Who wants to read 45,000 names, no matter
how they are displayed? You want to _search_ for names. So a search form
would work well, properly implemented. But even a separate flat text file is
better than a contrived way to rendering the names as part of a web page
organized as a sequence of lists formatted in columns. One name per line is
not a problem, rather an asset. When you see a name on one line, e.g. after
using the Find function of a browser or a text editor, it's better than
seeing the name in some column in a row where you need to scan with your
eyes to find the relevant item.

One name per line is also much better than any columnar presentation, when
_people's_ names are involved. A person's name might be anything from two or
three one-syllable words to a dozen of long words.

Where were you when they were designing the Vietnam veterans' memorial
in Washington?

 

[Adrienne Boswell]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed James Hutton

I've got a large number of names (373 in fact) currently in .txt ready
to cut and paste into a page. Is there any way to place these into two
or three columns which flow automatically, or is it easier to do a 2 /
3 column layout and just add portions of the group into the columns
manually?

James

As others have noted, that could be difficult for the user. Why not page
the results (say 50 per page), and have an alpha list at the top of each
page? You could even offer the user a choice of how many records per page.

Of course, the above depends on having the ability to do this server side,
and ideally out of a database.