Guido at Google

?

=?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=

Java => Sun
.Net => Microsoft
C# => Microsoft
Linux => too many big name IT companies to mention
Python => ________ ?

I know at least one company responsible for a linux distro (Cannonical
- Ubuntu), which encourages and even pays programmers for developing
applications in Python.
His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan.
 
C

Carsten Haese

Since when is Python in a standstill?

I believe bonono meant the question in the hypothetical sense of "If
Python would stand still in its current state, what would be the impact
to Google?" but didn't know how to ask it correctly.

-Carsten
 
R

Renato

For what is worth,
all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and
Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or
redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official
software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS
installer) are written in Python, too.

So RedHat, too, has a big interest in Python :)
 
G

Graham Fawcett

Cameron said:
.
While I don't understand the question, it might be pertinent to
observe that, among open-source development projects, Python is
unusual for the *large* number of "forks" or alternative imple-
mentations it has supported through the years <URL:
http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.python/python_varieties.html >.

....though not a lot of forks/variations that have persisted past the
early-alpha phase. Many of those projects are stale or defunct, alas.

Personally, I'd point out Scheme as an "open" HLL with a vast number of
implementations. But I guess it helps when the language itself is a
spec and there's no canonical implementation.

This all reminds me of one my favourite quotes from python-list of
yore:

<Thaddeus Olczyk> So python will fork if ActiveState starts
polluting it?

<Brian Quinlan> I find it more relevant to speculate on whether
Python would fork if the merpeople start invading our cities
riding on the backs of giant king crabs. [1]

Merry _('Christmas') to all,
Graham
 
G

Graham Fawcett

Steve said:
I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
[suspicous premature end-of-sentence]

Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
cabal!

Graham
 
S

Steve Holden

The question is, can anyone just fork a new one using the python name,
as part of the project, without the permission from the foundation ?
Say for example, anyone want to implement java needs permission from
Sun(or is it javasoft), if I rememeber correctly. Therefore, the only
way to make change to java the language is to convince Sun, very
similar to the model of Python. But many open source project is not
using this model.
Well the name "Python" is a trade mark of the Python Software
Foundation. So if you invent another language and start calling it
"Python" just to get an audience you should expect to receive a
cease-and-desist letter.

regards
Steve
 
B

bonono

Steve said:
Well the name "Python" is a trade mark of the Python Software
Foundation. So if you invent another language and start calling it
"Python" just to get an audience you should expect to receive a
cease-and-desist letter.
That is what I expect but don't know to what extend. Can it be called
PythonModified like when people enhance vi so there is vim and nvi etc
?

What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase
and make modifications then call it Sneak ?
 
C

Carsten Haese

The question is, can anyone just fork a new one using the python name,
as part of the project, without the permission from the foundation ?
Say for example, anyone want to implement java needs permission from
Sun(or is it javasoft), if I rememeber correctly. Therefore, the only
way to make change to java the language is to convince Sun, very
similar to the model of Python. But many open source project is not
using this model.

Most of your question can be answered by reading the license. Section 3
of version 2 of the PSF license states:
"""
3. In the event Licensee prepares a derivative work that is based on
or incorporates Python or any part thereof, and wants to make
the derivative work available to others as provided herein, then
Licensee hereby agrees to include in any such work a brief summary of
the changes made to Python.
"""

In other words, you can change Python to your liking and distribute the
changed version, as long as you tell people how it differs from Python.
Since the changed version is different from Python, calling it Python
would be a) boneheaded and b) as Steve Holden points out, a trademark
violation. Note that section 7 states that "This License Agreement does
not grant permission to use PSF trademarks or trade name in a trademark
sense to endorse or promote products or services of Licensee, or any
third party" and the Python name is a trademark of the PSF.

So, if there is something you don't like about Python, you have two
choices:
1) Seek consensus with the Python community and have your changes
accepted into the "official" Python version, or
2) Fork Python into something else with a different name. If the
different name contains 'Python', you'll probably have to ask PSF for
permission. In any case, as outlined above, you have have to state that
the fork is based on Python and summarize how it differs from Python.

Hope this clears things up,

Carsten.
 
B

bonono

Carsten said:
So, if there is something you don't like about Python, you have two
choices:
1) Seek consensus with the Python community and have your changes
accepted into the "official" Python version, or
2) Fork Python into something else with a different name. If the
different name contains 'Python', you'll probably have to ask PSF for
permission. In any case, as outlined above, you have have to state that
the fork is based on Python and summarize how it differs from Python.

Hope this clears things up,
Thanks, though I don't have urgent need(if at all) to see changes in it.
 
S

Steve Holden

That is what I expect but don't know to what extend. Can it be called
PythonModified like when people enhance vi so there is vim and nvi etc
?

What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase
and make modifications then call it Sneak ?
Far answers to this and all other (as far as I can determine)
hypothetical questions please refer to the license.

regards
Steve
 
T

Thomas Wouters

Steve said:
I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU
[suspicous premature end-of-sentence]

Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
cabal!

No, you don't understand. There is no PSU, and Steven doesn't know about
them (since it doesn't exist), and he nor I were held captive by the PSU,
since it doesn't exist. Nor is there, in fact, a PSU. Please stop
spreading rumours about the PSU. Not that you would be hunted down and
silenced forcefully by the PSU, which doesn't exist, if you continued to
spread such malignant lies about the existance of the non-existant PSU,
which doesn't exist, of course. Because it doesn't exist. So it wouldn't
be able to do that. Trust me.

Not-brainwashed-after-a-long-but-utterly-unsuspicious-and-PSU-unrelated-absense'ly
y'rs,
 
P

Peter Hansen

Graham said:
Steve said:
I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU

[suspicous premature end-of-sentence]

Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
cabal!

At about the same instant that he sent that message to group, I was
trying to call Steve on Google Talk and he suddenly went offline. I
haven't seen him since.

While I'm worried for him personally, all I can say is that I think it's
a darn good thing for the community...

....I mean, that he's not the PyCon conference chair this year!

-Peter
 
T

Tim Peters

[[email protected]]
...
What about the copyright in CPython ? Can I someone take the codebase
and make modifications then call it Sneak ?

Of course they _could_ do that, and even without making modifications
beyond the name change. If you want to know whether it's legal,
that's a different question. Take a copy of the Python license to
your lawyer and buy an opinion worth hearing ;-)
 
R

rbt

Alex said:
Rhetorical
questions are a perfectly legitimate style of writing (although, like
all stylistic embellishments, they can be overused, and can be made much
less effective if murkily or fuzzily phrased), of course.

Also, email doesn't convey rhetorical questions that well. Facial
expressions and body movement aid the audience in picking up on things
such as this... maybe Google can fix that too ;)
 
R

rbt

Luis said:
I know at least one company responsible for a linux distro (Cannonical
- Ubuntu), which encourages and even pays programmers for developing
applications in Python.
His founder, Mark Shuttleworth, is a python fan.

Aren't most all intelligent people Python fans?

Python is so unbarbaric or one might say 'refined', yet it can be
applied in a practical manner to all sorts of things. It's like having
James Bond as your very own personal body guard ;)
 
A

Alex Martelli

So exactly how high is python in Google's priority list ? Or in other
words, if python is in a stand still as it is now, what would be the
impact to Google ? As an outsider, I can only base on public info, like

And so can I, as an insider, when I communicate with people who are not
employed by Google nor have signed non-disclosure agreements.
a press release mentioning Guido has been hired.

If only press releases count, then I believe Google has made few hires
in 2005 -- Elliot Schrage, Johnny Chou, and Vint Cerf, would be about
it, I believe (e.g., I can't even see any press release specifically
about our hiring Kai Fu Lee at http://googlepress.blogspot.com, though
he's mentioned in the press release about Chou).

An example of rhetorical question:
"Do you really think that a specific technology [including a software
one, such as a programming language] cannot have, in certain cases,
*extremely high* strategic priority for organizations with thousands of
employees?"
...
Surprisingly, I don't see this as an rhetorical question at all. It is

Then you don't know what "rhetorical question" means; you'll find many
explanations on the web, but one of my favorite is "a question that
conveys a point rather than expects an answer", which is exactly what
this example IS. ((I don't personally find it all that surprising that
you don't know what a given English expression means)).
quite netural to me as a "I don't agree with you" without indication of
silliness, just a style of writing.

As I said, and I quote:

although they can be overused, or weakened if they're fuzzy or badly
expressed. More specifically, a rhetorical question may often be used
"for effect" and emphasis, as several of the definitions you'll find on
the web mention.


Alex
 
A

Alex Martelli

Carsten Haese said:
I believe bonono meant the question in the hypothetical sense of "If
Python would stand still in its current state, what would be the impact
to Google?" but didn't know how to ask it correctly.

Answering generically rather than on the basis of any inside
information, like for any other technology, a lot would depend on how
other technologies "competing" for similar uses are faring.

If _every_ programming language were suddenly to undergo the same
"standing still", then the technological stasis would affect every
company using programming languages, regardless of their specific
technology choices: productivity growth would slow across the board (not
stop, of course -- cfr. e.g. Tenner's "Our Own Devices" for very
readable analysis of the effects of the developments of technology
versus technique) but the competitive situation would be unaffected.

If, on the other hand, technology X was to suddently stand still while
competing technology Y keeps showing real improvements, this would
progressively tilt the competitive playing field against companies
heavily invested in X and not in Y; eventually such companies would have
to pay the costs of switching to Y, or suffer a deterioration in their
competitive position.

That Google's heavily invested in Python is hardly inside information (I
believe we have a quote to that effect by Peter Norvig on python.org).

Of course, this pretty obvious analysis treats "Python" as a whole
technology -- it doesn't particularly care whether "improvements" come
to the language per se, to the libraries, to the implementation, etc, it
just takes as "improvement" any change that does enhance existing users'
productivity (indeed, changes that do so without requiring any training
or much work, such as compiling an unchanged language to faster code,
might have more immediate impact than new language features, which would
only enter into use slowly and gradually).


Alex
 
G

Graham Fawcett

Peter said:
Graham said:
Steve said:
Nicola Musatti wrote:
Of course, I'm going on vacation next week and there was talk
about a one-way ticket to Mexico. The real question is will they let me *back* in? :)
I would be careful coming back across the border. I heard that the PSU

[suspicous premature end-of-sentence]

Steve, I hope that the PSU is just jamming your comms, and not holding
you captive over the holidays for your transgressions against the
cabal!

At about the same instant that he sent that message to group, I was
trying to call Steve on Google Talk and he suddenly went offline. I
haven't seen him since.

There is no Steve Holden, and he has never been at war with Eurasia.
Remove the P, S and U keys from your keyboard immediately.

double-plus-good'ly yours, ...umm... doble-l-good'ly yor,

Graham
 
A

Alex Martelli

Renato said:
all of the native administration tools of RedHat (all versions) and
Fedora Core are written in python (system-config-* and/or
redhat-config-* ). And even more importantly, yum (the official
software package manager for Fedora and RHEL) and Anaconda (OS
installer) are written in Python, too.

BTW, Chip Turner (from RedHat, and deeply involved in those
developments) happened to start at Google the same day I did;-).


Alex
 
K

Kent Johnson

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