Have I been boned?

[rickman]

I guess I am just not very flexible about somethings, and I guess I am
not in tune with modern business practices, but I feel I have been
crapped on.

I am working with the Lattice development software about which I had
some reservations. One of which is the inevitable problems with
licensing files. But that can usually be worked out after a few phone
calls and maybe a wasted afternoon at worst.

To make sure of what I was buying, I exchanged a few emails with one
of the support people who told me that the package included ModelSim
for simulation. Having used this in the past, I decided to buy the
package for nearly $1k. But sometime between my ordering it and it
arriving, the licensing all changed.

I got a license file from the web without too much pain and it seemed
to have installed well. The tools ran ok. I have worked on the code
for the last week or so and I am getting ready for a long weekend of
simulation and test to iron out the bugs so I can try to make a
preliminary delivery of prototype hardware on Monday. When I tried to
run the ModelSim simulator yesterday it wasn't licensed.

So I have been emailing and searching on the web and it seems that the
changes in licensing are that ModelSim is no longer licensed and I
have to download the newer version of the software to use the Aldec
simulator. And of course, I have to learn how to use it!

So my weekend is not going to be very productive and there is little
chance I will have *anything* remotely functional to ship on Monday.

I guess what ticks me off more than anything is the seemingly cavalier
attitude that "we no longer OEM the Mentor Graphics tools" and I have
to adjust. I thought I had paid for a license of the ModelSim
software. I suppose the fine print in the agreement that I hadn't
even seen before they changed what had been sold to me tells me that
they can do exactly this.

Am I justified in feeling crapped on? I guess it doesn't matter how I
feel since that won't get my work done. I just wanted to vent a
little bit before I try to get this design working under the Xilinx
web pack tools.

 

[rickman]

I guess I am just not very flexible about somethings, and I guess I am
not in tune with modern business practices, but I feel I have been
crapped on.

I am working with the Lattice development software about which I had
some reservations. One of which is the inevitable problems with
licensing files. But that can usually be worked out after a few phone
calls and maybe a wasted afternoon at worst.

To make sure of what I was buying, I exchanged a few emails with one
of the support people who told me that the package included ModelSim
for simulation. Having used this in the past, I decided to buy the
package for nearly $1k. But sometime between my ordering it and it
arriving, the licensing all changed.

I got a license file from the web without too much pain and it seemed
to have installed well. The tools ran ok. I have worked on the code
for the last week or so and I am getting ready for a long weekend of
simulation and test to iron out the bugs so I can try to make a
preliminary delivery of prototype hardware on Monday. When I tried to
run the ModelSim simulator yesterday it wasn't licensed.

So I have been emailing and searching on the web and it seems that the
changes in licensing are that ModelSim is no longer licensed and I
have to download the newer version of the software to use the Aldec
simulator. And of course, I have to learn how to use it!

So my weekend is not going to be very productive and there is little
chance I will have *anything* remotely functional to ship on Monday.

I guess what ticks me off more than anything is the seemingly cavalier
attitude that "we no longer OEM the Mentor Graphics tools" and I have
to adjust. I thought I had paid for a license of the ModelSim
software. I suppose the fine print in the agreement that I hadn't
even seen before they changed what had been sold to me tells me that
they can do exactly this.

Am I justified in feeling crapped on? I guess it doesn't matter how I
feel since that won't get my work done. I just wanted to vent a
little bit before I try to get this design working under the Xilinx
web pack tools.

I forgot to mention that since I tried a new license file that
includes the Aldec simulator, I can't even start the tool. Some days
it's just no fun being an engineer... :^(

Rick

 

[radarman]

I guess I am just not very flexible about somethings, and I guess I am
not in tune with modern business practices, but I feel I have been
crapped on.

I am working with the Lattice development software about which I had
some reservations. One of which is the inevitable problems with
licensing files. But that can usually be worked out after a few phone
calls and maybe a wasted afternoon at worst.

To make sure of what I was buying, I exchanged a few emails with one
of the support people who told me that the package included ModelSim
for simulation. Having used this in the past, I decided to buy the
package for nearly $1k. But sometime between my ordering it and it
arriving, the licensing all changed.

I got a license file from the web without too much pain and it seemed
to have installed well. The tools ran ok. I have worked on the code
for the last week or so and I am getting ready for a long weekend of
simulation and test to iron out the bugs so I can try to make a
preliminary delivery of prototype hardware on Monday. When I tried to
run the ModelSim simulator yesterday it wasn't licensed.

So I have been emailing and searching on the web and it seems that the
changes in licensing are that ModelSim is no longer licensed and I
have to download the newer version of the software to use the Aldec
simulator. And of course, I have to learn how to use it!

So my weekend is not going to be very productive and there is little
chance I will have *anything* remotely functional to ship on Monday.

I guess what ticks me off more than anything is the seemingly cavalier
attitude that "we no longer OEM the Mentor Graphics tools" and I have
to adjust. I thought I had paid for a license of the ModelSim
software. I suppose the fine print in the agreement that I hadn't
even seen before they changed what had been sold to me tells me that
they can do exactly this.

Am I justified in feeling crapped on? I guess it doesn't matter how I
feel since that won't get my work done. I just wanted to vent a
little bit before I try to get this design working under the Xilinx
web pack tools.

If your out of pocket was $1k, then you probably wouldn't have gotten
much of a ModelSim license anyway. Xilinx wants something like $1,200
for the "full Xilinx Edition (XE) version" by itself, which is above
and beyond the necessary ISE license required to get that pricing. I'm
not sure how much Altera charges for their Altera Edition (AE). Note,
the "full XE/AE versions" aren't even close to PE, and all are
artificially slowed down (crippled so that simulations take longer the
less you pay) so as not to hurt SE licensing.

If you already have a license for either ISE or Quartus, you might
check on pricing for the XE/AE versions - assuming you can live with
the restrictions. Note, you can (I've done it) load other vendor
libraries (at least you can in the the XE version) as well as your own
libraries.

 

[rickman]

If your out of pocket was $1k, then you probably wouldn't have gotten
much of a ModelSim license anyway. Xilinx wants something like $1,200
for the "full Xilinx Edition (XE) version" by itself, which is above
and beyond the necessary ISE license required to get that pricing. I'm
not sure how much Altera charges for their Altera Edition (AE). Note,
the "full XE/AE versions" aren't even close to PE, and all are
artificially slowed down (crippled so that simulations take longer the
less you pay) so as not to hurt SE licensing.

Why does it matter how fast of a simulator I would have gotten. It
would have been a *working* simulator and I could have gotten my work
done. Instead, I am spending my day trying to get tools to work and
likely will not be able to do much this weekend. I *know* the
simulator would have been a crippled version (I like the way that the
vendors of the tools refer to the full speed version as "optimized"),
but it would have worked, that's all I need.

If you already have a license for either ISE or Quartus, you might
check on pricing for the XE/AE versions - assuming you can live with
the restrictions. Note, you can (I've done it) load other vendor
libraries (at least you can in the the XE version) as well as your own
libraries.

The last time I used webpack, it included the ModelSim simulator. I
see that now Xilinx has their own. I also have a licenced version of
the Altera tools around here somewhere. I need to dig that out and
see if I can get it to work.

If I thought they worked worth anything, I would try using some open
source simulation tools. But I just don't have the time currently to
mess with them.

 

[C.G.]

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by "can't even start the tool".
Error messages etc.

As regards being boned, I wouldn't think so. (Disappointed at not
getting what you thought you were getting, maybe). I find Aldec
functionally just as good as modelsim and over and above that, you can
use both Verilog and VHDL with just one license. (which of course, you
won't appreciate unless you need it). If you have any scripts, you can
port modelsim scripts to Aldec with little or no effort.

If you post your error messages, maybe I can give you a quick tip. I've
been using ActiveHDL and ispLever for over a year now. Are you using
ispLever 7.0 or 7.1?

 

[rickman]

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by "can't even start the tool".
Error messages etc.

Just that, the software will not even come up now. The message is,
"Information in file ispsys.ini does not match the system. Please call
Lattice Technical Support for help." There is a thread on the Lattice
forums about it and they offer some suggestions, but no real cure.

At this point I have tried everything suggested including uninstalling
and reinstalling the tools.

As regards being boned, I wouldn't think so. (Disappointed at not
getting what you thought you were getting, maybe).

"thought you were getting"??? I exchanged emails to *verify* what I
was getting before I purchased the package. If I didn't need a
simulator, I am pretty sure I could have used the starter package. If
I had received the order before the end of last month I would have
been able to get a license file for it. But somehow the fact that
their agreement with Mentor ended last month means that Lattice does
not need to fulfill their contract with me.

I find Aldec
functionally just as good as modelsim and over and above that, you can
use both Verilog and VHDL with just one license. (which of course, you
won't appreciate unless you need it). If you have any scripts, you can
port modelsim scripts to Aldec with little or no effort.

Certainly I will give the Aldec tool a try... if I ever get the
program running again.

If you post your error messages, maybe I can give you a quick tip. I've
been using ActiveHDL and ispLever for over a year now. Are you using
ispLever 7.0 or 7.1?

7.0. running under Win2000 SP4


And today is getting to be one of those days when I wished I had
majored in art...

 

[C.G.]

Just that, the software will not even come up now. The message is,
"Information in file ispsys.ini does not match the system. Please call
Lattice Technical Support for help." There is a thread on the Lattice
forums about it and they offer some suggestions, but no real cure.

Here's my ispsys.ini, if its any help. I run Windows 2003 Server (which
Lattice claim isn't supported, but it works for me. Well, except for the
tcl scripting and a few other little things). Maybe Win 2000 is the
problem. My laptop installation (Win-XP) runs fine too.

[Settings]
DefaultProduct = 7.0
DefaultProductName = ispLEVER
URL="http://www.latticesemi.com/news"
;
DefaultDevice = LFXP10C-5F388C
;Inserted for 10.0 BETA
;DefaultDevice = LFX1200B-05F900C
;
;To change default device, need to change the following files:
; ispsys.ini
; virtual.sds (DieName, [Generic Devices] section, default FDK)
; blank.lci (default settings in [Device] and [Revision] section

IniFileName=lsc_7_0.ini

[Default Devices]
GDF = ispGDX160VA-5Q208

Suggestion:
Given that your work is obviously urgent, why not give Aldec a quick
call (they should be in the office for another few hours I expect). Tell
them your problem and ask for a 20-day evaluation license for their full
version (which you can download from the Aldec web-site. But its node
and and cycle limited without the eval license). I've found Aldec very
helpful and supportive in the past. Then, next week when you have more
time put some pressure on your local Lattice FAE.

Other suggestion:
Have you a Win-XP maschine anywhere?

Regards,
Charles

 

[C.G.]

One more suggestion:

Can you run Aldec ActiveHDL without going through ispLever. The
executable should be called avhdl.exe

Regards,
Charles

 

[rickman]

Just that, the software will not even come up now. The message is,
"Information in file ispsys.ini does not match the system. Please call
Lattice Technical Support for help." There is a thread on the Lattice
forums about it and they offer some suggestions, but no real cure.

Here's my ispsys.ini, if its any help. I run Windows 2003 Server (which
Lattice claim isn't supported, but it works for me. Well, except for the
tcl scripting and a few other little things). Maybe Win 2000 is the
problem. My laptop installation (Win-XP) runs fine too.

[Settings]
DefaultProduct = 7.0
DefaultProductName = ispLEVER
URL="http://www.latticesemi.com/news"
;
DefaultDevice = LFXP10C-5F388C
;Inserted for 10.0 BETA
;DefaultDevice = LFX1200B-05F900C
;
;To change default device, need to change the following files:
; ispsys.ini
; virtual.sds (DieName, [Generic Devices] section, default FDK)
; blank.lci (default settings in [Device] and [Revision] section

IniFileName=lsc_7_0.ini

[Default Devices]
GDF = ispGDX160VA-5Q208

Suggestion:
Given that your work is obviously urgent, why not give Aldec a quick
call (they should be in the office for another few hours I expect). Tell
them your problem and ask for a 20-day evaluation license for their full
version (which you can download from the Aldec web-site. But its node
and and cycle limited without the eval license). I've found Aldec very
helpful and supportive in the past. Then, next week when you have more
time put some pressure on your local Lattice FAE.

Other suggestion:
Have you a Win-XP maschine anywhere?

Regards,
Charles

Thanks for the help. My FAE seems to have disappeared, so I called
the support line. I got someone who barely spoke English. Of course
this is going the slow route and he wants me to send in my license
file and other stuff. So I don't expect to hear from them for a few
days.

Your ini file seems to match mine exactly. I don't think the problem
is the ini file. It is the "system" that it is comparing it to. When
I looked inside of the lsc_7_0.ini file, there are lots of paths.
They are all wrong. Instead of pointing to C:\ispTOOLS7_0\..., they
all point to C:\isptools\... That is not where I installed anything
and of course, none of these paths exist except for the root path, C:
\isptools. The only subdir under that is ispvmsystem.

I don't want to spend my weekend installing and uninstalling the
Lattice tools. I seem to be able to run the Xilinx tools ok and other
than generating a bit file, this should be just as good for my
purposes.

I will say that my customer had questioned my choice of FPGA vendors.
I told him that I didn't see any issues with the tools that I couldn't
find a work around for. It didn't occur to me that I would need to
work around the tools not running.

Rick

 

[ALuPin]

Hi rickman,

do you have administrator rights for the directory in which the ini
file is stored ?

Some time ago I faced that problem and found out that as an user
without administrator rights
the ini file in the directory "lsc_env" could not be written.

Rgds
Andre

 

[rickman]

Hi rickman,

do you have administrator rights for the directory in which the ini
file is stored ?

Some time ago I faced that problem and found out that as an user
without administrator rights
the ini file in the directory "lsc_env" could not be written.

Yes, that is one of the things they talked about in the thread at the
Lattice forum. Actually, I got the issue resolved. My local FAE was
done for the day on Friday and I wasn't getting any more emails from
him. So I called the support line. They did the usual thing of
asking me to email a bunch of info and the various files. Then I got
an email a bit later asking for more files. I figured they were going
to study it to death and it was nearing quitting time at their office
on the West coast. But then around 11 PM my time I got a reply that
told me to uninstall every old version of the tool in spite of the
fact that they install in separate directories.

Believe it or not, that didn't fix the problem either... not exactly.
Once *all* of the other version directories were gone and I
reinstalled the software, I clicked on the desktop icon it couldn't
find the executable. Then the light bulb went off and I realized that
whole problem was that the desktop icon was still pointing to the
starter version of 7.0!!! I didn't realize that the software doesn't
make a desktop icon and so it was never updated.

So I guess that needs to be added to that forum thread in case someone
else has the same problem.

I will say that I would have never resolved this if support hadn't
worked late and spurred me on to reinstall one more time. I have to
thank Peter Chang for his extra effort in this case.

However, this still didn't get me a working simulator. I had to use
the Xilinx tools to simulate my design and will only use the Lattice
tools to generate the bit file. I have pointed out the absurdity of
the situation of them selling me a set of software that they won't
license and they are willing to give me my money back. But to tell
you the truth, I am not very happy with the Xilinx ISE simulator. It
seems like it is a rather immature product with lots of bugs and
seriously lacking in the user interface. Also, many of the error
reports are very cryptic, things like, "invalid syntax in this
environment" or something like that. I guess it is worth what I paid
for it though... :^)

Rick

 

[Brian Davis]

The last time I used webpack, it included the ModelSim simulator. I
see that now Xilinx has their own. I also have a licenced version of
the Altera tools around here somewhere. I need to dig that out and
see if I can get it to work.

If you're looking for a low cost VHDL simulator, and are used to
Modelsim, I'd suggest trying VHDL Simili.

I've been happily using the standard version at work for a few years
now.

I started using at home this back in the days when the free version
was command line only and unrestricted; unfortunately, the current
free
version is now crippleware.

The download is < 10 Mb, the licensing is automated online,
you can and be up and running with a trial license in short order.

One year node locked licenses cost $300/700 USD for the
standard/professional versions.

Pro has speedups and more debug features over the standard version
( single step, force/release, code coverage ), but the standard
version
works just fine for testbench based development:
http://www.symphonyeda.com/editions.htm

I'd suggest plugging a spare network card in your PC and licensing
to that MAC address. ( Stay away from Linksys USB network adapters for
this purpose, XP can stop recognizing them due to driver problems )

Brian

 

[nemgreen]

 If you're looking for a low cost VHDL simulator, and are used to
Modelsim, I'd suggest trying VHDL Simili.

 I've been happily using the standard version at work for a few years
now.

 I started using at home this back in the days when the free version
was command line only and unrestricted; unfortunately, the current
free
version is now crippleware.

 The download is  < 10 Mb, the licensing is automated online,
you can and be up and running with a trial license in short order.

One year node locked licenses cost $300/700 USD for the
standard/professional versions.

 Pro has speedups and more debug features over the standard version
( single step, force/release, code coverage ), but the standard
version
works just fine for testbench based development:
 http://www.symphonyeda.com/editions.htm

 I'd suggest plugging a spare network card in your PC and licensing
to that MAC address. ( Stay away from Linksys USB network adapters for
this purpose, XP can stop recognizing them due to driver problems )

Brian

There's always the free ModelSim PE Student Edition you can use:

http://www.model.com/resources/student_edition/download.asp

 

[Dave]

Just out of curiosity, did anyone else think that this message was
spam when they first read the subject line, or was that just me?

 

[rickman]

Just out of curiosity, did anyone else think that this message was
spam when they first read the subject line, or was that just me?

But you read it anyway! What does that say about you???

;^)