future of C++

Discussion in 'C++' started by puzzlecracker, Apr 27, 2005.

  1. I was wondering what people think about the future (if any) for C++.
    How long do you think it will be marketable for and how would it market
    value stand against other powerhouses (!!!) such as Java or C#? Is
    there going to be another standardization? C++ is such a powerful
    language and its graduate descent to oblivion seem rather disturbing.

    Thanks,



    p.s. This is probably not the best group for such open-ended
    discussions, but it, in fact, has members who are qualified to express
    qualitative opinions, and not sure whether other groups have that.

    p.s. what are the forebodings for cs in general?
     
    puzzlecracker, Apr 27, 2005
    #1
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  2. puzzlecracker wrote:
    > I was wondering what people think about the future (if any) for C++.
    > How long do you think it will be marketable for and how would it market
    > value stand against other powerhouses (!!!) such as Java or C#? Is
    > there going to be another standardization? C++ is such a powerful
    > language and its graduate descent to oblivion seem rather disturbing.
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    >
    >
    > p.s. This is probably not the best group for such open-ended
    > discussions, but it, in fact, has members who are qualified to express
    > qualitative opinions, and not sure whether other groups have that.
    >
    > p.s. what are the forebodings for cs in general?




    With the advent of VC++ 2005, C++ becomes the systems programming language of .NET.


    Some references:

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/05/01/COptimizations/default.aspx

    http://pluralsight.com/blogs/hsutter/archive/2004/10/05/2672.aspx

    http://blogs.msdn.com/branbray/archive/2003/11/07/51007.aspx

    http://www.accu.org/conference/pres...Relevant_on_Modern_Environments_(keynote).pdf


    And a page of mine:

    http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys/cppcli.htm




    --
    Ioannis Vranos

    http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
     
    Ioannis Vranos, Apr 27, 2005
    #2
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  3. puzzlecracker

    Andre Kostur Guest

    "puzzlecracker" <> wrote in
    news::

    [snip usual flamebait comparing languages]

    This is off-topic for comp.lang.c++. Please take it to an advocacy group
    somewhere.
     
    Andre Kostur, Apr 27, 2005
    #3
  4. puzzlecracker wrote:
    > I was wondering what people think about the future (if any) for C++.
    > [...]


    I mean no offense, but...

    Have you actually even attempted to see what was said (written) on
    this subject already? I mean, if you care what people think, you
    might consider doing your research before starting the umpteenth
    "discussion" on that "subject"... Don't get me wrong, but I am a bit
    tired of reading this here every other month. If you have something
    to add, add it to the discussion that's already under way (and nobody
    closed any of the threads AFAIK). Otherwise it looks just waaaay too
    much like trolling.
     
    Victor Bazarov, Apr 27, 2005
    #4
  5. define trolling please
     
    puzzlecracker, Apr 27, 2005
    #5
  6. Victor Bazarov wrote:
    > puzzlecracker wrote:
    > > I was wondering what people think about the future (if any) for

    C++.
    > > [...]

    >
    > I mean no offense, but...
    >
    > Have you actually even attempted to see what was said (written) on
    > this subject already? I mean, if you care what people think, you
    > might consider doing your research before starting the umpteenth
    > "discussion" on that "subject"... Don't get me wrong, but I am a bit
    > tired of reading this here every other month. If you have something
    > to add, add it to the discussion that's already under way (and nobody
    > closed any of the threads AFAIK). Otherwise it looks just waaaay too
    > much like trolling.


    define trolling please
     
    puzzlecracker, Apr 27, 2005
    #6
  7. puzzlecracker wrote:
    > define trolling please


    Look it up on the Web please.
     
    Victor Bazarov, Apr 27, 2005
    #7
  8. puzzlecracker

    Alvin Guest

    puzzlecracker wrote:

    > I was wondering what people think about the future (if any) for C++.
    > How long do you think it will be marketable for and how would it market
    > value stand against other powerhouses (!!!) such as Java or C#? Is
    > there going to be another standardization? C++ is such a powerful
    > language and its graduate descent to oblivion seem rather disturbing.
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    >
    >
    > p.s. This is probably not the best group for such open-ended
    > discussions, but it, in fact, has members who are qualified to express
    > qualitative opinions, and not sure whether other groups have that.
    >
    > p.s. what are the forebodings for cs in general?


    Future of C++? Other powerhouses such as Java or C#? C# is a powerhouse?
    Wow! You have plenty of research still to do! You make plenty of empty,
    naive (or ignorant ... I'm not quite sure which one) statements. Do some
    more research and then come back.

    Oh, an answer to your other post "please define trolling", well Google is
    your friend: http://www.google.ca/search?q=define:trolling

    Alvin
     
    Alvin, Apr 27, 2005
    #8
  9. Alvin wrote:
    > puzzlecracker wrote:
    > [...]
    > Future of C++? Other powerhouses such as Java or C#? C# is a powerhouse?
    > Wow! [...]


    Please don't feed trolls.
     
    Victor Bazarov, Apr 27, 2005
    #9
  10. Ian McCulloch, Apr 28, 2005
    #10
  11. puzzlecracker

    Phlip Guest

    puzzlecracker wrote:

    > I was wondering what people think about the future (if any) for C++.


    In 2005, I say Ruby will replace C++.

    In 2000, MS said C# will replace C++.

    In 1995, Sun said Java will replace C++.

    In 1990, MS said VB will replace C++.

    In 1985, NeXT said Objective C will replace C.


    In 1980, PARC said Smalltalk will replace C.

    So, it looks like it's unanimous. C++ will be replaced!

    --
    Phlip
    http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
     
    Phlip, Apr 28, 2005
    #11
  12. puzzlecracker wrote:

    > I was wondering what people think about the future (if any) for C++.
    > How long do you think it will be marketable
    > for and how would it market value stand
    > against other powerhouses (!!!) such as Java or C#?
    > Is there going to be another standardization?
    > C++ is such a powerful language
    > and its gradual descent to oblivion seem rather disturbing.


    Bjarne Stroustrup discussed this briefly in a recent visit to our lab.
    There is *no* replacement for C++ on the horizon.

    Certainly, neither Java or C# can replace C++.
    You can't write practical operating systems, device drivers
    or real-time application programs in either Java or C#.
    You can't even implement a practical Java Virtual Machine in Java.

    Java was very carefully designed to simplify programming
    for most popular applications by sacrificing features
    that would allow it to be used as a truly general purpose
    computer programming language.

    C++, Java and C#
    are *not* the best computer programming language designs.
    The smalltalk computer programming language design
    was *much* better than Java which was "inspired" by smalltalk.
    The reasons why programmers do not use the *best*
    computer programming language are deeply embedded in human nature.
    Programmers, like all other human beings,
    more easily accept things that appear familiar to them.
    C programmers accepted C++ because it seemed to be like C.
    C++ programmers accepted Java because it seemed to be like C++.
    Java programmers accept C# because they are easily deceived.

    The only thing that disturbs me about Java
    is that there is no ANSI/ISO standard.
    This should set off alarm bells for any developer
    investing in durable libraries and applications.
    But, then, I have never seen any Java code
    that lasted for more than a few months
    before being rewritten or discarded.
     
    E. Robert Tisdale, Apr 28, 2005
    #12
  13. Actually, I was NOT asking the question in a troll's way...

    The company I work for is , not surprisingly, Java based, with some
    C#, and very very small (and to an extend trivial) C++.

    To me C++ is more of a hobby language - yet I always wanted to work
    with C++ professionally. And I was sincerely curious if it is
    worthwhile endeavor to still invest my time into it.....

    I apologize if this question, due to its repetitive nature, offended
    anyone.




    ..cracker.


    ps.. learned something new - troll
     
    puzzlecracker, Apr 28, 2005
    #13
  14. puzzlecracker wrote:

    > Actually, I was NOT asking the question in a troll's way...
    >
    > The company I work for is , not surprisingly, Java based, with some
    > C#, and very very small (and to an extend trivial) C++.
    >
    > To me C++ is more of a hobby language - yet I always wanted to work
    > with C++ professionally. And I was sincerely curious if it is
    > worthwhile endeavor to still invest my time into it.....
    >
    > I apologize if this question, due to its repetitive nature, offended
    > anyone.



    Did you see my reply on this?



    --
    Ioannis Vranos

    http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
     
    Ioannis Vranos, Apr 28, 2005
    #14
  15. puzzlecracker

    Phlip Guest

    puzzlecracker wrote:

    > Actually, I was NOT asking the question in a troll's way...


    The accusation of trolling deserves an easy boomerang effect.

    > The company I work for is , not surprisingly, Java based, with some
    > C#, and very very small (and to an extend trivial) C++.


    Great. They should be using a very-high level language with dynamic typing
    and block closures, like Ruby, and they should only use C++ for the fast
    stuff.

    Java is a pitiful attempt to copy C++'s OO model, without the stray pointers
    and overruns, but also without all the new improved techniques.

    > To me C++ is more of a hobby language - yet I always wanted to work
    > with C++ professionally. And I was sincerely curious if it is
    > worthwhile endeavor to still invest my time into it.....


    What's more important is you program as a hobby. That puts you above the 2%
    mark, among the Real Programmers. Now download and try to use every friggin
    language and system you can.

    Learning more C++ will not "waste neurons" or anything. But it may piss you
    off to some of Java's amazing shortcomings.

    --
    Phlip
    http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
     
    Phlip, Apr 28, 2005
    #15
  16. Phlip wrote:
    > puzzlecracker wrote:
    >
    > > Actually, I was NOT asking the question in a troll's way...

    >
    > The accusation of trolling deserves an easy boomerang effect.
    >
    > > The company I work for is , not surprisingly, Java based, with

    some
    > > C#, and very very small (and to an extend trivial) C++.

    >
    > Great. They should be using a very-high level language with dynamic

    typing
    > and block closures, like Ruby, and they should only use C++ for the

    fast
    > stuff.
    >
    > Java is a pitiful attempt to copy C++'s OO model, without the stray

    pointers
    > and overruns, but also without all the new improved techniques.
    >
    > > To me C++ is more of a hobby language - yet I always wanted to work
    > > with C++ professionally. And I was sincerely curious if it is
    > > worthwhile endeavor to still invest my time into it.....

    >
    > What's more important is you program as a hobby. That puts you above

    the 2%
    > mark, among the Real Programmers. Now download and try to use every

    friggin
    > language and system you can.
    >
    > Learning more C++ will not "waste neurons" or anything. But it may

    piss you
    > off to some of Java's amazing shortcomings.
    >
    > --
    > Phlip
    > http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand


    >Learning more C++ will not "waste neurons" or anything. But it may

    piss you
    > off to some of Java's amazing shortcomings.
    >


    cute
    - I have been with C++ since I turned 16.... but never made a buck off
    it....
    Java 5.0 is pretty good though... adding templates, autobocing seems
    promising.
     
    puzzlecracker, Apr 28, 2005
    #16
  17. puzzlecracker wrote:

    > - I have been with C++ since I turned 16....


    That's like saying "I've been bleeding since I turned 50"; it's meaningless
    unless you know how old I am.

    > but never made a buck
    > off it....


    Not surprised.

    Jonathan
     
    Jonathan Turkanis, Apr 28, 2005
    #17
  18. puzzlecracker

    Phlip Guest

    puzzlecracker wrote:

    > > Java is a pitiful attempt to copy C++'s OO model, without the stray
    > > pointers
    > > and overruns, but also without all the new improved techniques.


    > - I have been with C++ since I turned 16.... but never made a buck off
    > it....


    The best things in life are free... ;-)

    (However, the really hard sectors of some very sexy programming, such as
    game development, use C++ very well.)

    > Java 5.0 is pretty good though... adding templates, autobocing seems
    > promising.


    That's just the thing. Under the best kinds of dynamic typing, classes are
    objects. Passing classes, by name, into functions gives all the design
    benefits of templates, without the huge cognitive overhead of C++'s system.
    That's just a typesafe kind of macro expansion.

    --
    Phlip
    http://www.c2.com/cgi/wiki?ZeekLand
     
    Phlip, Apr 28, 2005
    #18
  19. Phlip wrote:

    > That's just the thing. Under the best kinds of dynamic typing, classes are
    > objects. Passing classes, by name, into functions gives all the design
    > benefits of templates, without the huge cognitive overhead of C++'s system.
    > That's just a typesafe kind of macro expansion.



    ISO C++ lacks many "convenient" features because one of its design ideals is space and
    run-time efficiency. However most/all of such features are provided by a system. An
    example is .NET features.


    An example in .NET is

    int x;

    String *p= x.ToString();

    for example.


    What is the benefit of having classes being objects? May you provide an example? Are you
    talking about RTTI?



    --
    Ioannis Vranos

    http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
     
    Ioannis Vranos, Apr 28, 2005
    #19
  20. Ioannis Vranos wrote:

    > ISO C++ lacks many "convenient" features because one of its design
    > ideals is space and run-time efficiency. However most/all of such
    > features are provided by


    any system that uses them.

    > An example is .NET features.
    >
    >
    > An example in .NET is
    >
    > int x;
    >
    > String *p= x.ToString();
    >
    > for example.
    >
    >
    > What is the benefit of having classes being objects? May you provide an
    > example? Are you talking about RTTI?




    --
    Ioannis Vranos

    http://www23.brinkster.com/noicys
     
    Ioannis Vranos, Apr 28, 2005
    #20
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