Fwd: [Python-Dev] Strawman decision: @decorator won't change

Discussion in 'Python' started by Peter Otten, Sep 16, 2004.

  1. Peter Otten

    Peter Otten Guest

    I took the freedom to forward GvR's mail concerning decorator cosmetics.
    I think you should know about it.

    Peter

    ---------- Forwarded Message ----------

    Subject: [Python-Dev] Strawman decision: @decorator won't change
    Date: Wednesday 15 September 2004 23:46
    From: Guido van Rossum <>
    To: Python-Dev <>

    Anthony Baxter asked me for a pronouncement on whether @decorator will
    change to use some other character instead; I kept this open as a
    possibility before 2.4b1 (which is tentatively scheduled for Oct 7th).
    Given the near-complete silence following my rejection of the J2
    alternative proposal, I don't expect there to be a massive popular
    movement to change the character, but I admit I haven't looked for
    responses outside python-dev.

    Let's plan on doing the following. If in the next 7 days there's no
    indication that some group of users wants to rally for a different
    character, the decision to keep @ is made final on Sept 23. To change
    the character, somebody will need to start rallying for a different
    character, and be able to show signs of significant support by that
    date.

    The definition of "significant support" is intentionally left open for
    interpretation, I'll review the evidence on the 23rd.

    --
    --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
    Peter Otten, Sep 16, 2004
    #1
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  2. Peter Otten

    Ville Vainio Guest

    >>>>> "Peter" == Peter Otten <> writes:

    Peter> Let's plan on doing the following. If in the next 7 days
    Peter> there's no indication that some group of users wants to
    Peter> rally for a different character, the decision to keep @ is
    Peter> made final on Sept 23. To change

    Are we going to have another vote? Do people still care enough to
    count?

    If so, here's my vote for '|' :).

    --
    Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
    Ville Vainio, Sep 16, 2004
    #2
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  3. Peter Otten wrote:
    > Anthony Baxter asked me for a pronouncement on whether @decorator will
    > change to use some other character instead; I kept this open as a


    And if will be pronounced
    - mouche (= french for beauty spot): if you like the syntax
    - wart: if you don't

    Daniel
    Daniel Dittmar, Sep 16, 2004
    #3
  4. On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:59:12 +0200, Peter Otten wrote:
    > Let's plan on doing the following. If in the next 7 days there's no
    > indication that some group of users wants to rally for a different
    > character, the decision to keep @ is made final on Sept 23. To change
    > the character, somebody will need to start rallying for a different
    > character, and be able to show signs of significant support by that
    > date.


    Hmmmm... what's the Unicode point for the Chinese ideogram closest in
    meaning to "decorator"? Combines all the advantages of "one character"
    with all the advantages of "descriptive keyword" all at once.

    What possible counter-arguments could be brought to bear?

    All-the-keywords-should-be-Unicode-Chinese-ly yrs,
    Jeremy Bowers
    Jeremy Bowers, Sep 16, 2004
    #4
  5. Peter Otten

    Andrew Dalke Guest

    Jeremy Bowers wrote:
    > What possible counter-arguments could be brought to bear?
    >
    > All-the-keywords-should-be-Unicode-Chinese-ly yrs,


    Traditional or simplified?

    :)

    Andrew
    Andrew Dalke, Sep 16, 2004
    #5
  6. On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:55:24 GMT, Andrew Dalke <> wrote:

    >Jeremy Bowers wrote:
    >> What possible counter-arguments could be brought to bear?
    >>
    >> All-the-keywords-should-be-Unicode-Chinese-ly yrs,

    >
    >Traditional or simplified?
    >
    > :)


    Is that a di-glyph suggestion? (IOW, why a _single_ character to replace '@' ?)

    Regards,
    Bengt Richter
    Bengt Richter, Sep 17, 2004
    #6
  7. On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 00:07:42 +0000, Bengt Richter wrote:
    > Is that a di-glyph suggestion? (IOW, why a _single_ character to replace '@' ?)


    Because that's what Guido is calling for.

    Given that this has been the majority of discussion on the topic, I'd
    hazard a guess that the '@' is going to stick. :)
    Jeremy Bowers, Sep 17, 2004
    #7
  8. Peter Otten

    Paul McGuire Guest

    Re: [Python-Dev] Strawman decision: @decorator won't change

    "Peter Otten" <> wrote in message
    news:cibkl1$395$07$-online.com...
    > I took the freedom to forward GvR's mail concerning decorator cosmetics.
    > I think you should know about it.
    >
    > Peter
    >

    Why? Sounds like the same rigged rules as before. Who wants to burn up any
    more cycles on this?

    I don't have a problem with GvR making his decisions about the language -
    it's his. I do have a problem with his asking for input, under terms that
    are so unlikely to permit that input to have any influence, and then patting
    himself on the back for polling the user community for their comments. And
    he wonders at the "near-complete silence following my rejection of J2"???
    (For that matter, why didn't Guido post this 7-day discussion period on
    c.l.py himself? Makes one wonder how seriously he really wants any more
    input.)

    Ultimately, this choice will boil down to Guido's own sense of esthetics.
    He has already dismissed/discounted arguments against '@' based on usage in
    other tools or language implementations. And there is little sense in
    trying to marshal argument and rhetoric on the
    etymology/semantics/verbalizations/human factors of '@' vs. '|' vs. '>>' or
    whatever - these go so far adrift into meta-space that they quickly lose
    focus on the original topic, and thereby reinforce GvR's impression that
    this discussion has no emerging consensus or coherence.

    I and many others have offered our feedback (i.e., complained) that '@' is
    an offense to the eye, a blot on Python's heretofore cleanness of syntax and
    form, and implicit readability. '@' doesn't *mean* anything. At least '|'
    brings a "pipe" semantic from Unix, or '^' evokes a "return" concept from
    Smalltalk, or '>>' the notion of "stream" from C++. When I see '@', the
    first thing I think of is e-mail, and the second thing I think of is an
    invoice ("20 widgets @ $0.25 = $5.00").

    So what? It all boils down to "I like 'X'", "Well, I like 'Y'", to "Thanks
    for your feedback, the answer is '@'."

    -- Paul
    Paul McGuire, Sep 17, 2004
    #8
  9. Peter Otten

    Arthur Guest

    Re: [Python-Dev] Strawman decision: @decorator won't change

    On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:28:52 GMT, "Paul McGuire"
    <._bogus_.com> wrote:

    >"Peter Otten" <> wrote in message
    >news:cibkl1$395$07$-online.com...
    >> I took the freedom to forward GvR's mail concerning decorator cosmetics.
    >> I think you should know about it.
    >>
    >> Peter
    >>

    >Why? Sounds like the same rigged rules as before. Who wants to burn up any
    >more cycles on this?


    snip

    >I and many others have offered our feedback (i.e., complained) that '@' is
    >an offense to the eye, a blot on Python's heretofore cleanness of syntax and
    >form, and implicit readability. '@' doesn't *mean* anything. At least '|'
    >brings a "pipe" semantic from Unix, or '^' evokes a "return" concept from
    >Smalltalk, or '>>' the notion of "stream" from C++. When I see '@', the
    >first thing I think of is e-mail, and the second thing I think of is an
    >invoice ("20 widgets @ $0.25 = $5.00").
    >
    >So what? It all boils down to "I like 'X'", "Well, I like 'Y'", to "Thanks
    >for your feedback, the answer is '@'."


    And were it opened for debate you would run into bizarre arguments in
    its defense. Like mine.

    That there a mechanism in Python described by a arbitrary word,
    "decorator" and provoked by an arbitrary symbol '@'

    The symbol *works*, as a sore thumb and a tacit admission of
    something,

    It is defended in this view by its anti-esthetic.

    Having to put up with this kind of argument in its defense is perhaps
    a good reason to not re-open the discussion.

    Art
    Arthur, Sep 17, 2004
    #9
  10. Peter Otten

    Paul McGuire Guest

    Re: [Python-Dev] Strawman decision: @decorator won't change

    "Arthur" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    <snip>
    > And were it opened for debate you would run into bizarre arguments in
    > its defense. Like mine.
    >

    Well, it *is* opened for debate, so knock yourself out. The more bizarre
    the better, I'd say.

    > That there a mechanism in Python described by a arbitrary word,
    > "decorator" and provoked by an arbitrary symbol '@'
    >
    > The symbol *works*, as a sore thumb and a tacit admission of
    > something,
    >

    Why do STOP signs say STOP? Why not put an arbitrary @ sign on them, and
    tell everyone it means STOP?

    Your argument is equally valid for *any* symbol. Why choose this ugly blot?
    This arbitrary symbology is the way of Perl and APL. I thought one of the
    beauties of Python was that it doesn't impose this kind of obtusity on the
    developer or maintainer.

    > It is defended in this view by its anti-esthetic.
    >

    Are you a Dada-ist? Is Python becoming the Dada language?
    (http://arthistory.about.com/cs/arthistory10one/a/dada.htm)

    > Having to put up with this kind of argument in its defense is perhaps
    > a good reason to not re-open the discussion.
    >

    This sounds like another way of saying "this is a silly argument, and we
    would be better off without it." The point is, just about *all* the
    arguments for this symbol or that will from here on *be* silly arguments.

    -- Paul
    ''Suppose someone were to assert: The gostak distims the doshes. You do
    not know what this means; nor do I. But if we assume that it is
    English, we know that 'the doshes are distimmed by the gostak'. We
    know too that 'one distimmer of doshes is a gostak' . If moreover,
    the 'doshes are galloons', we know that 'some galloons are distimmed
    by the gostak'. And so we may go on, and *so we often do go on.*''
    From "The Meaning of Meaning" by C.K.Ogden and I.A. Richards
    Paul McGuire, Sep 17, 2004
    #10
  11. Peter Otten

    Arthur Guest

    Re: [Python-Dev] Strawman decision: @decorator won't change

    On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:25:13 GMT, "Paul McGuire"
    <._bogus_.com> wrote:

    >"Arthur" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    ><snip>
    >> And were it opened for debate you would run into bizarre arguments in
    >> its defense. Like mine.
    >>

    >Well, it *is* opened for debate, so knock yourself out. The more bizarre
    >the better, I'd say.
    >
    >> That there a mechanism in Python described by a arbitrary word,
    >> "decorator" and provoked by an arbitrary symbol '@'
    >>
    >> The symbol *works*, as a sore thumb and a tacit admission of
    >> something,
    >>

    >Why do STOP signs say STOP? Why not put an arbitrary @ sign on them, and
    >tell everyone it means STOP?


    STOP means something. Its an English word with a meaning.

    "@" doesn't mean anything, and communicates the fact that it does not.
    It invokes electronics.

    And the word to describe the invocation "decorator" also means
    nothing.

    >
    >Your argument is equally valid for *any* symbol. Why choose this ugly blot?
    >This arbitrary symbology is the way of Perl and APL. I thought one of the
    >beauties of Python was that it doesn't impose this kind of obtusity on the
    >developer or maintainer.


    Its arbitrariness (and even its ugliness) is an admission of the fact
    that Python is not attempting to be purely not Perl and not APL. Or
    purely anyuthing else.

    >
    >> It is defended in this view by its anti-esthetic.
    >>

    >Are you a Dada-ist? Is Python becoming the Dada language?
    >(http://arthistory.about.com/cs/arthistory10one/a/dada.htm)


    Why not. Yes. I am. It always sounded like they were having fun. I am
    a neo-Dadaist.

    For today.

    >
    >> Having to put up with this kind of argument in its defense is perhaps
    >> a good reason to not re-open the discussion.
    >>

    >This sounds like another way of saying "this is a silly argument, and we
    >would be better off without it." The point is, just about *all* the
    >arguments for this symbol or that will from here on *be* silly arguments.


    There are much more cogent arguments, IMO, that we would be better off
    without the functionality - then that the symbol matters.

    I am Dadaist, or nihilist, on this one point. In that it just doesn't
    seem to matter. So yes, to the extent my attitude is prevalent, it
    would be difficult to work up a "movement" on the issue.

    If I thought it mattered, I vote for:

    ::

    as suggested by Pail Rubin.

    Art
    Arthur, Sep 17, 2004
    #11
  12. Peter Otten

    Peter Otten Guest

    Ville Vainio wrote:

    > Are we going to have another vote? Do people still care enough to
    > count?
    >
    > If so, here's my vote for '|' :).


    Seems you are the only voter, so '|' will be it.

    [Guido]
    'The definition of "significant support" is intentionally left open for
    interpretation, I'll review the evidence on the 23rd.'

    Well, 100% is as significant as it can get :)

    Peter
    Peter Otten, Sep 18, 2004
    #12
  13. Peter Otten

    Peter Otten Guest

    Daniel Dittmar wrote:

    > And if will be pronounced
    > - mouche (= french for beauty spot): if you like the syntax


    Mouche ou moche - c'est la question.

    But wait, that's not Dutch...

    Peter
    Peter Otten, Sep 18, 2004
    #13
  14. Peter Otten

    Peter Otten Guest

    Re: [Python-Dev] Strawman decision: @decorator won't change

    Paul McGuire wrote:

    > Who wants to burn up any more cycles on this?


    Only you and a certain neo-dadaist...

    Peter
    Peter Otten, Sep 18, 2004
    #14
  15. On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:10:16 +0200, Peter Otten wrote:
    > Seems you are the only voter, so '|' will be it.


    I'm going to vote for "ä¿®".

    According to http://www.asinah.net/cgi-bin/chinese/wordlook.cgi (look up
    "decorate" as "English - results in [either]", second result), it means
    "/to decorate/to embellish/to repair/to build/to study/to write/to
    cultivate/", which I think may actually cover 90%+ of the use cases in one
    word.

    The char in the quotes, which I bet most of you can't see, is "xiu1", the
    first ideogram in the image at
    http://chineseculture.about.com/library/symbol/np/nc_abbacy.htm .

    This char is Unicode point 0x70cb.

    Of course there are no technical issues with adding a Chinese ideogram
    into the core language. None whatsoever. Who could even think such a
    thing? We're all multicultural out the yin-yang and all our python files
    are always in UTF-8, all the time. (Who even needs the other Unicode
    encodings? Nobody, that's who.)

    It's the best choice. It's the ONLY choice. Choose "ä¿®".
    Jeremy Bowers, Sep 18, 2004
    #15
  16. Peter Otten

    Peter Otten Guest

    Jeremy Bowers wrote:

    > It's the best choice. It's the ONLY choice. Choose "?".


    I see you are striving for fame, so I suggest that you write a PEP that
    provides a unicode character for every keyword. It can be slated for
    adoption in the next year of the snake.

    Peter
    Peter Otten, Sep 18, 2004
    #16
  17. Peter Otten

    andresm Guest

    Peter Otten wrote:

    > I took the freedom to forward GvR's mail concerning decorator cosmetics.
    > I think you should know about it.
    >
    > Peter
    >
    > ---------- Forwarded Message ----------
    >
    > Subject: [Python-Dev] Strawman decision: @decorator won't change
    > Date: Wednesday 15 September 2004 23:46
    > From: Guido van Rossum <>
    > To: Python-Dev <>
    >
    > Anthony Baxter asked me for a pronouncement on whether @decorator will
    > change to use some other character instead; I kept this open as a
    > possibility before 2.4b1 (which is tentatively scheduled for Oct 7th).
    > Given the near-complete silence following my rejection of the J2
    > alternative proposal, I don't expect there to be a massive popular
    > movement to change the character, but I admit I haven't looked for
    > responses outside python-dev.
    >
    > Let's plan on doing the following. If in the next 7 days there's no
    > indication that some group of users wants to rally for a different
    > character, the decision to keep @ is made final on Sept 23. To change
    > the character, somebody will need to start rallying for a different
    > character, and be able to show signs of significant support by that
    > date.
    >
    > The definition of "significant support" is intentionally left open for
    > interpretation, I'll review the evidence on the 23rd.
    >
    > --
    > --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)
    >


    i realy like the @ sintax, i am a newbie , btw
    andresm, Sep 18, 2004
    #17
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