Had Phyton suggested

Discussion in 'Python' started by P.C., Feb 8, 2004.

  1. P.C.

    P.C. Guest

    Hi

    My son like many youngsters been around computers, fast online games, he
    acturly for main part learned to read and write ,beside his second language
    english , and may I say he is quite good at it age 15 , but as some of you
    know, 3D games also offer edditors and script options , or rather
    programming choppers and dust clouds in scenes.
    Now beside my bad english, my problem is, that I like him to learn decent
    programming ------- sure I know the best way to learn is looking at source
    code and change a bit here or there to se the actural results, but with his
    knowleage about programming he proberly fail to se how functions work and
    even he made some quite nice effects in the scenes in "Operation falshpoint
    resistance" , I just know that he would profit from learning from buttom up,
    a real programming language.
    Now from an old friend I been advised Phyton, and as I know a bit about
    programming ( Lisp ) , I agrea after checking a few links ; guess Phyton is
    very much C++ like ,so investing in his interests programming scenes for
    games, could be in his faviour .
    Now I agrea that my own knowleage about compilers and more advanced
    programming are limited, and my fear is that I will need some sort of C.
    compiler causing day's and weeks of trouble setting up ------- or what do
    the group think ; my question is, if there today are compilers that is set
    up and work as simple as for instance the first Pascal compilers .
    Well I agrea that my own trouble programming, never been the actural
    programming, but all the silli trouble with compilers, as you se amatures
    don't care if the program spend a bit more memmory ,as long as it work and
    acturly produce compiled code.
    Guess my question is, if it is possible to find a compiler that is fit for
    amatures, one that an amature will not have to fight before it is ready to
    use. One where you ,as when I learned programming , don't need to be a
    compiler specialist before you even learn programming.

    P.C.
    P.C., Feb 8, 2004
    #1
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  2. P.C.

    P.C. Guest

    Hi

    "P.C." <> skrev i en meddelelse
    news:4026488d$0$95048$...
    > Hi
    >


    Sorry Python not "Phyton".
    Please don't just ansver about wrong spelling.

    P.C.
    http://home20.inet.tele.dk/h-3d/
    P.C., Feb 8, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. P.C. wrote:
    > Hi
    >
    > My son like many youngsters been around computers, fast online games, he
    > acturly for main part learned to read and write ,beside his second language
    > english , and may I say he is quite good at it age 15 , but as some of you
    > know, 3D games also offer edditors and script options , or rather
    > programming choppers and dust clouds in scenes.
    > Now beside my bad english, my problem is, that I like him to learn decent
    > programming ------- sure I know the best way to learn is looking at source
    > code and change a bit here or there to se the actural results, but with his
    > knowleage about programming he proberly fail to se how functions work and
    > even he made some quite nice effects in the scenes in "Operation falshpoint
    > resistance" , I just know that he would profit from learning from buttom up,
    > a real programming language.
    > Now from an old friend I been advised Phyton, and as I know a bit about
    > programming ( Lisp ) , I agrea after checking a few links ; guess Phyton is
    > very much C++ like ,so investing in his interests programming scenes for
    > games, could be in his faviour .
    > Now I agrea that my own knowleage about compilers and more advanced
    > programming are limited, and my fear is that I will need some sort of C.
    > compiler causing day's and weeks of trouble setting up ------- or what do
    > the group think ; my question is, if there today are compilers that is set
    > up and work as simple as for instance the first Pascal compilers .
    > Well I agrea that my own trouble programming, never been the actural
    > programming, but all the silli trouble with compilers, as you se amatures
    > don't care if the program spend a bit more memmory ,as long as it work and
    > acturly produce compiled code.
    > Guess my question is, if it is possible to find a compiler that is fit for
    > amatures, one that an amature will not have to fight before it is ready to
    > use. One where you ,as when I learned programming , don't need to be a
    > compiler specialist before you even learn programming.
    >
    > P.C.
    >
    >

    Python is an interpreted language, not a compiled one. So you don't need
    to worry about compilers at all. This makes it a little easier to get
    into than compiled languages. I thin python is a very good introduction
    to someone who knows nothing about programming.

    At the risk of making a lot of python fans angry, I would also suggest
    that you look at java. This IS a compiled language (although ironically,
    the compiled bytecode is interpreted). I suggest this for a few reasons:
    * You cannot really avoid thinking in an object-oriented way when
    writing java. I suspect that python will allow you to develop some very
    nasyt habits.
    * The java tutorial is massive, and has loads of examples.
    * I have not seen anything like BlueJ for python. BlueJ is an excellent
    beginners IDE with editor, debugger, and a UML-like diagram that shows
    how your classes interconnect.

    Better, learn a little of both languages.

    Steve
    Steve Horsley, Feb 8, 2004
    #3
  4. P.C.

    Paxcal Guest

    I think that Python is really the best shioce... I started programming in
    Python to make games and soon I started to listen people talking about how
    easy and fast it was to create games in Python. Now I'm one of then =) .
    Python is an object oriented interpreted language that can be used to do
    from the simplest things to the extremely powerfull. The fact that it is
    interpreted means that it's really easy to "compile" or run aplication
    without extensive knowledge.
    In fact when I took my first look at the Python documentation, after a few
    hours I was starting to play with code.

    If you are interested in looking at game programming with Python take a look
    at this site:

    www.pygame.org

    Regards:

    Ricardo

    I'm sorry for my bad English but it is not my primary language...
    Paxcal, Feb 8, 2004
    #4
  5. P.C.

    Aahz Guest

    In article <4026488d$0$95048$>,
    P.C. <> wrote:
    >
    >Guess my question is, if it is possible to find a compiler that is fit
    >for amatures, one that an amature will not have to fight before it is
    >ready to use. One where you ,as when I learned programming , don't need
    >to be a compiler specialist before you even learn programming.


    Python doesn't use a compiler per se; like Perl, it's an interpreted
    language, similar to using a VisualBasic macro in Word (though without
    the baggage of Word, of course). If you're using a Windows computer,
    just download a copy of Python from http://www.python.org/

    If you've got a Linux box, you probably already have Python available.
    Try typing "python" at the shell prompt.

    Either way, Python is popular among teenagers, and we've had several on
    comp.lang.python, including one from the Netherlands. I'm assuming
    he'll show up soon and offer to talk to your son directly. ;-)

    You'll also want to take a look at
    http://www.python.org/topics/learn/non-prog.html
    --
    Aahz () <*> http://www.pythoncraft.com/

    "The joy of coding Python should be in seeing short, concise, readable
    classes that express a lot of action in a small amount of clear code --
    not in reams of trivial code that bores the reader to death." --GvR
    Aahz, Feb 8, 2004
    #5
  6. P.C.

    djw Guest

    Steve Horsley wrote:

    > P.C. wrote:
    >
    >> Hi
    >>
    >> My son like many youngsters been around computers, fast online games, he
    >> acturly for main part learned to read and write ,beside his second
    >> language
    >> english , and may I say he is quite good at it age 15 , but as some
    >> of you
    >> know, 3D games also offer edditors and script options , or rather
    >> programming choppers and dust clouds in scenes.
    >> Now beside my bad english, my problem is, that I like him to learn decent
    >> programming ------- sure I know the best way to learn is looking at
    >> source
    >> code and change a bit here or there to se the actural results, but
    >> with his
    >> knowleage about programming he proberly fail to se how functions work and
    >> even he made some quite nice effects in the scenes in "Operation
    >> falshpoint
    >> resistance" , I just know that he would profit from learning from
    >> buttom up,
    >> a real programming language.
    >> Now from an old friend I been advised Phyton, and as I know a bit about
    >> programming ( Lisp ) , I agrea after checking a few links ; guess
    >> Phyton is
    >> very much C++ like ,so investing in his interests programming scenes for
    >> games, could be in his faviour .
    >> Now I agrea that my own knowleage about compilers and more advanced
    >> programming are limited, and my fear is that I will need some sort of C.
    >> compiler causing day's and weeks of trouble setting up ------- or what do
    >> the group think ; my question is, if there today are compilers that is
    >> set
    >> up and work as simple as for instance the first Pascal compilers .
    >> Well I agrea that my own trouble programming, never been the actural
    >> programming, but all the silli trouble with compilers, as you se amatures
    >> don't care if the program spend a bit more memmory ,as long as it work
    >> and
    >> acturly produce compiled code.
    >> Guess my question is, if it is possible to find a compiler that is fit
    >> for
    >> amatures, one that an amature will not have to fight before it is
    >> ready to
    >> use. One where you ,as when I learned programming , don't need to be a
    >> compiler specialist before you even learn programming.
    >>
    >> P.C.
    >>
    >>

    > Python is an interpreted language, not a compiled one. So you don't need
    > to worry about compilers at all. This makes it a little easier to get
    > into than compiled languages. I thin python is a very good introduction
    > to someone who knows nothing about programming.
    >
    > At the risk of making a lot of python fans angry, I would also suggest
    > that you look at java. This IS a compiled language (although ironically,
    > the compiled bytecode is interpreted). I suggest this for a few reasons:
    > * You cannot really avoid thinking in an object-oriented way when
    > writing java. I suspect that python will allow you to develop some very
    > nasyt habits.
    > * The java tutorial is massive, and has loads of examples.
    > * I have not seen anything like BlueJ for python. BlueJ is an excellent
    > beginners IDE with editor, debugger, and a UML-like diagram that shows
    > how your classes interconnect.
    >
    > Better, learn a little of both languages.
    >
    > Steve


    Angry, no. But I don't think your advice is very sound. First, Python
    "compiles" to bytecodes much the way Java does. If Java does anything
    different, it is that it can employ a JIT compiler to speed up the
    execution of the bytecodes. Second, I disagree that Python will make
    someone develop "bad habits". Using object oriented programming is not
    the end-all to all the world's problems. Java forces you into this model
    at all times, Python doesn't. If anything, I think Java's view of the
    world is flawed - sometimes objects aren't the answer to a programming
    problem. For a beginner, having to do all your thinking in objects makes
    learning the basics harder, in my view. Last, there are plenty of good
    (if not great) editors for Python. Pushing an editor that includes
    things as UML is not really very productive for a beginner, and it could
    be argued it not even very useful for advanced programmers (if your
    class hierarchy is s complex that you need (live) UML, you probably have
    too complex of a design.) I do agree with your last sentiment, learn
    lots of languages, Python, Java, C/C++, etc. and see which one(s) meets
    your needs best.

    -D
    djw, Feb 8, 2004
    #6
  7. Check out: http://pygame.org/

    If your son is interested in making games, and you want him to learn
    Python, I believe that link will help you.

    - Josiah
    Josiah Carlson, Feb 8, 2004
    #7
  8. P.C.

    Paul Prescod Guest

    Steve Horsley wrote:

    >...
    >
    > At the risk of making a lot of python fans angry, I would also suggest
    > that you look at java. This IS a compiled language (although ironically,
    > the compiled bytecode is interpreted).


    Python and Java both compile to byte-code. The only difference is that
    Python does it automatically whereas Java requires you to compile manually.

    I suggest this for a few reasons:
    > * You cannot really avoid thinking in an object-oriented way when
    > writing java. I suspect that python will allow you to develop some very
    > nasyt habits.


    I disagree that the opposite of object orientation is "nasty habits."
    Forcing every problem into an object oriented paradigm is itself a nasty
    (and ultimately confusing) habit.

    > * The java tutorial is massive, and has loads of examples.


    Is it more massive than these:

    * http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/
    * http://diveintopython.org/
    * http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIPython
    * http://www.python.org/doc/current/tut/tut.html
    * http://honors.montana.edu/~jjc/easytut/easytut/

    And this one is specifically about game programming:

    * http://pygame.org/docs/tut/chimp/ChimpLineByLine.html

    > * I have not seen anything like BlueJ for python. BlueJ is an excellent
    > beginners IDE with editor, debugger, and a UML-like diagram that shows
    > how your classes interconnect.


    I haven't tried BlueJ so I can't compare but I don't think an IDE could
    make up for Java's flaws as a learning language. "Hello world" in Java
    is 7 lines compared to 1 in Python. The Python version has just two
    concepts: printing and strings. The Java version brings in three
    keywords (class, public, static) a module, an object, a function, two
    types, etc.

    > Better, learn a little of both languages.


    Can't disagree with that. Learn Python. Learn Pygame. Write your game.
    Then learn Java to have something good to put on your resume.

    Paul Prescod
    Paul Prescod, Feb 8, 2004
    #8
  9. "P.C." <> writes:

    > Sorry Python not "Phyton".


    Not a bad name, actually....describes what we do pretty well (not with
    each other, of course.)
    --
    KBK
    Kurt B. Kaiser, Feb 8, 2004
    #9
  10. Steve Horsley <> writes:

    > At the risk of making a lot of python fans angry, I would also suggest
    > that you look at java. This IS a compiled language (although
    > ironically, the compiled bytecode is interpreted).


    Same as Python.

    Actually, difference between an interpreter and a compiler is pretty
    blurred. Let's see: a compiler compiles to machine code which is
    interpreted by the microcode engine in the processor etc. ad infinitum.

    > I suggest this for a few reasons: * You cannot really avoid thinking
    > in an object-oriented way when writing java.


    This is not an advantage.

    > I suspect that python will allow you to develop some very nasyt
    > habits.


    For example? Surely you don't mean programming in a functional style
    when that is optimal as opposed to always using objects?

    > * The java tutorial is massive, and has loads of examples.


    This is not an advantage. One of the features of Python is how simple
    a relatively complete tutorial can be.

    > * I have not seen anything like BlueJ for python. BlueJ is an
    > excellent beginners IDE with editor, debugger, and a UML-like
    > diagram that shows how your classes interconnect.


    This is pretty cool. It reminds me a lot of Python's IDLE in its
    approach and target audience. BlueJ's debugger is slightly more
    capable than IDLE's is, and IDLE doesn't have the UML representation
    of classes (though there is Bicycle Repair Man) which is deeply
    integrated into BlueJ.

    I'll be looking more closely at this; thanks for the reference!
    --
    KBK
    Kurt B. Kaiser, Feb 8, 2004
    #10
  11. P.C.

    fBechmann Guest

    Getting a compiler environment running should be a minor task compared
    with the complexity of programming in a modern 3D gaming engine, so that
    should not be your biggest fear. And if you choose a 3D gaming engine
    with a decent community there are tutorials how to get everything running.

    I would start by thinking about what you/your son want to do:
    1) starting 3D game development from scratch, e.g. based on OpenGL
    2) using an existing 3D gaming engine and code your own stuff
    3) using a complete gaming engine (like quake or UT) and doing some
    mod(ification) development
    4) joining the development team of a complete open source 3D game.

    Then - for your selection - start seaching the net - if you did not
    choose option 1) the result will quite probably answer your question,
    because each existing "environment" brings its language/compiler with
    it. Too make it more complicated some "environments" provide a
    two-leveled architecture, where the "core" is mostly written in C or C++
    and the "frame" is written e.g. in python, lua or some other "small"
    language (but too my knowledge 3D games usually have - if at all -
    propriatary languages for this like QuakeC, "normal" languages are more
    typical for RPG); in this case you might choose your favorite
    "environment" with respect to your favorite "frame" language.

    Googling should bring you some interesting results, next to this good
    places to start are:
    - http://gaming.foundries.sourceforge.net/ (general gaming)
    - http://3d.foundries.sourceforge.net/ (3D gaming)
    - http://www.planetquake.com/code3arena/ (quake 3 coding)
    fBechmann, Feb 9, 2004
    #11
  12. In article <ZWuVb.246007$I06.2735974@attbi_s01>, djw wrote:
    > Angry, no. But I don't think your advice is very sound. First, Python
    > "compiles" to bytecodes much the way Java does. If Java does anything
    > different, it is that it can employ a JIT compiler to speed up the
    > execution of the bytecodes.


    And if you are on the i386 platform and download the Psyco
    (http://psyco.sourceforge.net) 'JIT' compiler, that difference
    vanishes also. And Psyco can actually profile first, then JIT, which
    is beyond the Java JIT.

    I've used it extensively for a wxPython based project and it works
    like a charm, speeding up the 'algorithmic' sections of my code to the
    point where I didn't have to consider dropping down to 'C' to get the
    responsiveness I needed.

    Check it out. I give it two thumbs up.

    Stefan,
    --
    Stefan Axelsson (email at http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~sax)
    Stefan Axelsson, Feb 9, 2004
    #12
  13. djw wrote:
    > Steve Horsley wrote:
    >
    >> P.C. wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hi
    >>>
    >>> My son like many youngsters been around computers, fast online games, he
    >>> acturly for main part learned to read and write ,beside his second
    >>> language
    >>> english , and may I say he is quite good at it age 15 , but as some
    >>> of you
    >>> know, 3D games also offer edditors and script options , or rather
    >>> programming choppers and dust clouds in scenes.
    >>> Now beside my bad english, my problem is, that I like him to learn
    >>> decent
    >>> programming ------- sure I know the best way to learn is looking at
    >>> source
    >>> code and change a bit here or there to se the actural results, but
    >>> with his
    >>> knowleage about programming he proberly fail to se how functions work
    >>> and
    >>> even he made some quite nice effects in the scenes in "Operation
    >>> falshpoint
    >>> resistance" , I just know that he would profit from learning from
    >>> buttom up,
    >>> a real programming language.
    >>> Now from an old friend I been advised Phyton, and as I know a bit about
    >>> programming ( Lisp ) , I agrea after checking a few links ; guess
    >>> Phyton is
    >>> very much C++ like ,so investing in his interests programming scenes for
    >>> games, could be in his faviour .
    >>> Now I agrea that my own knowleage about compilers and more advanced
    >>> programming are limited, and my fear is that I will need some sort of C.
    >>> compiler causing day's and weeks of trouble setting up ------- or
    >>> what do
    >>> the group think ; my question is, if there today are compilers that
    >>> is set
    >>> up and work as simple as for instance the first Pascal compilers .
    >>> Well I agrea that my own trouble programming, never been the actural
    >>> programming, but all the silli trouble with compilers, as you se
    >>> amatures
    >>> don't care if the program spend a bit more memmory ,as long as it
    >>> work and
    >>> acturly produce compiled code.
    >>> Guess my question is, if it is possible to find a compiler that is
    >>> fit for
    >>> amatures, one that an amature will not have to fight before it is
    >>> ready to
    >>> use. One where you ,as when I learned programming , don't need to be a
    >>> compiler specialist before you even learn programming.
    >>>
    >>> P.C.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Python is an interpreted language, not a compiled one. So you don't
    >> need to worry about compilers at all. This makes it a little easier to
    >> get into than compiled languages. I thin python is a very good
    >> introduction to someone who knows nothing about programming.
    >>
    >> At the risk of making a lot of python fans angry, I would also suggest
    >> that you look at java. This IS a compiled language (although
    >> ironically, the compiled bytecode is interpreted). I suggest this for
    >> a few reasons:
    >> * You cannot really avoid thinking in an object-oriented way when
    >> writing java. I suspect that python will allow you to develop some
    >> very nasyt habits.
    >> * The java tutorial is massive, and has loads of examples.
    >> * I have not seen anything like BlueJ for python. BlueJ is an
    >> excellent beginners IDE with editor, debugger, and a UML-like diagram
    >> that shows how your classes interconnect.
    >>
    >> Better, learn a little of both languages.
    >>
    >> Steve

    >
    >
    > Angry, no. But I don't think your advice is very sound. First, Python
    > "compiles" to bytecodes much the way Java does. If Java does anything
    > different, it is that it can employ a JIT compiler to speed up the
    > execution of the bytecodes. Second, I disagree that Python will make
    > someone develop "bad habits". Using object oriented programming is not
    > the end-all to all the world's problems. Java forces you into this model
    > at all times, Python doesn't. If anything, I think Java's view of the
    > world is flawed - sometimes objects aren't the answer to a programming
    > problem. For a beginner, having to do all your thinking in objects makes
    > learning the basics harder, in my view. Last, there are plenty of good
    > (if not great) editors for Python. Pushing an editor that includes
    > things as UML is not really very productive for a beginner, and it could
    > be argued it not even very useful for advanced programmers (if your
    > class hierarchy is s complex that you need (live) UML, you probably have
    > too complex of a design.) I do agree with your last sentiment, learn
    > lots of languages, Python, Java, C/C++, etc. and see which one(s) meets
    > your needs best.
    >
    > -D
    >


    There _is_ a difference in the compilation. With java, you have to
    compile to bytecode before trying to run the program. With python, you
    just run the program. This is because the python interpreter accepts
    text files, whereas the JVM doesn't. e.g.

    Python:
    edlin myprog.py
    python myprog

    java:
    edlin myprog.java
    javac myprog.java
    jave myprog

    As for not encouraging bad habits, I thought not until I came across a
    34k python script where every variable was global and not one procedure
    accepted any arguments or returned any values. I suspect that the only
    chopping into procedures was to keep the text on the page. I now think
    that a real beginner needs a better push in the right direction.

    Steve
    Steve Horsley, Feb 9, 2004
    #13
  14. P.C.

    Jp Calderone Guest

    On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 08:45:55PM +0000, Steve Horsley wrote:
    > [snip]
    >
    > There _is_ a difference in the compilation. With java, you have to
    > compile to bytecode before trying to run the program. With python, you
    > just run the program. This is because the python interpreter accepts
    > text files, whereas the JVM doesn't. e.g.


    The difference is minimal. CPython merely knows how to invoke its own
    compiler when compilation is necessary. Compilation still occurs, always,
    before anything is executed. You could write a wrapper around java and
    javac that, when given a .class file, ran it directly, and when given a
    ..java file, compiled it, then ran the resulting .class file. CPython is a
    bit smarter than this (existing files, timestamps, etc), but these are minor
    differences, not really worthy of note.

    Jp
    Jp Calderone, Feb 9, 2004
    #14
  15. P.C.

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Pygame is very very slick (was Re: Had Phyton suggested)

    Josiah Carlson wrote:
    >
    > Check out: http://pygame.org/
    >
    > If your son is interested in making games, and you want him to learn
    > Python, I believe that link will help you.


    I just wanted to take a "me too" type of moment to say that what little
    I've seen in a brief investigation of Pygame has amazed me. The range
    of possibilities is incredible, and some of the games produced so far are
    very, very well done.

    "Pathological" is a great example. A couple of days after I found it, it seems
    a reviewer on Newsforge has found it as well, and among other things says "This
    game is more addictive than caffeine, more fun than an election year, and more
    frustrating than trying to find a real person to talk with behind the phone
    company's evil voice mail system...." (See the link from the pygame.org site
    for more.)

    Looking forward to playing around with Pygame myself...
    -Peter
    Peter Hansen, Feb 9, 2004
    #15
  16. P.C.

    Paul Prescod Guest

    Steve Horsley wrote:

    >
    >
    > Python:
    > edlin myprog.py
    > python myprog
    >
    > java:
    > edlin myprog.java
    > javac myprog.java
    > jave myprog


    So Python does two steps with one command and Java does not. Surely that
    is an argument in favour of Python!

    > As for not encouraging bad habits, I thought not until I came across a
    > 34k python script where every variable was global and not one procedure
    > accepted any arguments or returned any values. I suspect that the only
    > chopping into procedures was to keep the text on the page. I now think
    > that a real beginner needs a better push in the right direction.


    If the programmer doesn't understand why this kind of programming is
    bad, I expect that they will replicate it in Java with static variables
    and static functions. Even in Java it takes extra effort to pass
    parameters instead of referring to static variables.

    But I think someone would have to do some usability testing to decide
    this for real.

    Paul Prescod
    Paul Prescod, Feb 9, 2004
    #16
  17. P.C.

    P.C. Guest

    Hi

    I am still here, ----- thanks to those who ansvered , need to follow the
    links before I return.

    P.C.
    P.C., Feb 9, 2004
    #17
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