frames question

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Dene Wilby, Jun 4, 2006.

  1. Dene Wilby

    Dene Wilby Guest

    Hi,

    You're probably going to go 'aaaarrrggghhhh' at the massive amount of
    useage of frames in this but can someone tell me why the pages looks
    perfect in IE on my PC but when I look at it in Safari I get some white
    areas that shouldn't be there.

    http://www.gep.co.uk/iq/iq06test/

    thanks

    Dene
     
    Dene Wilby, Jun 4, 2006
    #1
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  2. Dene Wilby wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > You're probably going to go 'aaaarrrggghhhh' at the massive amount of
    > useage of frames in this


    We go "aaaarrrghhhh" at _any_ use of frames. They are almost never a good
    solution for a problem.

    > but can someone tell me why the pages looks
    > perfect in IE on my PC but when I look at it in Safari I get some white
    > areas that shouldn't be there.


    As always, using real HTML is the starting point:

    http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.gep.co.uk/iq/iq06test/

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Jun 4, 2006
    #2
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  3. On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 21:55:09 +0100, in alt.html David Dorward
    <> wrote:
    >Dene Wilby wrote:
    >
    >> You're probably going to go 'aaaarrrggghhhh' at the massive amount of
    >> useage of frames in this

    >
    >We go "aaaarrrghhhh" at _any_ use of frames. They are almost never a good
    >solution for a problem.


    How about using IFRAME vice SSI, when your ISP does not enable SSI? Or
    is there another way?

    --
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can let you rent it for a while...
     
    William Hughes, Jun 5, 2006
    #3
  4. Dene Wilby

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Mark Parnell, Jun 5, 2006
    #4
  5. On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 12:10:59 +1000, in alt.html Mark Parnell
    <> wrote:

    >Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, William Hughes
    ><> declared in alt.html:
    >
    >> How about using IFRAME vice SSI, when your ISP does not enable SSI? Or
    >> is there another way?

    >
    >Get a decent host? :)


    Would that were possible. The apartment complex is hardwired for
    Grande - Internet, TV cable, telephone...

    >There are a couple of alternatives though:
    >http://allmyfaqs.net/faq.pl?Include_one_file_in_another


    Hmm... looks like IFRAME is the only semi-reliable option at this
    point.

    --
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can let you rent it for a while...
     
    William Hughes, Jun 5, 2006
    #5
  6. Dene Wilby

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, William Hughes
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > Hmm... looks like IFRAME is the only semi-reliable option at this
    > point.


    Preprocessing is always reliable and always available.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
    http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
     
    Mark Parnell, Jun 5, 2006
    #6
  7. On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:48:56 +1000, in alt.html Mark Parnell
    <> wrote:
    >Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, William Hughes
    ><> declared in alt.html:
    >
    >> Hmm... looks like IFRAME is the only semi-reliable option at this
    >> point.

    >
    >Preprocessing is always reliable and always available.


    True, but there are disk-space limitations to consider...

    --
    William Hughes, San Antonio, Texas:
    The Carrier Project: http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/carrier.htm
     
    William Hughes, Jun 5, 2006
    #7
  8. William Hughes wrote:

    >>Preprocessing is always reliable and always available.


    > True, but there are disk-space limitations to consider...


    Given the size of an HTML document compared to other media types, it is very
    rare that this should be significant (although heavily presentational
    markup can have some impact, but this can be resolved through the use of
    current authoring standards rather then those used before the turn turn of
    the century).

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Jun 5, 2006
    #8
  9. Dene Wilby

    Auggie Guest

    "William Hughes" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:48:56 +1000, in alt.html Mark Parnell
    > <> wrote:
    > >Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, William Hughes
    > ><> declared in alt.html:
    > >
    > >> Hmm... looks like IFRAME is the only semi-reliable option at this
    > >> point.

    > >
    > >Preprocessing is always reliable and always available.

    >
    > True, but there are disk-space limitations to consider...


    Unless you are running the site off a 1.44 floppy there isn't.

    By preprocessing what he means is all your SSI and server side scripting
    would be compiled and HTML pages would be generated. This doesn't mean that
    image and media files used by the site are duplicated over and over again.

    HTML is raw ascii text, meaning that 1024 characters is 1KB... If all your
    HTML pages were exactly 80 characters wide you would need 13,000 lines of
    HTML to fill up 1MB
     
    Auggie, Jun 5, 2006
    #9
  10. On Mon, 05 Jun 2006 20:46:16 GMT, in alt.html "Auggie"
    <> wrote:
    >"William Hughes" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Mon, 5 Jun 2006 14:48:56 +1000, in alt.html Mark Parnell
    >> <> wrote:
    >> >Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, William Hughes
    >> ><> declared in alt.html:
    >> >
    >> >> Hmm... looks like IFRAME is the only semi-reliable option at this
    >> >> point.
    >> >
    >> >Preprocessing is always reliable and always available.

    >>
    >> True, but there are disk-space limitations to consider...

    >
    >Unless you are running the site off a 1.44 floppy there isn't.
    >
    >By preprocessing what he means is all your SSI and server side scripting
    >would be compiled and HTML pages would be generated. This doesn't mean that
    >image and media files used by the site are duplicated over and over again.


    I've been working with HTML for about 7 years. My programming degree
    is 16 years old (class of '90).

    >HTML is raw ascii text, meaning that 1024 characters is 1KB... If all your
    >HTML pages were exactly 80 characters wide you would need 13,000 lines of
    >HTML to fill up 1MB


    I have a 20mb limit on the personal webspace allocated by Grande. As
    it currently stands, my site runs in excess of 300 pages with the
    primary included file - the navigation system - taking approximately
    15k. 15k x 300 files = 4.5 meg, a not-inconsiderable amount.

    --
    William Hughes, San Antonio, Texas:
    The Carrier Project: http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/carrier.htm
     
    William Hughes, Jun 6, 2006
    #10
  11. Dene Wilby

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, William Hughes
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > primary included file - the navigation system - taking approximately
    > 15k.


    That's a huge file for nothing but a menu.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
    http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
     
    Mark Parnell, Jun 6, 2006
    #11
  12. On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:19:34 +1000, in alt.html Mark Parnell
    <> wrote:

    >Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, William Hughes
    ><> declared in alt.html:
    >
    >> primary included file - the navigation system - taking approximately
    >> 15k.

    >
    >That's a huge file for nothing but a menu.


    It's a big menu. See url below...

    --
    William Hughes, San Antonio, Texas:
    The Carrier Project: http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/carrier.htm
     
    William Hughes, Jun 6, 2006
    #12
  13. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed William Hughes
    <> writing in
    news::

    > On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:19:34 +1000, in alt.html Mark Parnell
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, William Hughes
    >><> declared in alt.html:
    >>
    >>> primary included file - the navigation system - taking approximately
    >>> 15k.

    >>
    >>That's a huge file for nothing but a menu.

    >
    > It's a big menu. See url below...
    >


    I would suggest shortening it, and using submenus. That's a lot for the
    user to have to wade through. You could use a breadcrumb trail so users
    don't get lost.


    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
     
    Adrienne Boswell, Jun 7, 2006
    #13
  14. On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 07:21:27 GMT, in alt.html Adrienne Boswell
    <> wrote:
    >Gazing into my crystal ball I observed William Hughes
    ><> writing in
    >news::
    >> On Tue, 6 Jun 2006 10:19:34 +1000, in alt.html Mark Parnell
    >><> wrote:
    >>>Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, William Hughes
    >>><> declared in alt.html:
    >>>
    >>>> primary included file - the navigation system - taking approximately
    >>>> 15k.
    >>>
    >>>That's a huge file for nothing but a menu.

    >>
    >> It's a big menu. See url below...

    >
    >I would suggest shortening it, and using submenus. That's a lot for the
    >user to have to wade through. You could use a breadcrumb trail so users
    >don't get lost.


    Breadcrumbs I got - the colored bars at the top of each page. I'm
    still debating whether or not to make them links, and maybe combine
    them into a single bar.

    As for submenus, I've thought about that as well. I'd like to avoid
    using java, which limits my options. I'm also trying to avoid forcing
    the user to have to click-through a number of pages; Home *click*
    World at War *click* Fleet Carriers *click* Essex-class *click* CV-9
    USS Essex.

    Perhaps combining them in some way with the breadcrumbs...

    (Some minutes later)

    I have set up several ideas at
    http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/cv09x.htm .
    See http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/cv09.htm for the same page
    without the new sections.

    Needless to say, these are rough ideas; there will be some tweaking
    involved before they are finished.

    Using any of these options seems to indicate the elimination of all
    but the top-level (boldface) lines from the main menu, which would
    also eliminate the additional scrolling area.

    There also seems to be a lot of repeated code included in any of these
    options, which involves the space penalty that I am trying to avoid in
    the first place. How about using IFRAME for the detailed section
    submenu at the bottom of the page? Also, how about moving the
    background image section from the left column to the submenu?

    These pages give some idea of what a completed page will look like,
    with content, images & references, but without the changes under
    discussion here:

    http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/cv01.htm
    http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/cv02class.htm
    http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/cv02.htm

    --
    William Hughes, San Antonio, Texas:
    The Carrier Project: http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/carrier.htm
     
    William Hughes, Jun 7, 2006
    #14
  15. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed William Hughes
    <> writing in news:6ghd82dg4c0qpuooq485l9c48bemn7b169
    @4ax.com:

    > Breadcrumbs I got - the colored bars at the top of each page. I'm
    > still debating whether or not to make them links, and maybe combine
    > them into a single bar.
    >
    > As for submenus, I've thought about that as well. I'd like to avoid
    > using java, which limits my options. I'm also trying to avoid forcing
    > the user to have to click-through a number of pages; Home *click*
    > World at War *click* Fleet Carriers *click* Essex-class *click* CV-9
    > USS Essex.
    >
    > Perhaps combining them in some way with the breadcrumbs...
    >
    > (Some minutes later)
    >
    > I have set up several ideas at
    > http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/cv09x.htm .
    > See http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/cv09.htm for the same page
    > without the new sections.
    >


    Have a look at <http://www.hfglendale.org/shea.asp>. Notice the menu on
    the left. It is a collapseable menu, no javascript required. The menu
    also gives a visual indication that you are on the that page in the menu.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
     
    Adrienne Boswell, Jun 7, 2006
    #15
  16. On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 14:45:11 GMT, in alt.html Adrienne Boswell
    <> wrote:

    >Have a look at <http://www.hfglendale.org/shea.asp>. Notice the menu on
    >the left. It is a collapseable menu, no javascript required. The menu
    >also gives a visual indication that you are on the that page in the menu.


    Mmm... might work. I'll have to do some research to see how something
    like that is done.

    --
    William Hughes, San Antonio, Texas:
    The Carrier Project: http://home.grandecom.net/~cvproj/carrier.htm
     
    William Hughes, Jun 7, 2006
    #16
  17. William Hughes wote:
    > On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 14:45:11 GMT, in alt.html Adrienne Boswell
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Have a look at <http://www.hfglendale.org/shea.asp>. Notice the menu on
    > >the left. It is a collapseable menu, no javascript required. The menu
    > >also gives a visual indication that you are on the that page in the menu.

    >
    > Mmm... might work. I'll have to do some research to see how something
    > like that is done.
    >


    View the source and the CSS. If you need it, I will share the server
    side stuff.
     
    Adrienne Boswell, Jun 7, 2006
    #17
  18. On 7 Jun 2006 14:11:41 -0700, in alt.html "Adrienne Boswell"
    <> wrote:
    >William Hughes wote:
    >> On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 14:45:11 GMT, in alt.html Adrienne Boswell
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Have a look at <http://www.hfglendale.org/shea.asp>. Notice the menu on
    >> >the left. It is a collapseable menu, no javascript required. The menu
    >> >also gives a visual indication that you are on the that page in the menu.

    >>
    >> Mmm... might work. I'll have to do some research to see how something
    >> like that is done.

    >
    >View the source and the CSS. If you need it, I will share the server
    >side stuff.


    Which CSS? A glance at the source of the page indicates about six. :)
    I got the page source and the style.css; I'll pick 'em apart this
    weekend.

    And while this idea may reduce screen space used, it seems it will
    only _increase_ the size of the menu file from the current 15k, which
    seems to be an issue.

    I'm interested in opinions regarding the inclusion of a
    section-specific submenu at the bottom of each page, as shown in the
    example page referenced a couple of messages upthread. One of the
    examples is written into the page itself; the other is an IFRAME file.
    I like the IFRAME, since the menu only needs to exist in a single
    file. The example shown uses DIVs; it could also be rendered as a
    two-cell table.

    --
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can let you rent it for a while...
     
    William Hughes, Jun 7, 2006
    #18
  19. On 7 Jun 2006 14:11:41 -0700, in alt.html "Adrienne Boswell"
    <> wrote:

    >View the source and the CSS. If you need it, I will share the server
    >side stuff.


    Oh, a couple of things I neglected to mention in my earlier reply:

    "Server side stuff"? If it involves any server-side activity, I can't
    use it. That's the source of my current problem; my ISP will not
    activate any server-side functions for personal webspace.

    Also, I noticed that selecting expand on your menu takes you to the
    top-level page for that section. I'm not sure that this is a good
    thing in my application. If I could expand without changing the page
    displayed, it might work. Like I said, I'll look at the code this
    weekend.
    --
    Money can't buy happiness, but it can let you rent it for a while...
     
    William Hughes, Jun 7, 2006
    #19
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