Frameset

[Paul W Smith]

Is it possible to join two frames together seamlessly?

I have a page with two fames on it, the page is split horizontally. I have
two tables, one on each frame and they line up. I have no frame border. I
have the bottom border on the top table and right left and bottom borders on
the lower table.

I cannot get this to look like one 'outlined' cell, I seem always to get a
one pixel blank where the frame split is.

Does anyone know a way to get rid of this?

 

[Chaddy2222]

Is it possible to join two frames together seamlessly?

I have a page with two fames on it, the page is split horizontally. I have
two tables, one on each frame and they line up. I have no frame border. I
have the bottom border on the top table and right left and bottom borders on
the lower table.

I cannot get this to look like one 'outlined' cell, I seem always to get a
one pixel blank where the frame split is.

Does anyone know a way to get rid of this?

Hmm. I would suggest dumping the frames as they are not good at all for
search engion opptomization.
Then just stick with a 2 colum table instead.
Alternativly if you want to use the frame. You could maybe set 0
boarders on the frameset.
That might work.

 

[Jake]

Hmm. I would suggest dumping the frames as they are not good at all for
search engion opptomization.

Interesting. Would you like to expand on that?

 

[Rob McAninch]

Jake>:

Interesting. Would you like to expand on that?

http://maps.google.com/search?q=search+engine+optimization+frames

A couple specific articles, check out the one from useIT.
http://searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/article.php/2167901
http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html

Actually, getting frames to be search engine friendly isn't so hard,
if you take the time to do it. The usability is still pretty awful
though just as that article from 1996 points out (although the
browsers in use have certainly changed).

I've seen some JavaScript that can make bookmarking work, or even a
server side method could do a similar job by passing parameters on
the URL and building the framesets programatically.

 

[Mark Simon]

Is it possible to join two frames together seamlessly?

I have a page with two fames on it, the page is split horizontally. I have
two tables, one on each frame and they line up. I have no frame border. I
have the bottom border on the top table and right left and bottom borders on
the lower table.

I cannot get this to look like one 'outlined' cell, I seem always to get a
one pixel blank where the frame split is.

Does anyone know a way to get rid of this?

Why are you using frames here? The whole purpose of frames is to allow
independent parts of the window, but it looks as if you're using frames
for positioning instead. Whay aren't you using one big table or divs
with absolute css positioning?

As regards frame borders, although most of the syntax of frames is
standard and W3C standardised, frame borders are not, and it is very
tricky fuse two frames together without some residual spaceing,
especially if you're trying to make it browser independent.

Mark

 

[Jake]

Jake>:

http://maps.google.com/search?q=search+engine+optimization+frames

A couple specific articles, check out the one from useIT.
http://searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/article.php/2167901

Nothing new here. Just standard 'good practice' coding as it's always
been ..

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html

"Since mainstream browsers still do not implement HTML 4.0 ....... "
;-)

Actually, getting frames to be search engine friendly isn't so hard, if
you take the time to do it.

Actually, getting frames to be search engine friendly is very easy
indeed. I was interested in seeing what the poster had discovered that
wasn't generally known.

The usability is still pretty awful though just as that article from
1996 points out (although the browsers in use have certainly changed).

Usability can be awful, good, and very good (just like all sites). It
depends very much on the design and the use it's put to.

I've seen some JavaScript that can make bookmarking work, or even a
server side method could do a similar job by passing parameters on the
URL and building the framesets programatically.

Regards.

 

[dorayme]

As regards frame borders, although most of the syntax of frames is
standard and W3C standardised, frame borders are not, and it is very
tricky fuse two frames together without some residual spaceing,
especially if you're trying to make it browser independent.

Yes, if I recall, you need to think carefully about the
background colours of the frames. If you go with all the same
(and white!), you stand the best chance. The space that some
browsers leave when you turn frame borders off can be defaulted
to white. (As TI once said, what's wrong with borders? They are
rather good in those situations where frames are at least prima
facie useful)

 

[Rob McAninch]

Jake>:

Actually, getting frames to be search engine friendly is very easy indeed.
I was interested in seeing what the poster had discovered that
wasn't generally known.

Well, the items that are generally known still aren't resolved do we
really need to find more problems? ;-)

Usability can be awful, good, and very good (just like all sites). It
depends very much on the design and the use it's put to.

Show me a framed site that has good usability (compared to a site
that doesn't use frames but similar amount of
information/interaction), I won't ask for "very good".

 

[Jake]

Jake>:

Well, the items that are generally known still aren't resolved do we
really need to find more problems? ;-)



Show me a framed site that has good usability (compared to a site that
doesn't use frames but similar amount of information/interaction), I
won't ask for "very good".

Alan Wood's site "Compendium of Pesticide Common Names" has always
seemed like an excellent example to me:

http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/index_cn_frame.html

 

[Rob McAninch]

Jake>:

In message <[email protected]>, Rob McAninch

Alan Wood's site "Compendium of Pesticide Common Names" has always
seemed like an excellent example to me:

http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/index_cn_frame.html

I can't bookmark anything, or 'easily' reference a given entry. Two
important and basic usability requirements for any web site;
especially one of a reference style. Of course I can make a direct
link to say:
http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/acethion.html
Or I try the 'no frames' link, but as soon as I navigate away I end
up back in the frames.

Consider:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A.html

For which there's also a framed version, but I can easily navigate
with either method and choose to forget the framed version exists if
I want, since it has the same inherent usability problems of any
framed site.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/frames.html

I forgot this page earlier in the thread (dolt!):
http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil

 

[Chaddy2222]

Well. What isn't generally known about frames.
That example you gave is not really a very good one. For example. In
FireFox. If you make the text bigger, as a person with loe vision, such
as myself would, by holding down the control key and pressing the +
sign. You will see that it doesn't re-size properly. So you would need
to scrole to read most of the content. If was not for the Meta Tags.
That site would not even appear in the SE's. It doesn't even show the
right frame in the source code. That is what the search bot sease when
it looks at the code. So you get hardly any content. Also, I doubt very
highly that a text only browser would be able to handle frames.
For more details you may want to read the artical I wrote on the
subject at:
http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc/design-tips1.html
I hope this helps.

 

[Alan Wood]

http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/index_cn_frame.html

That example you gave is not really a very good one. For example. In FireFox.
If you make the text bigger, by holding down the control key and pressing the +
sign. You will see that it doesn't re-size properly.

I consider this to be a design flaw in Firefox - I.E. resizes the text
in all frames simultaneously

If was not for the Meta Tags. That site would not even appear in the SE's.

My site is thoroughly indexed by the search engines, because it is
SE-friendly. I use links in <noframes> so that they can find all of
the content, and I also provide a pesticide classification (not framed)
that provides links to all of the data sheets.

As I have said before, I would be happy to ditch the frames if I could
find another way to provide the same functionality.

 

[Chaddy2222]

I consider this to be a design flaw in Firefox - I.E. resizes the text
in all frames simultaneously

Hmmm. Interesting point. I don't think the support for Frames in
FireFox is overly fantastic anyway. A lot of framed based pages won't
even work.

My site is thoroughly indexed by the search engines, because it is
SE-friendly. I use links in <noframes> so that they can find all of
the content, and I also provide a pesticide classification (not framed)
that provides links to all of the data sheets. That's good.

As I have said before, I would be happy to ditch the frames if I could
find another way to provide the same functionality.

Hmmm. Maybe a solution useing CSS would work. Or a table useing a php
include to update the navigation system.
I would even suggest useing some sort of CMS, but you would need one
that was customizable that validated properly.
That was one thing I did just notice about your site. It validates.

 

[Jake]

Jake>:

I can't bookmark anything, or 'easily' reference a given entry.

2 things:

(a) You can bookmark the context ...... if you're an IE user (and that's
9 out of 10 visitors): 'Favorites' --> 'Add to Favorites'. Other (more
recent) browsers don't consider this facility to be important enough to
be worth implementing.

(b) From a useability point of view, the bookmarking of a context on
this site isn't really going to save you anything, is it?

Two important and basic usability requirements for any web site;
especially one of a reference style.

As above.

Of course I can make a direct link to say:
http://www.hclrss.demon.co.uk/acethion.html
Indeed.

Or I try the 'no frames' link, but as soon as I navigate away I end up
back in the frames.

Consider:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A.html

For which there's also a framed version,

Yes -- the frames version is much easier to use (even if there's no

but I can easily navigate with either method and choose to forget the
framed version exists if I want, since it has the same inherent
usability problems of any framed site.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/frames.html

I forgot this page earlier in the thread (dolt!):
http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil

You haven't this time -- but you have forgotten to warn people to take
the batteries out of their bogosity meters before opening ;-)
Regards.

 

[Jake]

Well. What isn't generally known about frames.
That example you gave is not really a very good one. For example. In
FireFox. If you make the text bigger, as a person with loe vision, such
as myself would, by holding down the control key and pressing the +
sign. You will see that it doesn't re-size properly. So you would need
to scrole to read most of the content. If was not for the Meta Tags.
That site would not even appear in the SE's. It doesn't even show the
right frame in the source code. That is what the search bot sease when
it looks at the code. So you get hardly any content. Also, I doubt very
highly that a text only browser would be able to handle frames.

As Alan has already addressed this point adequately, I'll refrain from
doing so.

(BTW. Look at a frames-based site in Lynx if you want to see how a
text-only browser deals with one.)

For more details you may want to read the artical I wrote on the
subject at:
http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc/design-tips1.html

Well, that's really interesting.

I hope this helps.

Certainly makes you think, doesn't it ;-)

regards.

 

[Rob McAninch]

Jake>:

(a) You can bookmark the context ...... if you're an IE user (and that's
9 out of 10 visitors):

I currently see about 85% IE users in my server logs. So your
estimation may be close; but how many IE users are using IE because
they have no choice (my visitors are mostly U.S. based) in a work or
school environment? What happens if/when those environments make a
decision to go with a non WinIE browser?

With MacIE decommissioned and Mac dealing with Intel, Mac use will
rise (and this will be a non-IE rise in visitors.

(b) From a useability point of view, the bookmarking of a context on
this site isn't really going to save you anything, is it?

Yes, it would allow me to bookmark specific definitions. Of course I
can't easily link to a specific definition even if I decided to
browse your site with IE.

I forgot this page earlier in the thread (dolt!):
http://www.html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil

You haven't this time [...]

Did you read anything on that page? The methods to redesigning to be
more usable are in there. Mostly what it may amount to is a basic CMS.

A couple ideas would be to preprocess your site with Perl or the
like, essentially wrapping each definition page with the navigation
before uploading. Though I don't know that I would load the entire
index; perhaps just the current letter.

Or you could have the server generate and cache those pages on the
fly as they are requested, they can be cached for some predetermined
length of time (to reduce wasted processing) and you could include a
forced regeneration (or emptying of the cache) when you update a
definition.

In the end you would have 'traditional' pages without the frames and
you still only have to update your index and add definition pages as
you do currently.

 

[Mark Parnell]

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Rob McAninch

Did you read anything on that page?

Don't waste your time, Rob. Jake loves frames, and won't hear anything
against them - we've been over this many, many times.

 

[Chaddy2222]

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Rob McAninch


Don't waste your time, Rob. Jake loves frames, and won't hear anything
against them - we've been over this many, many times.

Hmmmmmmm. That's a bit of a worry. Considering Jakes willingness to
make sites that are accessible.

 

[Jake]

In message

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Rob McAninch


Don't waste your time, Rob. Jake loves frames, and won't hear anything
against them - we've been over this many, many times.

Wrong, my friend.

Nowhere will you see me recommend frames for general use.

(.... sits back and waits for MP to provide a reference to disprove that
statement.)

It's just that there's so many 'urban myths' out there that, when
repeated enough times, take on the permanence of fact.

Just trying to keep you honest.

Regards.

 

[Jake]

Hmmmmmmm. That's a bit of a worry.

Stop worrying.

Considering Jakes willingness to
make sites that are accessible.

Actually, a well-written frames-based site won't give you any
accessibility problems.

(... sits back and waits for someone to prove me wrong ...)

regards.