Font Sizes (yet again)

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Bob, Dec 28, 2003.

  1. Bob

    Bob Guest

    OK... been toying around with font sizes, I know the up and downs
    of making changes, and I'm trying to be a good boy and keep it
    flexible for the user. But, what I need to do is to have slightly
    smaller than normal text for some pages. So, I figured I'd do
    something like this:

    <style> <!-- td { font-size: 1em } --> </style>

    That does what I need and still leaves it flexible for the user. The
    only issue I have now is that NN4 sizes everything one notch larger
    on the size scale than IE & NN6+/Moz. If at all possible, I'd like to
    get relatively consistent sizing to start with.

    Any nifty work arounds for NN4 to beat it into submission ?
    Bob, Dec 28, 2003
    #1
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  2. Bob wrote:

    > OK... been toying around with font sizes, I know the up and downs
    > of making changes, and I'm trying to be a good boy and keep it
    > flexible for the user. But, what I need to do is to have slightly
    > smaller than normal text for some pages. So, I figured I'd do
    > something like this:
    >
    > <style> <!-- td { font-size: 1em } --> </style>
    >
    > That does what I need and still leaves it flexible for the user. The
    > only issue I have now is that NN4 sizes everything one notch larger
    > on the size scale than IE & NN6+/Moz. If at all possible, I'd like to
    > get relatively consistent sizing to start with.
    >
    > Any nifty work arounds for NN4 to beat it into submission ?
    >


    NS4 doesn't know this neat little trick:

    <style>
    <!--
    @import url(style.css);
    -->
    </style>

    so you can have
    <link rel=stylesheet type=text/css href=style4ns.css>
    <style>
    <!--
    @import url(style.css);
    -->
    </style>

    where style4ns.css is a style sheet for ns and style.css changes the
    stuff so that it fits for mozilla.

    Thomas
    Thomas Jollans, Dec 28, 2003
    #2
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  3. Bob <> wrote:

    > - - what I need to do is to have slightly
    > smaller than normal text for some pages.


    OK, then make it 90%. Or maybe 85%.

    > <style> <!-- td { font-size: 1em } --> </style>


    If it makes the text in a cell smaller, consider it a browser bug.
    The em unit (when used in font-size value) means the font size of the
    parent element, in this case <td>. It should normally inherit its font
    size from its parent, <table>, which should inherit it from <body>.
    Hence, you should get the basic font size on the page, _no_ change.

    In theory, a browser could have a browser style sheet with, say,
    td { font-size: 1.1em; }, meaning that all text in tables is in
    increased size by default. And then setting font-size: 1em would have
    an effect. But this isn't what IE does. It simply gets things wrong.

    This is one reason why percentages are better than em unit when setting
    font-size. In principle, font-size: 1em and font-size: 100% are
    completely equivalent. In practice, IE often gets the first wrong and
    the second right. Thus, to reduce font size in table cells,

    <style type="text/css">
    td { font-size: 90%; }
    </style>

    is OK. (Netscape 4 calculates percentages a bit wrong, but we can
    ignore such phenomena. Anyone who expects to have pages well styled on
    Netscape 4 in the present world needs to have reality checkers
    calibrated.)

    Just remember that things change quite a bit if you have nested tables.
    Then you need to take precautions to prevent double or triple effects.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Dec 28, 2003
    #3
  4. Bob

    brucie Guest

    in post <news:>
    Bob said:

    > what I need to do is to have slightly smaller than normal text for
    > some pages.


    why do you need the text slightly more difficult to read on some pages?


    --
    brucie
    29/December/2003 08:03:07 am kilo
    brucie, Dec 28, 2003
    #4
  5. Bob

    Sid Ismail Guest

    On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:58:35 GMT, Bob <> wrote:

    : OK... been toying around with font sizes, I know the up and downs
    : of making changes, and I'm trying to be a good boy and keep it
    : flexible for the user.


    Then leave it alone.

    Sid
    Sid Ismail, Dec 28, 2003
    #5
  6. Bob

    rf Guest

    "Bob" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > OK... been toying around with font sizes, I know the up and downs
    > of making changes, and I'm trying to be a good boy and keep it
    > flexible for the user. But, what I need to do is to have slightly
    > smaller than normal text for some pages. So, I figured I'd do
    > something like this:
    >
    > <style> <!-- td { font-size: 1em } --> </style>
    >
    > That does what I need and still leaves it flexible for the user. The
    > only issue I have now is that NN4 sizes everything one notch larger
    > on the size scale than IE & NN6+/Moz. If at all possible, I'd like to
    > get relatively consistent sizing to start with.
    >
    > Any nifty work arounds for NN4 to beat it into submission ?


    Ctrl -

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Dec 29, 2003
    #6
  7. Bob

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 01:13:07 GMT, rf declared in alt.html:
    > "Bob" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >> Any nifty work arounds for NN4 to beat it into submission ?

    >
    > Ctrl -
    >


    Not in NS4.

    Ctrl [

    :)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Dec 29, 2003
    #7
  8. Bob

    rf Guest

    "rf" <> wrote in message
    news:DcLHb.68431$...
    >
    > "Bob" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > OK... been toying around with font sizes, I know the up and downs
    > > of making changes, and I'm trying to be a good boy and keep it
    > > flexible for the user. But, what I need to do is to have slightly
    > > smaller than normal text for some pages. So, I figured I'd do
    > > something like this:
    > >
    > > <style> <!-- td { font-size: 1em } --> </style>
    > >
    > > That does what I need and still leaves it flexible for the user. The
    > > only issue I have now is that NN4 sizes everything one notch larger
    > > on the size scale than IE & NN6+/Moz. If at all possible, I'd like to
    > > get relatively consistent sizing to start with.
    > >
    > > Any nifty work arounds for NN4 to beat it into submission ?

    >
    > Ctrl -


    Hmmm. It's been so long since I even powered up NN4 :)

    Ctrl [

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Dec 29, 2003
    #8
  9. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:04:45 +1000, brucie
    <> wrote:

    >in post <news:>
    >Bob said:
    >
    >> what I need to do is to have slightly smaller than normal text for
    >> some pages.

    >
    >why do you need the text slightly more difficult to read on some pages?


    I'm going to assume you skipped any graphic design courses.
    Bob, Dec 29, 2003
    #9
  10. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:50:40 +0200, Sid Ismail <>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 17:58:35 GMT, Bob <> wrote:
    >
    >: OK... been toying around with font sizes, I know the up and downs
    >: of making changes, and I'm trying to be a good boy and keep it
    >: flexible for the user.
    >
    >
    >Then leave it alone.
    >
    >Sid


    See my reply to brucie.
    Bob, Dec 29, 2003
    #10
  11. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:31:10 +0000 (UTC), "Jukka K. Korpela"
    <> wrote:

    >> <style> <!-- td { font-size: 1em } --> </style>

    >
    >If it makes the text in a cell smaller, consider it a browser bug.


    Yes. sorry about that. I wrote that up as a "clean" example and
    should have typed something like .9em... although IE does seem to
    have some bugs on that very issue.

    > But this isn't what IE does. It simply gets things wrong.


    noted.

    >In principle, font-size: 1em and font-size: 100% are
    >completely equivalent. In practice, IE often gets the first wrong and
    >the second right. Thus, to reduce font size in table cells,


    Again noted. Same bug as above, I think.

    >Just remember that things change quite a bit if you have nested tables.
    >Then you need to take precautions to prevent double or triple effects.


    Good tip, thanks.
    Bob, Dec 29, 2003
    #11
  12. Bob wrote:
    >> why do you need the text slightly more difficult to read on some pages?

    >
    > I'm going to assume you skipped any graphic design courses.


    This is a web page, not a magazine. I want *my* preferences obeyed,
    which means reading text at the size I have selected.
    Leif K-Brooks, Dec 29, 2003
    #12
  13. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 06:04:04 GMT, Leif K-Brooks
    <> wrote:

    >Bob wrote:
    >>> why do you need the text slightly more difficult to read on some pages?

    >>
    >> I'm going to assume you skipped any graphic design courses.

    >
    >This is a web page, not a magazine. I want *my* preferences obeyed,
    >which means reading text at the size I have selected.


    What do you do if the magazine page uses a font size you don't like ?

    Most businesses are of the opinion that a web page is to be
    designed to *their* requirements - just like the magazine ad. They
    pay for it, it's their choice.
    Bob, Dec 29, 2003
    #13
  14. Bob

    brucie Guest

    in post <news:>
    Bob said:

    >>This is a web page, not a magazine. I want *my* preferences obeyed,
    >>which means reading text at the size I have selected.


    > What do you do if the magazine page uses a font size you don't like ?


    use a magnifying glass besides its completely different medium. A WEB
    PAGE IS NOT A PIECE OF PAPER.

    > Most businesses are of the opinion that a web page is to be
    > designed to *their* requirements


    it would be a total tragedy if they were designed for the visitor.

    > - just like the magazine ad. They pay for it, it's their choice.


    i pity your poor clients

    --
    brucie
    29/December/2003 04:52:32 pm kilo
    brucie, Dec 29, 2003
    #14
  15. Bob

    brucie Guest

    in post <news:>
    Bob said:

    >>why do you need the text slightly more difficult to read on some pages?


    > I'm going to assume you skipped any graphic design courses.


    i'm going to assume you're too stupid to answer a simple question.

    --
    brucie
    29/December/2003 05:00:26 pm kilo
    brucie, Dec 29, 2003
    #15
  16. Bob

    rf Guest

    "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 01:13:07 GMT, rf declared in alt.html:
    > > "Bob" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >>
    > >> Any nifty work arounds for NN4 to beat it into submission ?

    > >
    > > Ctrl -
    > >

    >
    > Not in NS4.
    >
    > Ctrl [
    >
    > :)


    Yeah yeah :) See my instant correction :-(

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Dec 29, 2003
    #16
  17. Bob

    Eric Bohlman Guest

    Bob <> wrote in
    news::

    > Most businesses are of the opinion that a web page is to be
    > designed to *their* requirements - just like the magazine ad. They
    > pay for it, it's their choice.


    Ever wonder why printing presses are so expensive (even a small one that
    can sit on top of a table can easily cost over $10,000)? It's because
    making a machine that puts dots in the exact same places on thousands of
    sheets of paper is a rather tough task. In a magazine ad printed by a
    competent printer, every single character will be the exact same size
    regardless of which copy of the magazine someone buys.

    On the Web, though, things are different. People's viewing situations vary
    widely. Pick two viewers at random, and it's quite unlikely that a pixel
    is the same size for both of them (Justin and Jason both have 19" monitors.
    Justin's is set for 1024x768 and Jason's is set for 1280x1024. If you fix
    your font size at 12px, Justin and Jason will see *different*-sized text).
    This leads to a sort of paradox; on the Web, the harder you try to fix
    everything in terms of pixels, the *more* variation your users will see.
    And the more flexibility you allow the user, the more likely it is that
    their view of your page will approximate your view, even though the pixel
    dimensions may be different.
    Eric Bohlman, Dec 29, 2003
    #17
  18. Bob

    rf Guest

    "Bob" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 08:04:45 +1000, brucie
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >in post <news:>
    > >Bob said:
    > >
    > >> what I need to do is to have slightly smaller than normal text for
    > >> some pages.

    > >
    > >why do you need the text slightly more difficult to read on some pages?

    >
    > I'm going to assume you skipped any graphic design courses.


    And I am going to assume that you skipped any web design courses.

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Dec 29, 2003
    #18
  19. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:01:01 +1000, brucie
    <> wrote:

    >>>why do you need the text slightly more difficult to read on some pages?

    >
    >> I'm going to assume you skipped any graphic design courses.

    >
    >i'm going to assume you're too stupid to answer a simple question.


    Sorry, but your question makes an incorrect assumption and it is not
    possible to answer it directly since I am not making the pages more
    difficult to read. I am suggesting a font size to the user via a
    style sheet. Should a user find the minor reduction in font size an
    impediment to their reading process, the user may choose to use their
    own style sheet or may simply choose to use a menu option to (easily)
    increase or decrease the font sizes on the page.

    Now, that said, whether you choose to agree with it or not, the web
    is now an advertising medium. Not every site is the W3C and a bunch
    of boring text specifications. Businesses design their sites (and in
    fact an entire coordinated look for their publications) based on
    graphical/visual appeal. That requires developing graphics in certain
    sizes and including text elements. The relationship between the size
    of the graphics and text is key facet of "graphic design" (Hence
    my earlier comment regarding your lack of a professional graphics
    design background). You may choose to ignore those design rules if
    you wish. I do not.
    Bob, Dec 29, 2003
    #19
  20. Bob

    Bob Guest

    On 29 Dec 2003 08:17:05 GMT, Eric Bohlman <>
    wrote:

    >If you fix
    >your font size at 12px, Justin and Jason will see *different*-sized text).


    a. Reread my original post. I'm using a size algorithm that will vary
    with the user's setup and is adjustable by the user.

    b. Proportionally, everything will be the same. That's the key factor
    in graphics design. However, I agree that the user needs control to
    avoid difficult to read text. See (a) above.

    >And the more flexibility you allow the user, the more likely it is that
    >their view of your page will approximate your view, even though the pixel
    >dimensions may be different.


    Not really. It is more likely that the text will be a size they like
    if they choose it. Anything other than fixed proportional dimensions
    (e.g. px sizes) causes users systems to vary widely in appearance.
    Bob, Dec 29, 2003
    #20
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