Good Sites - who's got some examples?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Nicolai P. Zwar, Oct 4, 2003.

  1. Okay, there's a lot to be criticized in many major websites; overuse of
    Flash, excessive and unnecessary table layout, inaccessibility problems,
    proprietary tags disabling the use of a site for visitors with other
    browsers, pop up windows, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera... We read
    about a lot of such sites here.

    But let's take a look at the other side of the coin for a moment. I'd be
    interested in what the regulars here consider "good" sites. But, and
    here comes the rub, I do not mean mere dry text deserts or well
    functioning and accessible sites that are well programmed but plain and
    boring to look at, no, I'm wondering what are some of the better "big"
    sites, sites that depend heavily on design and features, multimedia
    sites, web shops. So I'm not looking for something like
    http://www.w3.org/ , which is a great and easy to navigate resource site
    for Web developers, but not particularly exciting in terms of multimedia
    design.

    Who's got some examples for "good" multimedia sites, sites that maybe
    provide some clever examples for intelligent incorporation of Flash, or
    sites that have complex shopping cart/credit card systems à la
    amazon.com, yet are tightly and well programmed, sites with gimmicks,
    such as but not limited to (or mandatory to be included) pop ups, *.mpeg
    movies, tables, JavaScript effects, and whatever, sites with extras and
    features, but that are put to good use and not so much annoying, in
    short, good examples for
    multimedia-anything-goes-wowie-does-that-look-good! sites, whether they
    are commercial or not, that are good examples for "bells and whistles"
    sites. Totally subjective opinions welcome.

    --
    Nicolai Zwar
    http://www.nicolaizwar.com
    Nicolai P. Zwar, Oct 4, 2003
    #1
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  2. Nicolai P. Zwar

    PeterMcC Guest

    Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
    > Okay, there's a lot to be criticized in many major websites; overuse
    > of Flash, excessive and unnecessary table layout, inaccessibility
    > problems, proprietary tags disabling the use of a site for visitors
    > with other browsers, pop up windows, et cetera, et cetera, et
    > cetera... We read about a lot of such sites here.
    >
    > But let's take a look at the other side of the coin for a moment. I'd
    > be interested in what the regulars here consider "good" sites. But,
    > and here comes the rub, I do not mean mere dry text deserts or well
    > functioning and accessible sites that are well programmed but plain
    > and boring to look at, no, I'm wondering what are some of the better
    > "big" sites, sites that depend heavily on design and features,
    > multimedia sites, web shops. So I'm not looking for something like
    > http://www.w3.org/ , which is a great and easy to navigate resource
    > site for Web developers, but not particularly exciting in terms of
    > multimedia design.
    >
    > Who's got some examples for "good" multimedia sites, sites that maybe
    > provide some clever examples for intelligent incorporation of Flash,
    > or sites that have complex shopping cart/credit card systems à la
    > amazon.com, yet are tightly and well programmed, sites with gimmicks,
    > such as but not limited to (or mandatory to be included) pop ups,
    > *.mpeg movies, tables, JavaScript effects, and whatever, sites with
    > extras and features, but that are put to good use and not so much
    > annoying, in short, good examples for
    > multimedia-anything-goes-wowie-does-that-look-good! sites, whether
    > they are commercial or not, that are good examples for "bells and
    > whistles" sites. Totally subjective opinions welcome.


    A fair range at:
    http://coolhomepages.com/

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
    PeterMcC, Oct 4, 2003
    #2
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  3. "Nicolai P. Zwar" <> wrote in message
    news:blmki4$fa$...
    > Okay, there's a lot to be criticized in many major websites; overuse of
    > Flash, excessive and unnecessary table layout, inaccessibility problems,
    > proprietary tags disabling the use of a site for visitors with other
    > browsers, pop up windows, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera... We read
    > about a lot of such sites here.
    >
    > But let's take a look at the other side of the coin for a moment. I'd be
    > interested in what the regulars here consider "good" sites. But, and
    > here comes the rub, I do not mean mere dry text deserts or well
    > functioning and accessible sites that are well programmed but plain and
    > boring to look at, no, I'm wondering what are some of the better "big"
    > sites, sites that depend heavily on design and features, multimedia
    > sites, web shops. So I'm not looking for something like
    > http://www.w3.org/ , which is a great and easy to navigate resource site
    > for Web developers, but not particularly exciting in terms of multimedia
    > design.
    >
    > Who's got some examples for "good" multimedia sites, sites that maybe
    > provide some clever examples for intelligent incorporation of Flash, or
    > sites that have complex shopping cart/credit card systems à la
    > amazon.com, yet are tightly and well programmed, sites with gimmicks,
    > such as but not limited to (or mandatory to be included) pop ups, *.mpeg
    > movies, tables, JavaScript effects, and whatever, sites with extras and
    > features, but that are put to good use and not so much annoying, in
    > short, good examples for
    > multimedia-anything-goes-wowie-does-that-look-good! sites, whether they
    > are commercial or not, that are good examples for "bells and whistles"
    > sites. Totally subjective opinions welcome.
    >


    Data from the largest research companies on earth (Forrester, Gartner,
    Raddon) indicate clearly that the majority of web users (around 70%) use the
    Web for "Information", not entertainment.
    As such, a "good" website would be designed to be informed above all else.
    Multimedia would be used as a supplement for the information on the site,
    not *as* the information.

    --
    Karl Core

    At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not
    cease to be insipid.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    eightninethree AT eightninethree.com
    EightNineThree, Oct 4, 2003
    #3
  4. In article <blmnnb$5lk$>, says

    <snipped>
    > a "good" website would be designed to be informed above all else.
    > Multimedia would be used as a supplement for the information on the site,
    > not *as* the information.


    I'll second that!

    Earlier this week I needed to buy a new washing machine. Among the ones I
    was interested in was a Zanussi but I wanted to check out the spec in
    more detail than was provided on the retailers website. Naturally I went
    to -

    www.zanussi.co.uk

    - only to be met with the most patronising message I've ever come across
    informimg me that for the privilege of viewing their website I would have
    to change my browser to either IE or Netcape. Opera 7.11 wasn't good
    enough for them. Interestingly the message recommends IE5.5 and Netscape
    4.77! I decided that Zanussi wasn't good enough for me and have now
    ordered a different make of machine.

    Who do these web designers think they are?

    Outraged, Edinburgh.

    aka
    --
    Michaelangelo
    Michaelangelo, Oct 4, 2003
    #4
  5. EightNineThree wrote:


    > Data from the largest research companies on earth (Forrester, Gartner,
    > Raddon) indicate clearly that the majority of web users (around 70%) use the
    > Web for "Information", not entertainment.


    Undoubtedly so, but keep in mind why that is so and how to interpret
    those statistics: it's because practically _every_ web user uses the web
    for information (or do you know somebody who doesn't? Are there really
    30% who _don't_ use the web for information at all? I doubt it.), while
    only _some_ web users use it to download movies, only _some_ web users
    use it to do online banking, only _some_ users use it to watch movie
    trailers, only _some_ users use it to do shopping for CDs, books,
    furniture, only _some_ users use it to sell stuff at eBay, and so on.


    > As such, a "good" website would be designed to be informed above all else.
    > Multimedia would be used as a supplement for the information on the site,
    > not *as* the information.


    Yes, I would tend to agree, though in some cases the multimedia part may
    _be_ the information. But anyway, that's exactly why I asked this
    question. It's pretty much a given mantra in this group that "multimedia
    should be used as a supplement and not as the main thing" and so on, so
    there is no need to repeat it here again. Many examples of what is
    considered good coding have been provided (which is of course to be
    expected in an HTML group frequented by many hard core coders). I am
    basically just curious about what some of the regulars here would
    consider WOWIE! examples for _design_. You know, matters of taste for
    once, though you are of course free and even encouraged to chose only
    sites that meet the requirements of your own coding and web philosophy.
    You have now _defined_ what you consider a "good" website, which is
    good, but I'm curious about an actual existing example of such a site,
    perhaps, as you suggested, a site that intelligently uses multimedia
    parts as a supplement for the information?

    --
    Nicolai Zwar
    http://www.nicolaizwar.com
    Nicolai P. Zwar, Oct 4, 2003
    #5
  6. Michaelangelo wrote:

    > I'll second that!
    >
    > Earlier this week I needed to buy a new washing machine. Among the ones I
    > was interested in was a Zanussi but I wanted to check out the spec in
    > more detail than was provided on the retailers website. Naturally I went
    > to -
    >
    > www.zanussi.co.uk
    >
    > - only to be met with the most patronising message I've ever come across
    > informimg me that for the privilege of viewing their website I would have
    > to change my browser to either IE or Netcape. Opera 7.11 wasn't good
    > enough for them. Interestingly the message recommends IE5.5 and Netscape
    > 4.77! I decided that Zanussi wasn't good enough for me and have now
    > ordered a different make of machine.
    >
    > Who do these web designers think they are?


    Yes, Michaelangelo, you are right. But you have now provided another
    negative example, which get by the nature of this group of course a
    large amount of attention. For once, I though it would be interesting to
    have a thread about positive examples for good but -- and that's the rub
    -- entertaining, daring, original, clever, ingenious, or whatever web
    design. You know, sites the people _here_, the more hard core HTMLers,
    like to LOOK at. I would be very interested in it. Feel free to provide
    perhaps a counter example of a site that maybe gives an idea of how
    Zanussi's site _should_ have been done?


    --
    Nicolai Zwar
    http://www.nicolaizwar.com
    Nicolai P. Zwar, Oct 4, 2003
    #6
  7. Michaelangelo wrote:


    > I'll second that!
    >
    > Earlier this week I needed to buy a new washing machine. Among the ones I
    > was interested in was a Zanussi but I wanted to check out the spec in
    > more detail than was provided on the retailers website. Naturally I went
    > to -
    >
    > www.zanussi.co.uk
    >
    > - only to be met with the most patronising message I've ever come across
    > informimg me that for the privilege of viewing their website I would have
    > to change my browser to either IE or Netcape. Opera 7.11 wasn't good
    > enough for them. Interestingly the message recommends IE5.5 and Netscape
    > 4.77! I decided that Zanussi wasn't good enough for me and have now
    > ordered a different make of machine.
    >
    > Who do these web designers think they are?



    Yes, Michaelangelo, you are right. But you have now provided another
    negative example, which get by the nature of this group of course a
    large amount of attention. For once, I thought it would be interesting
    to have a thread about positive examples for good but -- and that's the
    rub -- entertaining, daring, original, clever, ingenious, or whatever
    web design. You know, sites the people _here_, the more hard core
    HTMLers, like to LOOK at. I would be very interested in it. Feel free to
    provide perhaps a counter example of a site that maybe gives an idea of
    how Zanussi's site _should_ have been done?

    --
    Nicolai Zwar
    http://www.nicolaizwar.com
    Nicolai P. Zwar, Oct 4, 2003
    #7
  8. Nicolai P. Zwar

    Wipkip Guest

    Nicolai P. Zwar wrote:
    > Okay, there's a lot to be criticized in many major websites; overuse
    > of Flash, excessive and unnecessary table layout, inaccessibility
    > problems, proprietary tags disabling the use of a site for visitors
    > with other browsers, pop up windows, et cetera, et cetera, et
    > cetera... We read about a lot of such sites here.
    >
    > But let's take a look at the other side of the coin for a moment. I'd
    > be interested in what the regulars here consider "good" sites. But,
    > and here comes the rub, I do not mean mere dry text deserts or well
    > functioning and accessible sites that are well programmed but plain
    > and boring to look at, no, I'm wondering what are some of the better
    > "big" sites, sites that depend heavily on design and features,
    > multimedia sites, web shops. So I'm not looking for something like
    > http://www.w3.org/ , which is a great and easy to navigate resource
    > site for Web developers, but not particularly exciting in terms of
    > multimedia design.
    >
    > Who's got some examples for "good" multimedia sites, sites that maybe
    > provide some clever examples for intelligent incorporation of Flash,
    > or sites that have complex shopping cart/credit card systems à la
    > amazon.com, yet are tightly and well programmed, sites with gimmicks,
    > such as but not limited to (or mandatory to be included) pop ups,
    > *.mpeg movies, tables, JavaScript effects, and whatever, sites with
    > extras and features, but that are put to good use and not so much
    > annoying, in short, good examples for
    > multimedia-anything-goes-wowie-does-that-look-good! sites, whether
    > they are commercial or not, that are good examples for "bells and
    > whistles" sites. Totally subjective opinions welcome.


    http://wipkip.us/

    --
    Duende
    -----
    What is the difference between genius and stupidity?
    Genius has limits. - Albert Einstein.
    Wipkip, Oct 4, 2003
    #8
  9. Michaelangelo wrote:


    > Earlier this week I needed to buy a new washing machine. Among the ones I
    > was interested in was a Zanussi but I wanted to check out the spec in
    > more detail than was provided on the retailers website. Naturally I went
    > to -
    >
    > www.zanussi.co.uk
    >
    > - only to be met with the most patronising message I've ever come across
    > informimg me that for the privilege of viewing their website I would have
    > to change my browser to either IE or Netcape. Opera 7.11 wasn't good
    > enough for them. Interestingly the message recommends IE5.5 and Netscape
    > 4.77! I decided that Zanussi wasn't good enough for me and have now
    > ordered a different make of machine.
    >
    > Who do these web designers think they are?



    PS: I just visited the site with Opera and got the same message. Perhaps
    if every Opera user reading this would pay this site a visit, stay there
    a second, and then leave again... heh, heh... will sure look annoying
    when they take a look at their statistics and see that a surprisingly
    large number of Opera users went to their site only to be turned away. ;)
    --
    Nicolai Zwar
    http://www.nicolaizwar.com
    Nicolai P. Zwar, Oct 4, 2003
    #9
  10. Nicolai P. Zwar

    picayunish Guest

    picayunish, Oct 4, 2003
    #10
  11. Nicolai P. Zwar

    Adrienne Guest

    Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Nicolai P. Zwar"
    <> writing in news:blncq2$sf1$:

    > Michaelangelo wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Earlier this week I needed to buy a new washing machine. Among the
    >> ones I was interested in was a Zanussi but I wanted to check out the
    >> spec in more detail than was provided on the retailers website.
    >> Naturally I went to -
    >>
    >> www.zanussi.co.uk
    >>
    >> - only to be met with the most patronising message I've ever come
    >> across
    >> informimg me that for the privilege of viewing their website I would
    >> have to change my browser to either IE or Netcape. Opera 7.11 wasn't
    >> good enough for them. Interestingly the message recommends IE5.5 and
    >> Netscape 4.77! I decided that Zanussi wasn't good enough for me and
    >> have now ordered a different make of machine.
    >>
    >> Who do these web designers think they are?

    >
    >
    > PS: I just visited the site with Opera and got the same message.
    > Perhaps if every Opera user reading this would pay this site a visit,
    > stay there a second, and then leave again... heh, heh... will sure look
    > annoying when they take a look at their statistics and see that a
    > surprisingly large number of Opera users went to their site only to be
    > turned away. ;)


    I use Opera, and I sent them a nice message, asking them if they were aware
    of how many potential customers they were losing, and how in the future
    there could be many more considering more and more people are using other
    web enabled devices.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    http://www.arbpen.com
    Adrienne, Oct 4, 2003
    #11
  12. Nicolai P. Zwar pounced upon this pigeonhole and pronounced:
    > Michaelangelo wrote:
    >
    > > www.zanussi.co.uk

    >
    > PS: I just visited the site with Opera and got the same message.


    Heh, try it with Lynx.

    [INLINE] [INLINE]
    [LINK] See the new Zanussi Dishwasher range [LINK]
    [INLINE] [LINK] [INLINE] [LINK] [INLINE] [LINK] [INLINE] [LINK]
    [INLINE] [LINK] [INLINE] [LINK]
    [LINK]
    [LINK]


    End of page.
    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left chuckling.
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Oct 4, 2003
    #12
  13. In article <bln77b$mge$>, says

    > Yes, Michaelangelo, you are right. But you have now provided another
    > negative example, which get by the nature of this group of course a
    > large amount of attention. For once, I thought it would be interesting
    > to have a thread about positive examples for good but -- and that's the
    > rub -- entertaining, daring, original, clever, ingenious, or whatever
    > web design. You know, sites the people _here_, the more hard core
    > HTMLers, like to LOOK at. I would be very interested in it. Feel free to
    > provide perhaps a counter example of a site that maybe gives an idea of
    > how Zanussi's site _should_ have been done?


    Yes, I realised I was giving another negative example but the point is I
    don't go to websites to LOOK et them. I go for information or maybe to
    acquire something - a purchase or a download of some kind. In the same
    way I go to art galleries to look at the pictures, not to admire the
    picture-frames.

    --
    Michaelangelo
    Michaelangelo, Oct 4, 2003
    #13
  14. In article <blncq2$sf1$>, says

    > PS: I just visited the site with Opera and got the same message. Perhaps
    > if every Opera user reading this would pay this site a visit, stay there
    > a second, and then leave again... heh, heh... will sure look annoying
    > when they take a look at their statistics and see that a surprisingly
    > large number of Opera users went to their site only to be turned away. ;)


    Except that their stats won't show many instances of visits from Opera
    users because, by default, Opera masquerades as IE. I suspect that most
    Opera users just leave it set up that way. What I should probably do is
    write to the CEO of Zanussi (or Electrolux) asking him what on earth he
    or she thinks their web designers are playing at.

    --
    Michaelangelo
    Michaelangelo, Oct 4, 2003
    #14
  15. Nicolai P. Zwar

    Wipkip Guest

    picayunish wrote:
    > Wipkip wrote in news:eek:AFfb.7350$:
    >>
    >> http://wipkip.us/

    >
    > Please don't change so much your uri. ;-(
    > Welcome back Duende.


    Was I away?

    --
    Duende
    Wipkip, Oct 5, 2003
    #15
  16. Nicolai P. Zwar

    picayunish Guest

    picayunish, Oct 5, 2003
    #16
  17. Nicolai P. Zwar

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <blmnnb$5lk$>, says...
    > Data from the largest research companies on earth (Forrester, Gartner,
    > Raddon) indicate clearly that the majority of web users (around 70%) use the
    > Web for "Information", not entertainment.
    > As such, a "good" website would be designed to be informed above all else.
    > Multimedia would be used as a supplement for the information on the site,
    > not *as* the information.


    Except on that other 30% right? So if that is your market, then it is
    ok to use stuff like flash, and multi-media. Also, did they give a
    breakdown of what that 70% considered to be entertainment? for example,
    is looking at the Matrix movies web site considered entertainment or
    information? It could be looked at either way. And in any event, that
    30% is a mighty fine niche to have a piece of.

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Oct 5, 2003
    #17
  18. Nicolai P. Zwar

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > I'll second that!
    > Earlier this week I needed to buy a new washing machine. Among the ones I
    > was interested in was a Zanussi but I wanted to check out the spec in
    > more detail than was provided on the retailers website. Naturally I went
    > to -
    > www.zanussi.co.uk
    > - only to be met with the most patronising message I've ever come across
    > informimg me that for the privilege of viewing their website I would have
    > to change my browser to either IE or Netcape. Opera 7.11 wasn't good
    > enough for them. Interestingly the message recommends IE5.5 and Netscape
    > 4.77! I decided that Zanussi wasn't good enough for me and have now
    > ordered a different make of machine.
    > Who do these web designers think they are?


    You made a choice, to use opera. They made a choice they don't support
    your browser. What did your choice cost you? Maybe the best washing
    machine in the world. What did it cost them? Maybe your sale.

    You both made a choice. Both had consequences. Neither was wrong.

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Oct 5, 2003
    #18
  19. Nicolai P. Zwar

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > Except that their stats won't show many instances of visits from Opera
    > users because, by default, Opera masquerades as IE. I suspect that most
    > Opera users just leave it set up that way. What I should probably do is
    > write to the CEO of Zanussi (or Electrolux) asking him what on earth he
    > or she thinks their web designers are playing at.


    It will do nothing. Lets say you all write to the CEO and say, hey I
    use opera and can't see your site.

    Lets say he goes to the development teams and asks them about it. They
    could easily talk him into believing that opera is hardly a hair on a
    gnat's ass. "But look at this cool web feature we will lose if we
    support Opera. And look at the web logs at how few of our visitors use
    Opera." To which the CEO will reply "Damn your right. I'm glad I have
    you guys."

    I am not judging if that is right or not, but welcome to reality folks.

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Oct 5, 2003
    #19
  20. Whitecrest wrote:

    > You made a choice, to use opera. They made a choice they don't support
    > your browser. What did your choice cost you? Maybe the best washing
    > machine in the world. What did it cost them? Maybe your sale.
    >
    > You both made a choice. Both had consequences. Neither was wrong.



    That just about wraps it all up.


    --
    Nicolai Zwar
    http://www.nicolaizwar.com
    Nicolai P. Zwar, Oct 5, 2003
    #20
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