Going beyond HTML / CSS?

[M]

I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
school kid is capable of that these days.

What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?

Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've made a
few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I don't really want
to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a hobbyist hoping to make a
few bucks while enjoying myself.

Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth my
while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP? Flash?
Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to spend a lot of
time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.

One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site. Later
he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a good start
I guess.

Feedback? Suggestions?

M

 

[mrcakey]

I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
school kid is capable of that these days.

What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?

Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've made a
few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I don't really
want to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a hobbyist hoping to
make a few bucks while enjoying myself.

Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth my
while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP? Flash?
Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to spend a lot of
time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.

One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site. Later
he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a good
start I guess.

Feedback? Suggestions?

Both the guestbook and the credit card thing lend themselves to PHP/MySQL.
They're reasonably easy to learn and free.

+mrcakey

 

[Neredbojias]

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 31 Jul 2007 16:09:58
GMT M scribed:

I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every
high school kid is capable of that these days.

What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next
level?

Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've
made a few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I
don't really want to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a
hobbyist hoping to make a few bucks while enjoying myself.

Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth
my while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP?
Flash? Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to
spend a lot of time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.

One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site.
Later he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a
good start I guess.

Feedback? Suggestions?

I'd say learn php and maybe a little mysql (database). Making a _secure_
cc transaction thingy might be a little ambitious for a hobbyist, though.

 

[SAZ]

I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
school kid is capable of that these days.

What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?

Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've made a
few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I don't really want
to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a hobbyist hoping to make a
few bucks while enjoying myself.

Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth my
while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP? Flash?
Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to spend a lot of
time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.

One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site. Later
he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a good start
I guess.

Feedback? Suggestions?

M

Don't worry about Flash, but you can't go wrong by learning some
javascript, PHP and mysql.

 

[lee whitbeck]

Don't worry about Flash, but you can't go wrong by learning some
javascript, PHP and mysql.

Also, you may want to review some open source CMS systems such as
joomla or drupal. They come with existing components that may be of
interest to you.

 

[David Segall]

I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
school kid is capable of that these days.

What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?

Someone will likely respond "depends on what you want to do." I've made a
few bucks here and there designing sites for friends but I don't really want
to pursue this as a full-time thing. I'm more of a hobbyist hoping to make a
few bucks while enjoying myself.

Based on that qualifier, what would "pay" for itself to make it worth my
while adding to my repertoire. Server-side stuff like Perl or PHP? Flash?
Javascript? Since I am just a hobbyist I also don't want to spend a lot of
time on this so "ease of learnability" is a factor.

One friend would like to have a guest book-type feature on his site. Later
he also wants to allow credit card transactions. That would be a good start
I guess.

Feedback? Suggestions?

Are you a "computer programmer" or a "graphic artist" at heart. The
web needs both but the I think your next level depends on how you see
yourself.

If you lean to programming then there are some tools that make the
first steps much easier. See
<http://www.profectus.com.au/ee_webdevelopment.html>.

 

[Andy Dingley]

I'm okay at designing "brochure" style websites -- essentially every high
school kid is capable of that these days.

Likewise PHP

What would be the next best thing to learn to take it to the next level?

Why? From interest, or because you want a job doing it?

PHP is simple and useful. It's also a ghastly language and will teach
you evil coding habits that make you almost unusable for any real
software development afterwards!

More to the point, every teenager and their dog is writing (bad) PHP
these days and there are no good jobs in it. You can certainly get
such a job, but it's a minimum wage sort of role and you're thrown
into a vast pit of undistinguished crappy-coders. There's no reward to
being any better than this, you just won't get recognised for it.

If you _are_ a good PHP coder who knows enough to do good work with
it, then you're in a tiny minority. You're also likely to have to go
and work as your own bespoke complete-service web shop (not even
contract or freelance), because it's the only way to distinguish
yourself from the muppets.


If you can find hosting for it (not impossible, but harder than PHP),
Python or even Ruby are far nicer languages than PHP. If you control
the server yourself (maybe you host over home broadband) then this is
easy. They (especially Python) also teach far better coding style.

Perl is obsolete. Use Python instead.

 

[Tim Streater]

Likewise PHP


Why? From interest, or because you want a job doing it?

PHP is simple and useful. It's also a ghastly language and will teach
you evil coding habits that make you almost unusable for any real
software development afterwards!

Look, I can write FORTRAN in any language

More seriously, why do you have that view?

[snip]

If you can find hosting for it (not impossible, but harder than PHP),
Python or even Ruby are far nicer languages than PHP. If you control
the server yourself (maybe you host over home broadband) then this is
easy. They (especially Python) also teach far better coding style.

Perl is obsolete. Use Python instead.

What specifically about those languages would you say enforces better
coding style (specially as "better" is somewhat subjective)? I would
agree that PERL might, as it encourages unreadable regexps.

 

[SAZ]

On 31 Jul, 17:09, "M" <[email protected]> wrote:

PHP is simple and useful. It's also a ghastly language and will teach
you evil coding habits that make you almost unusable for any real
software development afterwards!

More to the point, every teenager and their dog is writing (bad) PHP
these days and there are no good jobs in it. You can certainly get
such a job, but it's a minimum wage sort of role and you're thrown
into a vast pit of undistinguished crappy-coders. There's no reward to
being any better than this, you just won't get recognised for it.

If you _are_ a good PHP coder who knows enough to do good work with
it, then you're in a tiny minority. You're also likely to have to go
and work as your own bespoke complete-service web shop (not even
contract or freelance), because it's the only way to distinguish
yourself from the muppets.

What? PHP is a minimum wage job? A halfway decent PHP coder can
command $40/hour or more as a freelancer. I love PHP jobs. They are
typically 20 - 30 hour projects and I get $60/hour with no problem.

 

[Andy Dingley]

What? PHP is a minimum wage job? A halfway decent PHP coder can
command $40/hour or more as a freelancer. I love PHP jobs. They are
typically 20 - 30 hour projects and I get $60/hour with no problem.

If you're happy with $40/hour, then good luck to you.


How much does simple low-end HTML from Dreamweaver pay locally?

How much does halfway competent Java pay?

Of these two figures, which one is the PHP rate closer to?


I'm not disputing the existence of good PHP jobs, just that they're
rare. The majority of the roles (certainly in the UK) regard PHP as
being at the bottom of the skills hierarchy, not the top. Most PHP
coders _do_ only have minimal skills: it's the sort of easy-access
platform which is accessible to people who don't need or want to take
things any further than that. However that does foster an image
(incorrecltly) that PHP can _only_ deserve low-end rates. It's the old
problem in IT recruitment: matching buzzwords is easy, judging personal
skills is hard.

 

[SAZ]

If you're happy with $40/hour, then good luck to you.


How much does simple low-end HTML from Dreamweaver pay locally?

How much does halfway competent Java pay?

Of these two figures, which one is the PHP rate closer to?


I'm not disputing the existence of good PHP jobs, just that they're
rare. The majority of the roles (certainly in the UK) regard PHP as
being at the bottom of the skills hierarchy, not the top. Most PHP
coders _do_ only have minimal skills: it's the sort of easy-access
platform which is accessible to people who don't need or want to take
things any further than that. However that does foster an image
(incorrecltly) that PHP can _only_ deserve low-end rates. It's the old
problem in IT recruitment: matching buzzwords is easy, judging personal
skills is hard.

It's very different in the US. As I said, I get $60/hour for PHP.
$40/hour is at the low end, but if you keep busy $40/hour can add up to
around US $83,000 per year - not a bad salary in any country.

I live in the Chicago area, and straight HTML and Dreamweaver pays in
the $40 - 50 range. Java is around $60 - 75, so I can safely say that
PHP is right in the middle.

 

[El Kabong]

If you're happy with $40/hour, then good luck to you.


How much does simple low-end HTML from Dreamweaver pay locally?

How much does halfway competent Java pay?

Of these two figures, which one is the PHP rate closer to?

The $40/hour vs. $60/hour vs. $120/hour fluctuation makes perfect sense to
me.

If I hire someone to do work by the hour at top scale, I expect them to have
top journeyman skills, which translates into "productivity". If they are
still learning the skills, achieving the same level of productivity will
demand a lower hourly rate.

The old joke, "I know what I'm worth but I won't work that cheap," may be
applicable to Web design/programming at times.

AFAIC, ColdFusion (an "almost" programming language) is by far the easiest
to learn, using HTML-like tag elements and seemingly intended for entry
level Web programmers. However, it's not free and hosting can be costly due
to Adobe's extortionistic server pricing, (close to $8,000 for the latest
Enterprise version. Perhaps they want to discourage its use so they can
discontinue it.) If I hadn't started out with CF 10 years ago, there's no
way I would jump into it today. I would learn PHP instead and if I ever have
some time to kill, I will be learning it.

El

 

[El Kabong]

AFAIC, ColdFusion (an "almost" programming language) is by far the easiest
to learn, using HTML-like tag elements and seemingly intended for entry
level Web programmers. However, it's not free and hosting can be costly
due to Adobe's extortionistic server pricing, (close to $8,000 for the
latest Enterprise version. Perhaps they want to discourage its use so they
can discontinue it.) If I hadn't started out with CF 10 years ago, there's
no way I would jump into it today. I would learn PHP instead and if I ever
have some time to kill, I will be learning it.

BTW, The main reason I stay with CF is the convenience of the ColdFusion
Studio. Can anyone recommend of a comparable environment for PHP that
doesn't cost a fortune?

El

 

[Andy Dingley]

BTW, The main reason I stay with CF is the convenience of the ColdFusion
Studio. Can anyone recommend of a comparable environment for PHP that
doesn't cost a fortune?

I've never done it, but the Eclipse IDE is free, excellent, _not_ just
limited to Java (as is often claimed) and it seems to have the necessary
plugins for every language I've ever thrown at it. Whatever it needs,
someone out there has already built it.