Getting Started in Programming & Scripting

[Bibby]

Hi, I'm interested in getting started in the programming world. I've dabbled
in C, C++ and VB6. Which would be the best language to focus my attention to
regarding the following considerations:

Hireability
Portability
Flexibility

The likely candidates seem to be Java, VB.Net, C, C++, C#.

Also, what would be the best scripting language to get started in? Maybe
something that's a subset of an above language? Maybe scripting is a good
way to get started in general?

Thanks,

PA

 

[Phlip]

Hi, I'm interested in getting started in the programming world. I've dabbled
in C, C++ and VB6. Which would be the best language to focus my attention to
regarding the following considerations:

Hireability
Portability
Flexibility

Flexibility will lead to the other two. Abject pursuit of hireability will
not bring happiness. You can't buy love (but you can often rent it).

The likely candidates seem to be Java, VB.Net, C, C++, C#.

Every language in that list, and in your list of newsgroups, sucks.

You need to learn to learn languages. Nobody should say "I'm a VB
programmer", like they would "I'm a Mormon" or "I'm a Vegan". Linguistic
monogamy is a dead end.

(Also, Java is no relation to JavaScript.)

Also, what would be the best scripting language to get started in? Maybe
something that's a subset of an above language? Maybe scripting is a good
way to get started in general?

You need to research two general categories: Open Source, and TDD. Get with
GNU, Linux, and SourceForge, download their projects, and futz with them.
See if you can get one to compile (an herculean effort), then tweak it to
add features. You will confront some of the toughest problems in
programming - both logical problems within the code, and logistic problems
deploying that code.

Next, observe that many projects typically don't have unit tests. The most
popular implementation technique today is debugging, and it is slow,
fragile, and the source of many bugs and delays. If you instead learn
Test-Driven Development, you can trade long hours of debugging for short
minutes writing tests. Many TDD projects simply never use the debugger, and
never need to. This will put you in the forefront of modern programming, and
boost your hireability.

 

[Rev. Karl E. Taylor]

Hi, I'm interested in getting started in the programming world. I've dabbled
in C, C++ and VB6. Which would be the best language to focus my attention to
regarding the following considerations:

Hireability
Portability
Flexibility

The likely candidates seem to be Java, VB.Net, C, C++, C#.

Also, what would be the best scripting language to get started in? Maybe
something that's a subset of an above language? Maybe scripting is a good
way to get started in general?

Thanks,

PA

In order, personal preference:

Tcl/Tk (script language)
Perl (script language)
Visual Studio (VB, VC, J#)
Java

I started Tcl/Tk, because I needed an easy scripting language, that
would also do GUI interfaces. Then moved up to Perl, and integrated
that with the ktinit for Tcl/Tk, for more advanced, GUI scripts. Wrote
several applications, of various sizes and complexity in VB and .NET,
and now I'm working with Java, in concert with Oracle and MySql databases.

Your mileage of course may vary.

 

[Paul Mesken]

Hi, I'm interested in getting started in the programming world. I've dabbled
in C, C++ and VB6. Which would be the best language to focus my attention to
regarding the following considerations:

Hireability
Portability
Flexibility

The likely candidates seem to be Java, VB.Net, C, C++, C#.

I would say C++. This also involves learning C (C++ is _almost_ a
superset of C). If you can do C++ then Java and C# won't pose much of
a problem. C++ can be used for OOP but also traditional, procedural
programming.

Also, what would be the best scripting language to get started in? Maybe
something that's a subset of an above language? Maybe scripting is a good
way to get started in general?

In my experience, the "scriptkiddies" do different things. They're
mostly used doing "web stuff". There's quite a substantial demand for
scriptkiddies (at least, where I live).

It all depends on what you want to do.

Note that a lot of applications (and websites) make use of a database.

Being able to program in SQL is helpfull (and knowledge about the
extensions offered by Oracle and MS SQL Server, MySQL is also popular
for websites).

Even though I, mostly, make applications in C++, most of my code is
actually SQL and resides on the DBMS as stored procedures. The
performance of such applications is more dependent on the design of
the DB and its SPs. This is normal, to have most of the "intelligence"
on the DBMS so that the client's interface is light weight and can be
easily changed or replaced. You don't have to be a genius to make
interfaces and the language hardly matters performance-wise,
especially since there are so many components taking care of stuff
(charts, reports, etc.). But it is important to be a very good
database designer.

Note also that not only a language(s) is demanded by employers but
also a specific development platform (like, for Windoze, MS Visual C++
or MS Visual Studio.net with its multiple languages, Borland Builder
seems to be less popular). These development platforms offer certain
components that a developer needs to be able to use.

But it is best to get the standard language down first. I would say
that C++ is the best choice and SQL as well, unless you want to stay
clear from database applications.

 

[Mick Sharpe]

I'd recommend getting to grips with Java first. The design of the language
is very clean and you will not need to worry about pointer exceptions (no
pointers) or memory management (automatic garbage collection). Excellent
development environments such as Eclipse and NetBeans are also available for
Java.

C++, however, is very messy and has a much steeper learning curve owing to
its more complex facilities such as multiple inheritance; plus the hassle of
manual memory management and those pesky pointer exceptions.

Python and Ruby are two modern scripting languages, again with very clean
designs and fully object-oriented. If you want to do scripting for web
sites, PHP is still a popular and perfectly acceptable choice.

 

[Chris Dutton]

Python and Ruby are two modern scripting languages, again with very clean
designs and fully object-oriented.

I'd like to second the suggestion for Ruby. It's really a fantastic
language, and the concepts map well to those in "grown-up" languages
like Java and C# well (at least superficially).

 

[ben]

Just pick any of them and half way down the learning you know how to learn
the others, literally.

ben

 

[Steve Gerrard]

Hi, I'm interested in getting started in the programming world. I've dabbled
in C, C++ and VB6. Which would be the best language to focus my attention to
regarding the following considerations:

Hireability
Portability
Flexibility

The likely candidates seem to be Java, VB.Net, C, C++, C#.

Also, what would be the best scripting language to get started in? Maybe
something that's a subset of an above language? Maybe scripting is a good way
to get started in general?

What sort of programming? You've said the equivalent of "I want to learn a
trade." Any idea what?
Consider these areas of the "programming world":

Animated Movies
Digital Signal Processing
Server Database Systems
Commercial Web Sites
Excel Macros
Artificial Intelligence
Anti-Spyware Programs
3D Internet Games
Server Management Tools
Device Drivers
Enterprise Resource Management
Streaming Video Players

Obviously there are many more. Which languages, platforms, and environments you
look into depends on what sort of programming you want to do.

 

[Tim Johnson]

I'd recommend getting to grips with Java first. The design of the language
is very clean and you will not need to worry about pointer exceptions (no
pointers) or memory management (automatic garbage collection). Excellent
development environments such as Eclipse and NetBeans are also available for
Java.

C++, however, is very messy and has a much steeper learning curve owing to
its more complex facilities such as multiple inheritance; plus the hassle of
manual memory management and those pesky pointer exceptions.

Python and Ruby are two modern scripting languages, again with very clean
designs and fully object-oriented. If you want to do scripting for web
sites, PHP is still a popular and perfectly acceptable choice.

I concur re C++ (ol C dog here) I use python and rebol for most web
programming. Rebol runs rings around python in terms of rebol code being
more productive than python code - but python has more libraries and a
larger user base that tends to thoroughly test the libraries and (from
my experience) scales better than rebol for large projects. Python is
very thoughtfully designed Object-wise. And there is a market for python
programmers, if you must seek employment.

But the main thing is to be adaptable. For instance, I use elisp to
customize my editor (emacs), use my editor to write rebol code that when
executed, produces python code, which when executed produces javascript
and mysql code.

My apologies to other "ol C dogs" - my unbiased opinion. Those header
files with object defs in them can be a real pain in the rear.

tim

 

[Mark F. Haigh]

Hi, I'm interested in getting started in the programming world. I've dabbled
in C, C++ and VB6. Which would be the best language to focus my attention to
regarding the following considerations:

Hireability
Portability
Flexibility

<snip>

Hireability varies as geographical locations change. What's in demand
in Chicago is different than what's in demand in Silicon Valley. Look
at your local job listings.

The likely candidates seem to be Java, VB.Net, C, C++, C#.

Also, what would be the best scripting language to get started in? Maybe
something that's a subset of an above language? Maybe scripting is a good
way to get started in general?

Skip C and C++ until you're familiar enough with programming to know
what you're getting yourself into. You're right: scripting is a
perfect way to get started, so pick one and get coding.


Mark F. Haigh
(e-mail address removed)

 

[Malcolm]

I'd recommend getting to grips with Java first. The design of the language
is very clean and you will not need to worry about pointer exceptions (no
pointers) or memory management (automatic garbage collection). Excellent
development environments such as Eclipse and NetBeans are also available
for
Java.

Java is a good choice for first language.
Really it comes down to the question of whether pointers or object
orientation is more confusing for the beginner. My own view is that even
experienced programmers often get into a mess trying to do object-oriented
design, and effecive use of objects cannot be taught in a few days.
Pointers, on the other hand, can be grasped in a few days, but only if the
beginner has the right mindset.

The other advantage of Java is that the GUI is standard. Whilst basically a
good thing, this does have the disadvantage from the learner's point of view
that it is easy to get too ambitious too soon.

So my recommendation would be C. However I'm posting from comp.lang.c

 

[Francis Glassborow]

Java is a good choice for first language.

Maybe, but my feeling is that it gets less so with every release. 'Java
in a Nutshell' 5th edition has over 1200 pages.

The second problem I have with Java as a first language is that it
heavily constrains the choice of programming paradigms. Such restriction
often results in difficulties with learning other languages. Quick,
visually attractive toy programs may give the student a sense of
achievement (actually that is important) but it can act as a hindrance
to long term progress.

 

[Francis Glassborow]

Just pick any of them and half way down the learning you know how to learn
the others, literally.

I wish it were that simple. A great deal of bad C has been written by
those who learnt Pascal as their first language. There is a lot to be
said for NOT protecting students from the consequences of lack of
understanding.

 

[Phlip]

Mick Sharpe wrote:

I'd like to second the suggestion for Ruby. It's really a fantastic
language, and the concepts map well to those in "grown-up" languages
like Java and C# well (at least superficially).

No way. Ruby will spoil you, and make returning to those languages
miserable.

 

[Billy Patton]

Hi, I'm interested in getting started in the programming world. I've dabbled
in C, C++ and VB6. Which would be the best language to focus my attention to
regarding the following considerations:

Hireability
Portability
Flexibility

The likely candidates seem to be Java, VB.Net, C, C++, C#.

Also, what would be the best scripting language to get started in? Maybe
something that's a subset of an above language? Maybe scripting is a good
way to get started in general?

Thanks,

PA

As one who has nevery done any web programming, I can speak as only a hard core
unix programmer. Learning just language should NEVER be your goal.
A person I workd for for @ 17 years, told me "When you don't know where to
start, just start until you figure out where you need to start".

So if you interested in programming in one of the languages above, flip a coin?


___ _ ____ ___ __ __
/ _ )(_) / /_ __ / _ \___ _/ /_/ /____ ___
/ _ / / / / // / / ___/ _ `/ __/ __/ _ \/ _ \
/____/_/_/_/\_, / /_/ \_,_/\__/\__/\___/_//_/
/___/
Texas Instruments ASIC Circuit Design Methodology Group
Dallas, Texas, 214-480-4455, (e-mail address removed)

 

[Scott Moore]

My recommendation would be:

Stop crossposting to every group in creation. Please.

 

[Bibby]

Hey Guys, I really appreciate everyones input - it's really helping me out.
I haven't fully decided where to go yet but I'm leaning towards Javascript
and VB (just for starters). You'll, hopefully be hearing more from me on my
journey and I can't wait for the day when I'll have some helpful advice for
another newbie.

Great community.

PA

 

[Bibby]

What would be your suggestion then, if not Java? Which starting language
would serve a newbie well on a quest to master many?

PA

 

[Bibby]

No offence intended (crossposting), just needed input from varying
backgrounds - it's proven really helpful.

PA

 

[Peter Julian]

Hey Guys, I really appreciate everyones input - it's really helping me out.
I haven't fully decided where to go yet but I'm leaning towards Javascript
and VB (just for starters). You'll, hopefully be hearing more from me on my
journey and I can't wait for the day when I'll have some helpful advice for
another newbie.

Great community.

PA

Those 2 languages, JavaScript and VB, are the only 2 i would discourage a
newbie to delve into. Specially VB, which in my opinion is not a language
but a mind-corrupting scripting system.