Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"

Discussion in 'Python' started by Tim Churches, Jan 2, 2005.

  1. Tim Churches

    Tim Churches Guest

    wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
    > meant for content oriented web apps.
    >
    > Is there something that can ease the development of application that
    > are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
    > APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
    > applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
    > normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
    > similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
    > problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
    > actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.


    Can you give some URL for publicly accessible examples of what you mean
    by a "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB APPLICATIONS", so we can get a better
    idea of what you mean?

    Tim C
    Tim Churches, Jan 2, 2005
    #1
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  2. Tim Churches

    Guest

    Hi,

    There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
    meant for content oriented web apps.

    Is there something that can ease the development of application that
    are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
    APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
    applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
    normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
    similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
    problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
    actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.

    But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
    for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
    high amount of user interaction etc.

    What I am asking here may sound off beat, but I think, in todays world
    where web based solutions offers such a flexibility, we really need it.

    I also know that I am to ambiguous, but as is the characteristic of
    this wonderful community, talks that start as most abigous, transform
    in crystal clear.

    PS: I am a web developer, using PHP for living. I have been playing
    with python for a while. I found python is really a cool language(do I
    need to say that ;-)) with a really, really impressive collection of
    modules and frameworks. While developing a school information system, I
    felt the need of such a framework that makes developing of "Non-Content
    Oriented Web-Apps" easy.

    I know I posted a similar message earlier, but this time I a bit more
    general.
    , Jan 2, 2005
    #2
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  3. Tim Churches

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Tim Churches <> writes:
    > Can you give some URL for publicly accessible examples of what you
    > mean by a "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB APPLICATIONS", so we can get a
    > better idea of what you mean?


    I don't think there was anything unclear about it. A spreadsheet
    might be a good example.
    Paul Rubin, Jan 2, 2005
    #3
  4. Tim Churches

    Nick Coghlan Guest

    wrote:
    > But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
    > for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
    > high amount of user interaction etc.


    Hmm, PJE's PEAK might be worth having a look at: http://peak.telecommunity.com/

    However, I'm not sure if that will provide enough of the 'web' side of things.

    Cheers,
    Nick.

    --
    Nick Coghlan | | Brisbane, Australia
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net
    Nick Coghlan, Jan 2, 2005
    #4
  5. Tim Churches

    Ian Bicking Guest

    wrote:
    > There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
    > meant for content oriented web apps.
    >
    > Is there something that can ease the development of application that
    > are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
    > APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them).


    Maybe you mean "interactive web applications", as opposed to
    "document-centric" applications? But then, that's what most frameworks
    are really designed for.

    > I mean the
    > applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
    > normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
    > similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
    > problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
    > actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.


    Zope I'd say is content-oriented, though with a bit of imagination you
    can phrase these applications in terms of "content". PHP and many other
    Python frameworks are process-oriented, meaning that each request just
    plain executes some code. Which is true of Zope too, but the basic
    metaphors in Zope are that a request displays the view of some object,
    which is a little more abstract way of looking at it.

    > But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
    > for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
    > high amount of user interaction etc.


    Do you mean non-traditional web applications, ala gmail? Probably not,
    I think you are talking about certain framework concerns that most
    frameworks aspire to in some fashion, but actually achieve to differing
    degrees. PEAK addresses some of these, but in a UI-neutral way, and
    it's quite experimental (at least in the perspective of a whole
    application; as robust as the individual pieces may be, there's no real
    model for how to use it for a full application).

    There's other form processing libraries, but they all are experimental
    in a way. I developed FormEncode, which relates to some of this. Zope
    3 has Schemas, which can be used for form generation and validation, and
    Plone has Archetypes. I don't think there's anything that's a Whole
    Package, but Zope 3 and Plone/Archetypes might be the closest (depending
    on what your vision is).

    > What I am asking here may sound off beat, but I think, in todays world
    > where web based solutions offers such a flexibility, we really need it.
    >
    > I also know that I am to ambiguous, but as is the characteristic of
    > this wonderful community, talks that start as most abigous, transform
    > in crystal clear.
    >
    > PS: I am a web developer, using PHP for living. I have been playing
    > with python for a while. I found python is really a cool language(do I
    > need to say that ;-)) with a really, really impressive collection of
    > modules and frameworks. While developing a school information system, I
    > felt the need of such a framework that makes developing of "Non-Content
    > Oriented Web-Apps" easy.


    Eh, it just needs some clear direction for *any* kind of web apps, IMHO.

    But with what you are specifically asking for, I think it's just a Hard
    Problem that Is Not Yet Solved, though there is work being done and
    people are attacking it from different directions.

    --
    Ian Bicking / / http://blog.ianbicking.org
    Ian Bicking, Jan 2, 2005
    #5
  6. On 1 Jan 2005 20:51:06 -0800, <> wrote:
    > But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
    > for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
    > high amount of user interaction etc.
    > <etc>


    Yeah, nevow, by those crazy twisted people, is great. The underlying
    concept is 'object publishing', and has some very funky technology for
    live-updating of a client-side web page via javascript (ala gmail).

    Object publishing is along the lines of, instead of having a 'form',
    you have an object which represents data. It knows how to handle form
    submissions, validate data, etc. And you 'publish' that object. The
    user can then interact with that object.

    Anyway, I haven't mucked around with nevow for months, you're better
    off checking out nevow.com and divmod.org yourself.

    Stephen.
    Stephen Thorne, Jan 2, 2005
    #6
  7. Tim Churches

    Sridhar Guest

    Sridhar, Jan 2, 2005
    #7
  8. Tim Churches

    Alan Gauld Guest

    On 1 Jan 2005 20:51:06 -0800, wrote:
    > Is there something that can ease the development of application that
    > are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
    > APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
    > applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
    > normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP




    I don;t know of any such frameworks.

    The Siebel CRM system may be the kind of thing you mean I think,
    but it uses standard technology. IT just puts up a form then uses
    client side Javascript to detect changes and send the data
    requests to/from the data server... No special frameworks as
    such...

    HTH,

    Alan G.
    Author of the Learn to Program website
    http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
    Alan Gauld, Jan 2, 2005
    #8
  9. Tim Churches

    Guest

    I have started a topic that is really vauge. I knew that this topic is
    very general and abstract but I think it turned out to be more general
    that I had expected.

    Let me make an attemp at defining "Non-Content Oriented Web
    Applications".

    A "Non-Content Oriented Web Application":
    (1) will be accessed from web browser(obviously).

    (2) will be developed using 'W3C' and other open standards(STRICTLY, to
    ensure compatibility and portablity).

    (3) will expose some kind of functionality to the user, not just some
    document to read.

    (4) functionality can be very simple to very complex.

    I sat down to define what I actually mean by "Non-Content Oriented Web
    Applications" with a fairly clear idea, But suddenly every thing
    vanished from my mind, "OH MY GOD, I AM OUT OF WORDS". I think all of
    you have been i such situation at least once. So please help me in
    defining these "Non-Content Oriented Web Applications". To give a
    example, I think GMAIL comes quite close to what I am talking aout.
    , Jan 2, 2005
    #9
  10. wrote:

    >I have started a topic that is really vauge. I knew that this topic is
    >very general and abstract but I think it turned out to be more general
    >that I had expected.
    >
    >Let me make an attemp at defining "Non-Content Oriented Web
    >Applications".
    >
    >A "Non-Content Oriented Web Application":
    >(1) will be accessed from web browser(obviously).
    >
    >(2) will be developed using 'W3C' and other open standards(STRICTLY, to
    >ensure compatibility and portablity).
    >
    >(3) will expose some kind of functionality to the user, not just some
    >document to read.
    >
    >(4) functionality can be very simple to very complex.
    >
    >I sat down to define what I actually mean by "Non-Content Oriented Web
    >Applications" with a fairly clear idea, But suddenly every thing
    >vanished from my mind, "OH MY GOD, I AM OUT OF WORDS". I think all of
    >you have been i such situation at least once. So please help me in
    >defining these "Non-Content Oriented Web Applications". To give a
    >example, I think GMAIL comes quite close to what I am talking aout.
    >
    >
    >

    Well,this is what we are working on,about point 2) 1) ~3) ~4) ,but I
    really don't think it has something strongly related with gmail.

    We are using nevow and rdf,mainly.Nevow for rendering pages,and rdf to
    build them on the fly.

    Probably,what I find related to your questions in this project is the
    open server ontology we are trying to build.

    Eventually ontologies and semantics have nothing to do with python core(
    :-(( ),but with a good scripting language it's easy to mix semantic net
    querying with pages ,rendering technical, nevow code.

    This way functionalities of the service are changed,and built during the
    service run,just adding triples to the semantic net and changing the
    contents sticked to its nodes.

    We hope to have code in the contents of the semantic net soon.This will
    allow to upload a piece of code ,some templates,together with the right
    metadatas in the semantic net
    and see the service implied running around in the pages which URI is
    matched by the pattern coded in the metadata of the service.

    It's not clear to me also,but this is how it works:using semantic
    matching(which can be very complex) to decide the interface to
    information pieces an URL renders.

    Last but not least,all the informations ,their logic and the rendering
    engine end functionalities(templates and their specific code),are
    distribuited as definition as the reside in the semantic net service.My
    poor english(and stoned mind).

    I hope I got something of your lost words,have fun and have a look at
    www.pytypus.org.

    Yours
    paolo_veronelli, Jan 2, 2005
    #10
  11. Tim Churches

    Guest

    Have a look a the new CherryPy (http://www.cherrypy.org).

    It allows developers to build web applications in much the same way
    they would build any other object-oriented Python program.
    This might corespond to what you're looking for.

    Remi.
    , Jan 3, 2005
    #11
  12. Tim Churches

    Guest

    Well, with your first post you managed to get a very unclear picture of
    what you mean by "non-content oriented Web Application" ;-)

    Judging from your following posts, you want an easy way to construct
    Web interfaces, i.e. forms. This can be done with any Web framework,
    but a typical Web framework provides a lots of content-related
    functionality
    you don't want. For instance you could use Plone for your task, but you
    would waste 99% of its functionality and it would be absolutely
    overkill.

    If I had to write a Web application such as Webmin, for instance, i.e.
    one that use a Web interface to manage other applications, I would
    use Quixote as my Web framework of choice. Its key points are
    simplicity and the fact that it provides *very little*. Just the form
    library would be enough for you. Since the different part of Quixote
    are well separated, the learning curve is really really small.

    It also takes a little time to evaluate it. I suggest you to give a
    look
    at it.


    Michele Simionato
    , Jan 4, 2005
    #12
  13. wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
    >meant for content oriented web apps.
    >
    >Is there something that can ease the development of application that
    >are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
    >APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
    >applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
    >normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
    >similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
    >problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
    >actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.
    >
    >But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
    >for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
    >high amount of user interaction etc.
    >
    >What I am asking here may sound off beat, but I think, in todays world
    >where web based solutions offers such a flexibility, we really need it.
    >
    >I also know that I am to ambiguous, but as is the characteristic of
    >this wonderful community, talks that start as most abigous, transform
    >in crystal clear.
    >
    >PS: I am a web developer, using PHP for living. I have been playing
    >with python for a while. I found python is really a cool language(do I
    >need to say that ;-)) with a really, really impressive collection of
    >modules and frameworks. While developing a school information system, I
    >felt the need of such a framework that makes developing of "Non-Content
    >Oriented Web-Apps" easy.
    >
    >I know I posted a similar message earlier, but this time I a bit more
    >general.
    >
    >
    >

    In pytypus everything is not content is metadata( a part from some of
    the code ,which part is useful for accessing informations) ,so my
    definition will simply be metadata oriented.
    paolo_veronelli, Jan 4, 2005
    #13
  14. <> wrote:

    > Moreover, I recently saw Dabo(http://www.dabodev.com/about), a
    > framework for developing 3 tier apps with Python and wxPython(and other
    > supported GUI toolkits). I have not tried it but I think something
    > similar, but for web-apps, is a close definition of "A Framework for
    > Non-Content Oriented Web Apps".


    Once you're on a multilayer track, whether the presentation is on the
    web or on some other UI should just be an issue for the very last layer
    (closest to the user). That's definitely how we did things at AB Strakt
    (www.strakt.com). Of course, the web-based presentation layer will be
    generally simpler/poorer than ones based on richer GUI toolkits -- as a
    compensation, it may more easily be "skinnable" by using CSS and the
    like, and it's way more easily _testable_ thanks to many good packages
    for webpage-generators testing.


    Alex
    Alex Martelli, Jan 4, 2005
    #14
  15. Tim Churches

    Guest

    -----------------------
    Well, I think a we can say that a framework for "Non Content Oriented
    Web Apps" is something that can help in
    (*) creating N tier data aware web applications
    (*) creating data-aware controls (forms etc.).
    (*) managing different data sources
    transparently(ZODB,MySQL,PostGreSQL, etc).
    (*) de-coupling UI, Business Logic and Data Sources from each other.
    (*) provide transaction management facilities(am I asking too much).
    -----------------------

    I think there is something more to the above points than just a
    construction of web interfaces like forms etc. I never said that it
    should be something really big(like Zope). I have looked at Quixote and
    is really cool. But I think we need something more than just a forms
    processing libary.

    Alext Martelli:
    >Once you're on a multilayer track, whether the presentation
    >is on the web or on some other UI should just be an
    >issue for the very last layer(closest to the user).


    I agree in an multi-tier application UI is the last layer issue, but
    the point here is that there should be some thing that can make
    connection of web controls to various data sources easy. Of course this
    is just UI issue of many others that are not UI issues.
    , Jan 5, 2005
    #15
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