From python-dev, space vs. tab controversy finally settled

Discussion in 'Python' started by Carl Banks, Apr 1, 2004.

  1. Carl Banks

    Carl Banks Guest

    Here's a summary of the final decision Guido made concerning how
    Python will indent code in the future, from python-dev:

    Guido had been planning to deprecate tabs in favor of spaces for
    awhile, although there have been good arguments for both tabs and
    spaces. But he was never really comfortable pulling the rug out from
    half the user base. However, today he finally decided on a compromise
    that has all the benefits of both spaces and tabs.

    His decision was predicated by the recent decision of the Unicode
    Consortium to allocate some new codes for special use in programming
    languages. The Consortium allocated codes for (among other things):
    several sets of left and right braces, several sets of quote
    characters, a couple universal comment markers, and several
    metacharacters for use in regular expressions.

    However, the code that influenced Guido was a special indent code.
    Here's how it works: at the beginning of the line, you put in one
    "indent character" for each level of indentation. Because Python will
    support Unicode fully by 3.0, Guido decided that this new Unicode
    character will be the one and only way to indent Python code.

    Now, I'm sure everyone's aware that Unicode is getting kind of full,
    and so, rather than allocating precious ununsed slots to the new
    programming characters, the Consortium decided reallocate some codes
    that had been rarely used. These codes fall in the range 0001 through
    001F, excepting 000A and 001A (all codes in hexadecimal). The new
    indent character has code 0009.

    So, you should start using Unicode character 0009 to indent right
    away. Python 2.4 will deprecate all indentation not using the new
    indent character, and Python 3.0 will not support any other
    indentation.


    --
    CARL BANKS http://www.aerojockey.com/software
    "If you believe in yourself, drink your school, stay on drugs, and
    don't do milk, you can get work."
    -- Parody of Mr. T from a Robert Smigel Cartoon
    Carl Banks, Apr 1, 2004
    #1
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  2. Carl Banks wrote:

    > Here's a summary of the final decision Guido made concerning how
    > Python will indent code in the future, from python-dev:
    >
    > Guido had been planning to deprecate tabs in favor of spaces for
    > awhile, although there have been good arguments for both tabs and
    > spaces. But he was never really comfortable pulling the rug out from
    > half the user base. However, today he finally decided on a compromise
    > that has all the benefits of both spaces and tabs.
    >
    > His decision was predicated by the recent decision of the Unicode
    > Consortium to allocate some new codes for special use in programming
    > languages. The Consortium allocated codes for (among other things):
    > several sets of left and right braces, several sets of quote
    > characters, a couple universal comment markers, and several
    > metacharacters for use in regular expressions.
    >
    > However, the code that influenced Guido was a special indent code.
    > Here's how it works: at the beginning of the line, you put in one
    > "indent character" for each level of indentation. Because Python will
    > support Unicode fully by 3.0, Guido decided that this new Unicode
    > character will be the one and only way to indent Python code.
    >
    > Now, I'm sure everyone's aware that Unicode is getting kind of full,
    > and so, rather than allocating precious ununsed slots to the new
    > programming characters, the Consortium decided reallocate some codes
    > that had been rarely used. These codes fall in the range 0001 through
    > 001F, excepting 000A and 001A (all codes in hexadecimal). The new
    > indent character has code 0009.
    >
    > So, you should start using Unicode character 0009 to indent right
    > away. Python 2.4 will deprecate all indentation not using the new
    > indent character, and Python 3.0 will not support any other
    > indentation.



    Great april fools joke, but no such conversation has gone on in
    Python-Dev in the last 3 months.

    Better luck next time.

    - Josiah
    Josiah Carlson, Apr 1, 2004
    #2
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  3. Heyho!

    Carl Banks wrote:
    > Here's a summary of the final decision Guido made concerning how
    > Python will indent code in the future, from python-dev:
    >
    > Guido had been planning to deprecate tabs in favor of spaces for
    > awhile, although there have been good arguments for both tabs and
    > spaces. But he was never really comfortable pulling the rug out from
    > half the user base. However, today he finally decided on a compromise
    > that has all the benefits of both spaces and tabs.
    >

    [...]

    > So, you should start using Unicode character 0009 to indent right
    > away. Python 2.4 will deprecate all indentation not using the new
    > indent character, and Python 3.0 will not support any other
    > indentation.
    >


    Nah, this sucks! This will be the death of Python! I'm switching to
    Whitespace: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/

    Stay Rude!
    Wolfram
    Wolfram Kraus, Apr 1, 2004
    #3
  4. Carl Banks

    Alan Kennedy Guest

    [Carl Banks]
    >> Here's a summary of the final decision Guido made concerning how
    >> Python will indent code in the future, from python-dev:
    >>
    >> [Nice April Fool spoof :) elided]


    [Josiah Carlson]
    > Great april fools joke, but no such conversation has gone on in
    > Python-Dev in the last 3 months.
    >
    > Better luck next time.


    Spoil-sport!

    You could have at least given it a few *minutes* to get some traction!

    --
    alan kennedy
    ------------------------------------------------------
    check http headers here: http://xhaus.com/headers
    email alan: http://xhaus.com/contact/alan
    Alan Kennedy, Apr 1, 2004
    #4
  5. Carl Banks

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Josiah Carlson wrote:

    > Carl Banks wrote:
    > [snip]
    > Great april fools joke, but no such conversation has gone on in
    > Python-Dev in the last 3 months.
    >
    > Better luck next time.
    >
    > - Josiah


    Yeah, thanks Josiah. Well all know how bright you are already though,
    and it's customary (though an unspoken custom, perhaps, until now) to
    chuckle quietly at such things and wait a while before posting, just to
    give an opportunity for the unwary ones to get sucked in for a while.

    Anyway, you forgot to point out that the *real* conclusion from the
    python-dev discussions was that Guido has finally decided that the
    space vs. tab wars will _never_ be won, and chooses explicit over
    implicit yet again. The indentation style for Python 3.0 (not 2.4)
    will be leading periods, since they make the indentation more obvious
    and thus avoid mistakes.

    -Peter
    Peter Hansen, Apr 1, 2004
    #5
  6. Josiah Carlson <> writes:

    > Great april fools joke, but no such conversation has gone on in
    > Python-Dev in the last 3 months.


    You just didn't get those mails.

    Cheers,
    mwh

    --
    > It might get my attention if you'd spin around in your chair,
    > spoke in tongues, and puked jets of green goblin goo.

    I can arrange for this. ;-) -- Barry Warsaw & Fred Drake
    Michael Hudson, Apr 1, 2004
    #6
  7. Carl Banks

    Andrew Dalke Guest

    Josiah Carlson:
    > Great april fools joke, but no such conversation has gone on in
    > Python-Dev in the last 3 months.


    You're right, there was a typo. It should have been python-internals.
    That started last fall because there was too much noise and riff-raff
    on python-dev.

    Andrew
    Andrew Dalke, Apr 1, 2004
    #7
  8. > Spoil-sport!
    >
    > You could have at least given it a few *minutes* to get some traction!


    It was right at the top for the last message I read last night. It was
    unlucky. Sorry to the original poster for ruining the joke so early.

    - Josiah
    Josiah Carlson, Apr 1, 2004
    #8
  9. > Yeah, thanks Josiah. Well all know how bright you are already though,
    > and it's customary (though an unspoken custom, perhaps, until now) to
    > chuckle quietly at such things and wait a while before posting, just to
    > give an opportunity for the unwary ones to get sucked in for a while.


    Yeah, I suppose I should try not to ruin the joke quite so soon next time.


    > Anyway, you forgot to point out that the *real* conclusion from the
    > python-dev discussions was that Guido has finally decided that the
    > space vs. tab wars will _never_ be won, and chooses explicit over
    > implicit yet again. The indentation style for Python 3.0 (not 2.4)
    > will be leading periods, since they make the indentation more obvious
    > and thus avoid mistakes.


    Now that is funny.


    If you want to see another good Python joke, I like this one:
    Python for Commodore 64.
    http://zephyrfalcon.org/weblog/arch_d7_2004_03_27.html#e536

    Not terribly believable, but still good.

    - Josiah
    Josiah Carlson, Apr 1, 2004
    #9
  10. Carl Banks

    Carl Banks Guest

    Wolfram Kraus wrote:
    >
    >
    > Heyho!
    >
    > Carl Banks wrote:
    >> Here's a summary of the final decision Guido made concerning how
    >> Python will indent code in the future, from python-dev:
    >>
    >> Guido had been planning to deprecate tabs in favor of spaces for
    >> awhile, although there have been good arguments for both tabs and
    >> spaces. But he was never really comfortable pulling the rug out from
    >> half the user base. However, today he finally decided on a compromise
    >> that has all the benefits of both spaces and tabs.
    >>

    > [...]
    >
    >> So, you should start using Unicode character 0009 to indent right
    >> away. Python 2.4 will deprecate all indentation not using the new
    >> indent character, and Python 3.0 will not support any other
    >> indentation.
    >>

    >
    > Nah, this sucks! This will be the death of Python! I'm switching to
    > Whitespace: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/


    You people are missing it. Look at what the new indent character is.
    (It's always funnier when you have to explain it.)


    --
    CARL BANKS http://www.aerojockey.com/software
    "If you believe in yourself, drink your school, stay on drugs, and
    don't do milk, you can get work."
    -- Parody of Mr. T from a Robert Smigel Cartoon
    Carl Banks, Apr 2, 2004
    #10
  11. Carl Banks

    Aahz Guest

    In article <ag6bc.4177$>,
    Carl Banks <> wrote:
    >Wolfram Kraus wrote:
    >> Carl Banks wrote:
    >>>
    >>> So, you should start using Unicode character 0009 to indent right
    >>> away. Python 2.4 will deprecate all indentation not using the new
    >>> indent character, and Python 3.0 will not support any other
    >>> indentation.

    >>
    >> Nah, this sucks! This will be the death of Python! I'm switching to
    >> Whitespace: http://compsoc.dur.ac.uk/whitespace/

    >
    >You people are missing it. Look at what the new indent character is.
    >(It's always funnier when you have to explain it.)


    You didn't check Wolfram's URL, did you?
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "usenet imitates usenet" --Darkhawk
    Aahz, Apr 2, 2004
    #11
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