Frames are bad - really?

[Andy Dingley]

Or you just need to use Internet Explorer

No, _I_ don't need to use it, I'd need to make my _users_ use it.
That's like having a "This Site Best Viewed With..." button.

And it still doesn't work. How do I print such a link on a business card
or paper advert ?

(like 90% of the rest of the Web population).

It's not that much.

 

[dorayme]

I couldn't care less what you think about me since that has nothing to do with
the content of the argument.

Not sure there is much point in being so huffy on this one. I was not
thinking all that badly of you at all! In fact, I see one important point
you are right about. I just don't think it is the "entire argument" (was
this the phrase you used previously?). The OP was asking generally about
frames, I admitted to having at least one site in them, said I had taken
some precautions to have links back to a frameless home page, I thought this
was relevant to an aspect of the discussion.

Please care a bit about what I have to say, I am surely not so lost a cause?
Or maybe I am!

dorayme

 

[jake]

And miss out on tabbed browsing, decent CSS support, decent security, etc
just to be able to bookmark a handful of framed pages? No thanks.

And even if frames were universally bookmarkable, it still doesn't solve
the related problem of linking to a particular frame.

Depends if you see it as a problem.

Let's see.

I have a 3-frame presentation.

Frame 1. A through Z
Frame 2. A list of all the chemicals starting with A, or B or whatever's
set by Frame 1.
Frame 3. details about the safety measures for the chemical set by Frame
2.


So.

I want details about Isobutanol.

I click on 'I', then click on 'Isobutanol'.

How much more simpler could it be? Clearly you see a problem where there
is no problem.

regards.

 

[jake]

Or you just need to use Internet Explorer (like 90% of the rest of the
Web population).

Why should I use an inferior browser just because the masses do?
[/QUOTE]

Your choice.

regards.

 

[jake]

No, _I_ don't need to use it, I'd need to make my _users_ use it.
That's like having a "This Site Best Viewed With..." button.

And it still doesn't work. How do I print such a link on a business card
or paper advert ?

Give me a description of this hypothetical framed site ...

regards.

 

[Toby Inkster]

Frame 1. A through Z
Frame 2. A list of all the chemicals starting with A, or B or whatever's
set by Frame 1.
Frame 3. details about the safety measures for the chemical set by Frame
2.

I click on 'I', then click on 'Isobutanol'.

How much more simpler could it be? Clearly you see a problem where there
is no problem.

OK. The above chemical reference site belongs to you.

I, on the other hand, run a completely different website, on the topic
of painting.

I want to link to your page on Isobutanol, because that can be used as a
solvent. So I have a choice:

* link to your "isobutanol.html" page, in which case none of
your navigation loads up; or
* link to your "index.html" page, in which case the visitor
has to do extra work to find info on isobutanol.

Obviously I don't want to create extra work for my visitors, so I do the
former. The visitor never gets to see your navigation, so you miss out on
potentially valuable hits to other parts of your site.

Nice choice using frames there Jake.

 

[dorayme]

I want to link to your page on Isobutanol, because that can be used as a
solvent. So I have a choice:

* link to your "isobutanol.html" page, in which case none of
your navigation loads up; or
* link to your "index.html" page, in which case the visitor
has to do extra work to find info on isobutanol.

Obviously I don't want to create extra work for my visitors, so I do the
former. The visitor never gets to see your navigation, so you miss out on
potentially valuable hits to other parts of your site.

Nice choice using frames there Jake.

You make it seem worse than it is though. If Jake is careful to have put a
link to his home page on the solvent page concerned, it is not such a devil
of a choice. The visitor can go on if he wants via the link ...

dorayme

 

[Blinky the Shark]

jake wrote:

OK. The above chemical reference site belongs to you.

I, on the other hand, run a completely different website, on the topic
of painting.

I want to link to your page on Isobutanol, because that can be used as a
solvent. So I have a choice:

* link to your "isobutanol.html" page, in which case none of
your navigation loads up; or
* link to your "index.html" page, in which case the visitor
has to do extra work to find info on isobutanol.

Obviously I don't want to create extra work for my visitors, so I do the
former. The visitor never gets to see your navigation, so you miss out on
potentially valuable hits to other parts of your site.

Nice choice using frames there Jake.

Especially if you take the third choice, and link to another site that
presents the same information in a more usable manner...

 

[jake]

OK. The above chemical reference site belongs to you.

I, on the other hand, run a completely different website, on the topic
of painting.

I want to link to your page on Isobutanol, because that can be used as a
solvent. So I have a choice:

* link to your "isobutanol.html" page, in which case none of
your navigation loads up; or

And this is a problem? At the bottom of isobutanol.html is a link that
says something like "No navigation? Go here" ..... at which point
they're back at the frameset/index page.

* link to your "index.html" page, in which case the visitor
has to do extra work to find info on isobutanol.

Uh ... yes. The visitor has to press 'I', then click on 'Isobutanol'.

Again: this is a problem? Even Stupid People could manage this in about
half-a-second.

Obviously I don't want to create extra work for my visitors, so I do the
former. The visitor never gets to see your navigation,

See above.

so you miss out on
potentially valuable hits to other parts of your site. Wrong.


Nice choice using frames there Jake.

Are you really writing a page to tell people on how to use frames
properly? .................. now *that's* worrying ;-)regards.

 

[jake]

You make it seem worse than it is though. If Jake is careful to have put a
link to his home page on the solvent page concerned, it is not such a devil
of a choice. The visitor can go on if he wants via the link ...

dorayme

Sadly, this is the standard approach of the XXX haters -- where 'XXX'
can be anything you like (Frames, Iframes, Pop-up windows, Verdana font,
etc.).

i.e. You take up a position somewhere between 'Extreme' and 'Bogosity'
-- produce an argument -- and then claim that as the norm ;-)

regards.

 

[Alan Wood]

Let's see.

I have a 3-frame presentation.

Frame 1. A through Z
Frame 2. A list of all the chemicals starting with A, or B or whatever's
set by Frame 1.
Frame 3. details about the safety measures for the chemical set by Frame
2.


I want details about Isobutanol.

I click on 'I', then click on 'Isobutanol'.

How much more simpler could it be? Clearly you see a problem where there
is no problem.

It is possible to have a framed site like this, and to enable a
reasonably knowledgable user to bookmark the safety measures page for
isobutanol.

My chemical site uses some framed indexes, but has a "No frames" link
on each data sheet. Click the link and you have a complete page that
can be bookmarked in any browser that supports bookmarking.

<http://www.alanwood.net/pesticides/index_cn_frame.html>

 

[WCB]

... warm, cute, cuddly things ... like a big teddy-bear?


Frames are just fine -- providing they're used properly.

But that's OK. You just need to ensure:
(a) You use the <noframes></noframes> to supply either a menu or a link
to a menu page.
(b) The content frames contain a link back to the menu (frameset or menu
page).


Not really -- even if it was true. But it's not.

IE users have been able to bookmark a framed page 'in context' for years
(and that's 85-90% of your audience); other browser manufacturers
haven't thought it a big enough deal to warrant providing the facility.


Most modern AT (assistive technology) UAs (screen readers, talking
browsers, etc.) handle a well-written framed site without any
difficulty.

Hmmm. Can't think of anything significant to provide you with.


Aren't they, just.

Still, just sit back and wait for the frames-are-evil people to provide
you with a lot of references. Just remember to take the batteries out of
your bogosity meter while your reading them to prevent being constantly
distracted;-)
regards.

I have read that simply put, some browsers don't have frame
ability. But is there some study that guess-timates how many?
If its say 30%, its worth worrrying about, but if its like 3%
not whole bunches. I am sure there are some die-hard Lynx
users and a few people running ancient browsers on W95-8.
The question is, has anybody figured out about what % are
not frames capable?

 

[WCB]

If your old sites are commercial, now would be a good time to get your
thoughts together about how you used "cutting-edge" technology to
provide clients with the "very best solution available" at the time. But
alas, the web has moved on, and events have forced you to come to them
now, as the web has matured, to offer to redo the sites without frames
and incidentally for a fee, as they are now obsolete. You'll use a whole
new and much better technology that utilizes any-size-design, CSS to
unclutter the pages and make them faster, compliance to some spec, etc,
etc... If you have your thoughts together and you're good at sales, you
can do this. Otherwise someone else probably will.
I wouldn't advertise old framed sites until I fixed them up. Nearly all
commercial sites get upgraded periodically. It keeps developers alive.

leo

If Frames are not the hot setup, what is?
What do I google for to find tutorials to do it
in the best practices manner?

No need for me to practice hard doing it well
the wrong way.

What do I need to study to replace frames?

 

[WCB]

And this is a problem? At the bottom of isobutanol.html is a link that
says something like "No navigation? Go here" ..... at which point
they're back at the frameset/index page.

I have noticed this on a few sites. Now I understand.
It seem then that the guys who use frames should
be sure to have a next, previous, home link explicitly
working.
So its not then exactly a frame problem, but failure
to use frames right. Or am I not understanding this?

So frames would seem to be OK if you take these
problems into account.

Or are there other deeper problems with frames?

 

[dorayme]

Are you really writing a page to tell people on how to use frames
properly? .................. now *that's* worrying ;-)

Just relax. Toby Inkster has made at various times very good suggestions
about frames. The decision whether to use them these days for serious sites
is not so hard given the problems.

But you are right that these problems are not the end of the world. I think
they are a very attractive and tempting technology. It is straight out nice
that a nav list does not disappear, there is something almost ridiculous in
fact in it doing so. We have become used to this absurdity because it
creates less problems overall.

The one site I did do in frames, with a frameless home page, is nice to work
on because folk can get to anywhere quickly and directly from the content
nav bar. It is also terrific for me to check things out for the same reason.
I will get around to being rid of them one day, but everyone should have at
least one framed site kicking about somewhere.

I have said before and I will say again, search engine problems, bookmarking
and so on are not everything. Most sites are hardly seen by anyone and never
will be. Home sites are often nice for oneself, family, a few friends and a
few contacts now and then. Frames are fine and I would go further: they are
great for such.

dorayme

 

[Leif K-Brooks]

I am part way through writing a frames tutorial, that explains how to
circumvent most of the problems with frames:

http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/frames/frameset.php

You should probably check that $_GET['page'] is a valid page before
trying to include it. Right now, if you go to
http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/frames/frameset.php?page=nonexistant,
it will try to open a file called pages/nonexistant.page and display a
PHP error message when the file can't be found.

I don't think there's much of a security vulnerability (you can't see
the database password by viewing ../../include.php, for instance, since
it appends .page to the filename), but it's always better to be safe
than sorry.

 

[Adrienne]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed WCB

If Frames are not the hot setup, what is?
What do I google for to find tutorials to do it
in the best practices manner?

No need for me to practice hard doing it well
the wrong way.

What do I need to study to replace frames?

Most people use frames to keep a menu in place. The replacement for that
would be a server side include and CSS. http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?
Include_one_file_in_another

 

[Mark Parnell]

What do I need to study to replace frames?

That depends on what functionality the frames provide that you want to
replace.

There are a couple of common reasons people use frames. The first reason
is so that they only have to update 1 file e.g. for their menu. The link
Adrienne provided explains various other solutions for that. The other
main reason is so that the navigation or header stays on the screen all
the time (i.e. scrolls separately from the body). This can be achieved
through CSS and position: fixed; (IE doesn't support it, but there are
Javascript workarounds).

What do your frames do that you want to know how to replace (if not one
of the above)?

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, WCB quothed

I have read that simply put, some browsers don't have frame
ability. But is there some study that guess-timates how many?
If its say 30%, its worth worrrying about, but if its like 3%
not whole bunches. I am sure there are some die-hard Lynx
users and a few people running ancient browsers on W95-8.
The question is, has anybody figured out about what % are
not frames capable?

As for browsers-in-use, I'd say less than 1%. All even halfway-modern
graphical browsers anyone's ever heard of support frames.

 

[rf]

As for browsers-in-use, I'd say less than 1%. All even halfway-modern
graphical browsers anyone's ever heard of support frames.

What about your most important visitor: googlebot?

Cheers
Richard.