In message <
[email protected]>, Lauri
I did say 'AT' UA, but anyway:
Let's take a typical(?) 'framed site' to address your points (using IE
as the browser):
So, lets ignore the orginal question...
http://www.odas.org.uk/ (I'm sure you could think of others, but this
will do to test keyboard navigation.).
This is ugly hack that has one 100% frame, with other, frame inside.
First noframe content links to other *frameset*
Page also has all most problems said in URLs I give you. My arguments
were for properly made frames site. I don't know any frames site that is
done well, so I can't point one to you.
(I have Lynx installed, but almost never use it .... so I can't really
comment except to say that last time I tried it I didn't seem to find
any part of a framed site inaccessible. Obviously not the easiest
combination of browser/site to work with ... but we're talking pretty
much 'bargain-basement' here.)
Well, it is not inaccessible. The point is not that something is
inaccessible, but that something is less accessible than something else.
Actually, navigation is quite easy from a keyboard. I can move focus
from links on one frame (menu) to links on another (main) with the
'tab' key.
Maybe. In opera, only spatial navigation is as easy as normally.
Findinline and normal next/previous link is needs frame to be focused.
I can scroll the main page using Home/End/ and the arrow
keys.
And if the navigation needs scrolling too. For example if font size
required is twice as big? After all, that happens on 15" and 1600*1200
displays. Those are quite popular on high end laptops. And of course
people with nonperfect eye sight.
I can go to another main page with 'return'.
And how do you scroll right frame?
Have you found anything on the odas site that you can't access by
keyboard?
I can find several things I am not able to do to navigate there. I can
navigate anywhere, but it is much harder.
For example, to get links link on normal page, I ca access it by typing
<ctr + contextmenu> l i n <enter>
On this page, I need either to focus right frame first, or use spatial
navigation. As I don't remember the key to change frame I can't do that
easily, and spatial navigation don't work.
Also, as focus happens to be on main frame after loading, A and Q keys
seems to not work as next/previous link function as usually.
Scrolling? Use the arrow keys.
I'm not sure that I completely understand your other point. Maybe the
user should consider using an assistive technology UA?
Well, that doesn't help, as you use frames, and so need to find correct
frame at some point. For person needing 10cm letters, it will take some
time to find right frame (even if they were named sencibly: in case of
odas, they are called leftframe and mainframe.)
I've just printed a page without difficulty.
Again, your argument is "Works for me, must be accessible"
I've just saved a page for offline use.
I did not say it is impossible.
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".........I have changed my opinion somewhat: people who really know
what they are doing can sometimes use frames to good effect, ....." ;-)
But none of which addresses accessibility.
You seem to use entirely your own meaning for word accessibility.
Maybe. But I'm not sure how that reflects on accessibility.
Accessibility is more than usability. If something has lousy usability,
it also has bad accessibility. Good usablilty can sometimes have bad
accessibility, but extremily rarely other way around.
If you do know of software that will read the text on images being
displayed on a browser screen, then I'd be interested in hearing about
it. Do you know what it's called?
No. But blind person cuould save image, use OCR, replace image in
webpage. Would not be hard to build such thing. The point is that it
makes no sence, as accessible website would include alt-text.
Not sure I take your point.
The point is that almost nothing in internet is totally inaccessible. The
point is weather something is accessible easily enaugh to be useful
<img SRC="xxx.xxx" ALT="FOO" > ........ all AT UA's will speak 'FOO',
will they not?
Good thing. You finally got something. Same with frames, all browsers
work perfectly fine whitout them.
Accessibility is about everybody, not about modern AT users.
And with your new example. It actually uses nested framesets.
Shouldn't be a problem with a well-designed frames-based site.
Of course. That is because such things don't exist.
Quite possibly. But I remain to be convinced that there's a sizable
population of visually impaired people accessing the www with a talking
Lynx ....... assuming that it's possible ;-)
Accessibility is not about sizable populations
Have you ever tried navigating a 'sensibly'-framed site with a modern
assistive technology reader? You might care to try it sometime.
Well again need of that fucking advanced technology reader. The
accessibility is not only for totally blind. Persons with slight vision
problems also want to access pages.
I think you have never actually read all those articles about frames all
over net.
Or maybe you just don't know any modern browser (I see you did use tab
for keyboard navigation).
Ignorance of tools is one problem in accessibility. There lots of people
that can't read small text out there that don't know what to do when IEs
font size thingy don't work.
