free cad cooperation

Discussion in 'C++' started by Synk, Mar 24, 2007.

  1. Synk

    Synk Guest

    Hello everyone,



    I want to develop software to simulate machining of gears.

    I want to write this using c++, wx windows and opengl.

    I want to cooperate with CAD developers.



    I'm MSc Eng in Mechanical Engineering and some background in C++
    programming.



    I will have big problem with Boolean operation in 3D.



    Maybe somebody could help? Maybe there are open source libraries to do it?



    The best scenario would be to find somebody who develop open source CAD.

    Use some already made functions to manipulate 3D.

    If my project works, it could be implemented to this CAD with GPL license.

    There will be benefits for everybody. I will do my project.

    This CAD developed, by people who will help me, will receive new module.



    I hope somebody will answer.



    --

    Synk
    Synk, Mar 24, 2007
    #1
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  2. Synk

    Cliff Guest

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:45:41 +0100, "Synk" <> wrote:

    >Hello everyone,
    >
    >
    >
    >I want to develop software to simulate machining of gears.


    How so? WHY? Covering what processes & Physics?

    Good gears are usually *generated*.

    >I want to write this using c++, wx windows and opengl.


    Using what as geometric CAD or CAD/CAM entities, exactly?

    >I want to cooperate with CAD developers.
    >
    >
    >
    >I'm MSc Eng in Mechanical Engineering and some background in C++
    >programming.
    >
    >
    >
    >I will have big problem with Boolean operation in 3D.


    No doubt.

    >Maybe somebody could help? Maybe there are open source libraries to do it?


    Do what, exactly?
    Make pictures?

    >The best scenario would be to find somebody who develop open source CAD.
    >
    >Use some already made functions to manipulate 3D.
    >
    >If my project works, it could be implemented to this CAD with GPL license.
    >
    >There will be benefits for everybody. I will do my project.
    >
    >This CAD developed, by people who will help me, will receive new module.


    For 2D AutoCAD?

    >
    >I hope somebody will answer.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_computer-aided_design_software
    http://sourceforge.net/
    --
    Cliff
    Cliff, Mar 24, 2007
    #2
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  3. Synk

    Phlip Guest

    Synk wrote:

    > I want to develop software to simulate machining of gears.
    >
    > I want to write this using c++, wx windows and opengl.


    Why C++? Why not a soft language, such as Lua?

    > I want to cooperate with CAD developers.


    The cheap, efficient, and open-source end of all CAD research is in games.
    Games use soft scripting languages to plug objects together, they use
    sophisticated physics libraries to provide rigid objects undergoing
    geometric translations and rotations, and they all typically integrate to
    provide interactive editing and authoring systems.

    > I will have big problem with Boolean operation in 3D.


    One Tom Plunket once learned a development system called "test driven
    development" while writing a system to (IIRC) find the minimum set of
    triangles to cover a surface.

    Google for open source physics libraries, get the ones that come with unit
    tests, and you are almost there.

    --
    Phlip
    http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
    Phlip, Mar 24, 2007
    #3
  4. Synk

    Synk Guest

    Uzytkownik "Cliff" <> napisal w wiadomosci

    > How so? WHY? Covering what processes & Physics?
    >
    > Good gears are usually *generated*.


    I want to simulate machining of gears.
    I don't know yet if it will be simualtion of special method for example
    Gleason.
    The more methods will be implemented, the better aplication will be.


    >
    > Using what as geometric CAD or CAD/CAM entities, exactly?
    >


    I don't know yet. I wanted to use OpenGL. That's why I'm looking
    for libraries which manipulate in 3D.



    >>I will have big problem with Boolean operation in 3D.

    >
    > No doubt.


    That's why I want to implement knowlegde about gears and use
    libraries for boolean operations if such exist.
    The problem of Boolean operation in 3D is so wide that it could be
    the topic of doctor's thesis.

    >
    >>Maybe somebody could help? Maybe there are open source libraries to do it?

    >
    > Do what, exactly?
    > Make pictures?


    Too simulate process of machining.


    >>This CAD developed, by people who will help me, will receive new module.

    >
    > For 2D AutoCAD?
    >


    For 3D. There are many CAD's for 3D but they are usually comercial and
    expensive.

    --
    Synk
    Synk, Mar 24, 2007
    #4
  5. Synk

    Synk Guest

    U¿ytkownik "Phlip" <> napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
    news:c1dNh.9725$...
    > Synk wrote:
    >
    >> I want to develop software to simulate machining of gears.
    >>
    >> I want to write this using c++, wx windows and opengl.

    >
    > Why C++? Why not a soft language, such as Lua?


    What is Lua? It's first time I hear about it.
    I want the application which will work under Windows and Linux.

    >> I want to cooperate with CAD developers.

    >
    > The cheap, efficient, and open-source end of all CAD research is in games.
    > Games use soft scripting languages to plug objects together, they use
    > sophisticated physics libraries to provide rigid objects undergoing
    > geometric translations and rotations, and they all typically integrate to
    > provide interactive editing and authoring systems.


    Do you know some?
    Could you give examples?
    How can I find them?


    >
    >> I will have big problem with Boolean operation in 3D.

    >
    > One Tom Plunket once learned a development system called "test driven
    > development" while writing a system to (IIRC) find the minimum set of
    > triangles to cover a surface.
    >
    > Google for open source physics libraries, get the ones that come with unit
    > tests, and you are almost there.
    >


    I will try to find.
    Who is Tom Plunket? Do you know him?

    --
    Synk
    Synk, Mar 24, 2007
    #5
  6. Synk

    Phlip Guest

    Synk wrote:

    >>> I want to develop software to simulate machining of gears.


    Question: You don't want to simulate the gears rotating together, you want
    to simulate a machine grinding a gear out of a blank, right?

    Finite element analysis (the brute-force way to simulate interacting
    molecules) might be a little hard for the physics libraries involved.

    > What is Lua? It's first time I hear about it.


    Lua is a soft but efficient language. Advanced applications - especially
    games - typically use a soft language like Lua as their scripting, for all
    their highest level activities.

    > I want the application which will work under Windows and Linux.


    Hello, clue, that's up to you, no matter which technology you pick. Just
    don't pick anything by Microsoft or any of their cronies, and you will do
    fine!

    > Do you know some?
    > Could you give examples?
    > How can I find them?


    www.google.com knows all. Please never post without Googling first, and
    always refer to what you searched with Google, so we don't think you are
    asking us to do all the research!

    > Who is Tom Plunket? Do you know him?


    You can't have him - he's busy on a game right now. I mean if you google for
    his experience learning TDD for the 3D graphics in games, that will get you
    closer to understanding how TDD can help finite element simulation.

    --
    Phlip
    http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
    Phlip, Mar 24, 2007
    #6
  7. Synk

    Cliff Guest

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 17:15:52 GMT, "Phlip" <> wrote:

    >Synk wrote:
    >
    >> I want to develop software to simulate machining of gears.
    >>
    >> I want to write this using c++, wx windows and opengl.

    >
    >Why C++? Why not a soft language, such as Lua?
    >
    >> I want to cooperate with CAD developers.

    >
    >The cheap, efficient, and open-source end of all CAD research is in games.
    >Games use soft scripting languages to plug objects together,


    But need little precision or accuracy in so doing.

    >they use
    >sophisticated physics libraries to provide rigid objects undergoing
    >geometric translations and rotations,


    That's not sophisticated or even Physics.
    That's just a simple matrix operation (translation) with probably a
    4X4 matrix (very simple linear algebra).

    >and they all typically integrate to
    >provide interactive editing and authoring systems.


    They might even use large polygons to approximate
    analytic or NURBS surfaces ...

    BTW, I gather that graphics cards for games don't
    well support CAD or CAD/CAM applications so so
    code for gamers may not either.
    --
    Cliff
    Cliff, Mar 24, 2007
    #7
  8. Synk

    Cliff Guest

    Cliff, Mar 24, 2007
    #8
  9. Synk

    Phlip Guest

    Cliff wrote:

    >>The cheap, efficient, and open-source end of all CAD research is in games.
    >>Games use soft scripting languages to plug objects together,

    >
    > But need little precision or accuracy in so doing.


    You address game physics, not their scripting layers.

    Probably true. I would suppose that a physics engine could have a knob for
    its precision. You can set it to realtime and get very coarse, and set it to
    super-slow and get very high precision. Maybe not.

    I suggested game engines because there are indeed programming shops out
    there taking the tools invented for gaming and re-purposing them for
    industrial situations, such as visualizing machined parts.

    You might be correct that games would use a visualization system with much
    higher quality than their physics system!

    --
    Phlip
    http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
    Phlip, Mar 24, 2007
    #9
  10. Synk

    Cliff Guest

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 18:49:23 +0100, "Synk" <> wrote:

    >
    >Uzytkownik "Cliff" <> napisal w wiadomosci
    >
    >> How so? WHY? Covering what processes & Physics?
    >>
    >> Good gears are usually *generated*.

    >
    >I want to simulate machining of gears.
    >I don't know yet if it will be simualtion of special method for example
    >Gleason.
    >The more methods will be implemented, the better aplication will be.


    "Generated".

    >> Using what as geometric CAD or CAD/CAM entities, exactly?
    >>

    >
    >I don't know yet.


    You REALLY need to start with that consideration.
    What is possible?

    >I wanted to use OpenGL.


    "OpenGL's basic operation is to accept primitives such as points, lines and
    polygons, and convert them into pixels."

    You probably need geometric surfaces, not pixels or polygon
    approximations.

    >That's why I'm looking
    >for libraries which manipulate in 3D.


    ??

    >>>I will have big problem with Boolean operation in 3D.

    >>
    >> No doubt.

    >
    >That's why I want to implement knowlegde about gears and use
    >libraries for boolean operations if such exist.


    To do what, exactly?

    >The problem of Boolean operation in 3D is so wide that it could be
    >the topic of doctor's thesis.


    <Snort>.
    The solids modeling kernels .. ParaSolid, ACIS, etc.

    BREP geometry vs CSG too ...

    >>
    >>>Maybe somebody could help? Maybe there are open source libraries to do it?

    >>
    >> Do what, exactly?
    >> Make pictures?

    >
    >Too simulate process of machining.


    To "simulate" WHAT "process of machining"?

    Planning on a ball endmill with a 5+ axes milling machine?


    http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q="gear generation" &btnG=Search

    http://www.mech.uwa.edu.au/DANotes/gears/generation/generation.html

    >>>This CAD developed, by people who will help me, will receive new module.

    >>
    >> For 2D AutoCAD?
    >>

    >
    >For 3D. There are many CAD's for 3D but they are usually comercial and
    >expensive.


    So just for free 3D CAD?
    --
    Cliff
    Cliff, Mar 24, 2007
    #10
  11. Synk

    Cliff Guest

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:17:44 GMT, "Phlip" <> wrote:

    >Cliff wrote:
    >
    >>>The cheap, efficient, and open-source end of all CAD research is in games.
    >>>Games use soft scripting languages to plug objects together,

    >>
    >> But need little precision or accuracy in so doing.

    >
    >You address game physics, not their scripting layers.


    ??

    >Probably true. I would suppose that a physics engine could have a knob for
    >its precision. You can set it to realtime and get very coarse, and set it to
    >super-slow and get very high precision. Maybe not.


    The part is that bit of stock where the tool's envelope did not go.
    Parts are stock that holds the holes (& other features) apart.

    CAD & CAD/CAM surfaces & solids (solids are bounded by "faces"
    which are usually [perhaps trimmed] surfaces) in BREP models
    (contrasted with the now little-used CSG models).

    >I suggested game engines because there are indeed programming shops out
    >there taking the tools invented for gaming and re-purposing them for
    >industrial situations, such as visualizing machined parts.


    So all you want are a few pretty pixels?

    >You might be correct that games would use a visualization system with much
    >higher quality than their physics system!


    CAD & CAD/CAM systems are usually exact to the computational resolution
    of the hardware (& software). Surfaces & solids can be interpolated to almost
    such precision.
    Graphics stuff only need to be within only 1 or 3 pixels, at best, and
    is often generated (on the fly as it were) from the underlying CAD or
    CAD/CAM geometric model.

    How precise do you want to be? Why?
    --
    Cliff
    Cliff, Mar 24, 2007
    #11
  12. Synk

    lilburne Guest

    Phlip wrote:
    > Cliff wrote:
    >
    >>> The cheap, efficient, and open-source end of all CAD research is in games.
    >>> Games use soft scripting languages to plug objects together,

    >> But need little precision or accuracy in so doing.

    >
    > You address game physics, not their scripting layers.
    >
    > Probably true. I would suppose that a physics engine could have a knob for
    > its precision. You can set it to realtime and get very coarse, and set it to
    > super-slow and get very high precision. Maybe not.
    >
    > I suggested game engines because there are indeed programming shops out
    > there taking the tools invented for gaming and re-purposing them for
    > industrial situations, such as visualizing machined parts.
    >
    > You might be correct that games would use a visualization system with much
    > higher quality than their physics system!
    >


    Calculating cutting tool trajectories is normally carried out at the
    micron level or less. For simulation and graphic representation a 100
    microns of accuracy will suffice.

    Meshes might be used in both CAD/CAM and games, but in CAD/CAM such
    meshes are generated on the fly from the underlaying mathematical
    surface geometry. Such systems may generate two meshes, a coarse one for
    visualization, and a finer one for calculating the cutting tool
    trajectories.

    Of course one could also use the fine mesh for both visualization and
    analysis.

    However, boolean operations of surfaces is rarely done purely on meshes
    nowadays.
    lilburne, Mar 24, 2007
    #12
  13. Synk

    Cliff Guest

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:17:44 GMT, "Phlip" <> wrote:

    >You might be correct that games would use a visualization system with much
    >higher quality than their physics system!


    I misread that the first time, sorry.
    It's exactly the converse of what you stated.
    A one pixel size in a game might be a cubic meter or larger in 3D.
    With a CAD or CAD/CAM model surfaces are always the same .... precise
    to the undelying mathematics to the compute ability, usually.
    The images produced from them for display are in pixels (we used
    to have vector displays too ...)

    See IGES entity 128 <G>.
    --
    Cliff
    Cliff, Mar 24, 2007
    #13
  14. Synk

    Phlip Guest

    Cliff wrote:

    >>You might be correct that games would use a visualization system with much
    >>higher quality than their physics system!

    >
    > I misread that the first time, sorry.
    > It's exactly the converse of what you stated.


    "CAD requires much higher resolution" is exactly the converse of what I
    said?

    Ooookay....

    --
    Phlip
    http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
    Phlip, Mar 24, 2007
    #14
  15. Synk

    Cliff Guest

    On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 22:05:40 GMT, "Phlip" <> wrote:

    >Cliff wrote:
    >
    >>>You might be correct that games would use a visualization system with much
    >>>higher quality than their physics system!

    >>
    >> I misread that the first time, sorry.
    >> It's exactly the converse of what you stated.

    >
    >"CAD requires much higher resolution" is exactly the converse of what I
    >said?


    "games would use a visualization system with much higher quality"

    ??

    >Ooookay....

    --
    Cliff
    Cliff, Mar 25, 2007
    #15
  16. Synk

    Phlip Guest

    Cliff wrote:

    >>"CAD requires much higher resolution" is exactly the converse of what I
    >>said?

    >
    > "games would use a visualization system with much higher quality"


    A game project:

    - coarse physics, just enough so arrows fly on parabolas
    and characters don't drop thru pinholes

    - advanced graphics, so everything is shiny and dazzly

    A CAD project:

    - advanced physics, to design reliable hardware

    - coarse graphics; enough to visualize things

    --
    Phlip
    http://www.greencheese.us/ZeekLand <-- NOT a blog!!!
    Phlip, Mar 25, 2007
    #16
  17. Synk

    Cliff Guest

    On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 00:49:14 GMT, "Phlip" <> wrote:

    >Cliff wrote:
    >
    >>>"CAD requires much higher resolution" is exactly the converse of what I
    >>>said?

    >>
    >> "games would use a visualization system with much higher quality"

    >
    >A game project:
    >
    > - coarse physics, just enough so arrows fly on parabolas
    > and characters don't drop thru pinholes
    > - advanced graphics, so everything is shiny and dazzly


    http://solidworkspilot.com/

    >
    >A CAD project:
    >
    > - advanced physics, to design reliable hardware
    >
    > - coarse graphics; enough to visualize things


    http://solidworkspilot.com/

    Last I knew pixels were pixels and a monitor had M X N of them.

    BTW, You seem to be using the noise "physics" in two different
    contexts with two different meanings. Perhaps neither being
    accurate to the noise.

    Perhaps you were thinking computational tradeoffs for fast animation?


    http://www.rockwellcollins.com/about/additionalproducts/RCS/training/visual-products/index.html
    http://www.405themovie.com/Home.asp <g>.
    http://zoomquilt.org/
    --
    Cliff
    Cliff, Mar 25, 2007
    #17
  18. Synk

    Synk Guest

    U¿ytkownik "Dennis (Icarus)" napisa³
    >>
    >> >>I will have big problem with Boolean operation in 3D.
    >> >
    >> > No doubt.

    >>
    >> That's why I want to implement knowlegde about gears and use
    >> libraries for boolean operations if such exist.
    >> The problem of Boolean operation in 3D is so wide that it could be
    >> the topic of doctor's thesis.

    >
    > and has been, so look at
    > www.parasolid.com
    >


    Ok my question? Is it open source? I don't think because it's from UGS.
    I wan't be independent form commercial CAD's because they want to much money
    for their applications.
    That's why the task is so complicated.

    --
    Synk
    Synk, Mar 25, 2007
    #18
  19. "Synk" <> wrote in message
    news:eu3o97$isl$...
    >

    <snip>
    >
    >
    >
    > >>I will have big problem with Boolean operation in 3D.

    > >
    > > No doubt.

    >
    > That's why I want to implement knowlegde about gears and use
    > libraries for boolean operations if such exist.
    > The problem of Boolean operation in 3D is so wide that it could be
    > the topic of doctor's thesis.


    and has been, so look at
    www.parasolid.com

    <snip>

    Dennis
    Dennis \(Icarus\), Mar 25, 2007
    #19
  20. Synk

    Synk Guest

    U¿ytkownik "Phlip" <> napisa³:
    >
    > www.google.com knows all. Please never post without Googling first, and
    > always refer to what you searched with Google, so we don't think you are
    > asking us to do all the research!
    >


    I have made homework.
    I found to libraries that have boolean operations.
    http://www.opencascade.org/
    http://www.cgal.org/

    There are also many publications about computer 3D graphics at:

    http://www.siggraph.org/

    So now reading, reading and one more time reading ;)

    Does anybody, form you, used opencascade or cgal??

    --
    Synk
    Synk, Mar 25, 2007
    #20
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