HELP: ASP & Javascript testing procedures & methods

Discussion in 'ASP General' started by Andrew Wan, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. Andrew Wan

    Andrew Wan Guest

    I have been developing web applications with ASP & Javascript for a long
    time. I have been using Visual Studio 2003.NET. While VS2003 is okay for
    intellisense of ASP & Javascript, it's still not that great.

    One of the cons of ASP & Javascript is that they're both interpreted, which
    means one has twice the amount of work to do interms of syntax checking &
    semantic/runtime checking.

    Another bad thing is that ASP & Javascript doesn't have real object-oriented
    features, like public/private members of classes. All functions are public
    and accessible which causes bugs.

    Does anyone know good testing procedures & methods of ASP & Javascript?

    I have thought about 2 procedures where testing is split into Javascript
    Client-side testing, & ASP Server-side testing. ASP testing can be done
    using AJAX to see if "Page cannot be displayed" or the correct results are
    returned. Javascript testing can be done to see if GUI-related things are
    displayed properly.

    This is still a lot of work, and the test scripts will fail if the main
    webpage code changes. There must be better testing procedures & methods for
    ASP & Javascript that is widely known & used.
     
    Andrew Wan, Apr 17, 2007
    #1
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  2. Andrew Wan

    Evertjan. Guest

    Andrew Wan wrote on 17 apr 2007 in
    microsoft.public.inetserver.asp.general:

    > I have been developing web applications with ASP & Javascript for a
    > long time. I have been using Visual Studio 2003.NET. While VS2003 is
    > okay for intellisense of ASP & Javascript, it's still not that great.
    >
    > One of the cons of ASP & Javascript is that they're both interpreted,


    No, ASP is not a language but a platform.

    What language under ASP are you using?

    > which means one has twice the amount of work to do interms of syntax
    > checking & semantic/runtime checking.


    No, that has nothing to do with interpreting/compiling.

    A compilesd programme can give you the same amount of headaches.

    In fact sort of compiling is done at or just before runtime by most
    modern script engines.

    > Another bad thing is that ASP & Javascript doesn't have real
    > object-oriented features, like public/private members of classes. All
    > functions are public and accessible which causes bugs.


    You could think it is bad, I think it is just right for the purposes
    intended.

    > Does anyone know good testing procedures & methods of ASP &
    > Javascript?


    Yes, modular scripting, setting stopping and logging breakpoints,
    doing some logging on the realtime use and errors,
    listening to the end users, and inviting them to report errors,
    and especcially using your brain.

    > I have thought about 2 procedures where testing is split into
    > Javascript Client-side testing, & ASP Server-side testing. ASP testing
    > can be done using AJAX to see if "Page cannot be displayed" or the
    > correct results are returned. Javascript testing can be done to see if
    > GUI-related things are displayed properly.


    I doubt that. On all the different browsers and versions?

    How would you do AJAX on a page that is not(!!) run?
    Just testing if an .asp pseudo-img is downloaded by clientide javascript
    will do.

    > This is still a lot of work, and the test scripts will fail if the
    > main webpage code changes. There must be better testing procedures &
    > methods for ASP & Javascript that is widely known & used.


    You want to take away all the joy that complex debugging gives?

    Thankfully impossible, methinks.


    --
    Evertjan.
    The Netherlands.
    (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
     
    Evertjan., Apr 17, 2007
    #2
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  3. Andrew Wan

    Andrew Wan Guest

    >>
    >> One of the cons of ASP & Javascript is that they're both interpreted,

    >
    > No, ASP is not a language but a platform.
    >
    > What language under ASP are you using?
    >


    Sorry, when I said ASP I meant VBScript.

    >> which means one has twice the amount of work to do interms of syntax
    >> checking & semantic/runtime checking.

    >
    > No, that has nothing to do with interpreting/compiling.
    >


    > A compilesd programme can give you the same amount of headaches.
    >
    > In fact sort of compiling is done at or just before runtime by most
    > modern script engines.
    >


    Yes, I know IIS does some compiling/running but only when it runs.

    >> Another bad thing is that ASP & Javascript doesn't have real
    >> object-oriented features, like public/private members of classes. All
    >> functions are public and accessible which causes bugs.

    >
    > You could think it is bad, I think it is just right for the purposes
    > intended.
    >


    VBScript is good for small scripts. However it gets messy when 10 developers
    have contributed to hundreds of ASP/Javascript pages for one webapp.

    >> Does anyone know good testing procedures & methods of ASP &
    >> Javascript?

    >
    > Yes, modular scripting, setting stopping and logging breakpoints,
    > doing some logging on the realtime use and errors,
    > listening to the end users, and inviting them to report errors,
    > and especcially using your brain.
    >


    Yes, that is by manually going through clicking on the javascript submit
    buttons to form post to a asp page, etc. It is still all manual. What I was
    looking for is automated testing, like JUnit and use of assert()
    functions... which VBScript doesn't have. That's why am looking for better
    ways that are similar or automated VBScript/Javascript testing.

    >> I have thought about 2 procedures where testing is split into
    >> Javascript Client-side testing, & ASP Server-side testing. ASP testing
    >> can be done using AJAX to see if "Page cannot be displayed" or the
    >> correct results are returned. Javascript testing can be done to see if
    >> GUI-related things are displayed properly.

    >
    > I doubt that. On all the different browsers and versions?
    >


    For each piece of functionality, write a testcase for expected output.
    Ofcourse we cannot test graphically but only search for certain strings on
    the response text (eg. page loaded, etc). If someone didn't test their ASP
    page then usually a syntax error will result in a "Page cannot be displayed"
    page. It would be good for this to be automated to search for such pages.
    Same for javascript,..

    > How would you do AJAX on a page that is not(!!) run?
    > Just testing if an .asp pseudo-img is downloaded by clientide javascript
    > will do.
    >

    Yep, AJAX an asp page, parse the responseXML or responseText to see expected
    output (ignoring layout/graphical issues). That will test VBScript syntax &
    server-side logic.


    >> This is still a lot of work, and the test scripts will fail if the
    >> main webpage code changes. There must be better testing procedures &
    >> methods for ASP & Javascript that is widely known & used.

    >
    > You want to take away all the joy that complex debugging gives?
    >


    Debugging & testing is ok and managable for a certain sized webapp. But when
    it gets very big, then it's very time consuming, especially repetitive after
    every test release..
     
    Andrew Wan, Apr 17, 2007
    #3
  4. Re: ASP & Javascript testing procedures & methods

    "Andrew Wan" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I have been developing web applications with ASP & Javascript for a long
    > time. I have been using Visual Studio 2003.NET. While VS2003 is okay for
    > intellisense of ASP & Javascript, it's still not that great.


    True but there isn't anything much better.

    >
    > One of the cons of ASP & Javascript is that they're both interpreted,

    which
    > means one has twice the amount of work to do interms of syntax checking &
    > semantic/runtime checking.


    You mean VBScript and Javascript I suspect. If you are going to use
    languages that don't have strict type checking then yes you have more work
    to do. Use another language. If you control the server platform get
    yourself a copy of VB6 and move server side complexity into a compiled DLL.

    >
    > Another bad thing is that ASP & Javascript doesn't have real

    object-oriented
    > features, like public/private members of classes. All functions are public
    > and accessible which causes bugs.


    You're just not using them right. Both VBScript and Javascript support the
    creation object types with Private variables and functions.

    >
    > Does anyone know good testing procedures & methods of ASP & Javascript?
    >


    For well encapsulated objects you could consider building a unit testing
    suite other than that there is no substitute for manual test scripts or
    expensive testing software.

    >
    > I have thought about 2 procedures where testing is split into Javascript
    > Client-side testing, & ASP Server-side testing. ASP testing can be done
    > using AJAX to see if "Page cannot be displayed" or the correct results are
    > returned. Javascript testing can be done to see if GUI-related things are
    > displayed properly.
    >
    > This is still a lot of work, and the test scripts will fail if the main
    > webpage code changes. There must be better testing procedures & methods

    for
    > ASP & Javascript that is widely known & used.
    >


    It's all down to management, there is no silver bullet.
     
    Anthony Jones, Apr 17, 2007
    #4
  5. "Andrew Wan" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > >> Another bad thing is that ASP & Javascript doesn't have real
    > >> object-oriented features, like public/private members of classes. All
    > >> functions are public and accessible which causes bugs.

    > >
    > > You could think it is bad, I think it is just right for the purposes
    > > intended.
    > >

    >
    > VBScript is good for small scripts. However it gets messy when 10

    developers
    > have contributed to hundreds of ASP/Javascript pages for one webapp.
    >


    I don't agree. You can still modularize VBScript in the same way you would
    in any other language. Hence the problems of change control are the same
    for VBScript as they are for VB6, C++ or any other language. You are using
    Source control?

    > >> Does anyone know good testing procedures & methods of ASP &
    > >> Javascript?

    > >
    > > Yes, modular scripting, setting stopping and logging breakpoints,
    > > doing some logging on the realtime use and errors,
    > > listening to the end users, and inviting them to report errors,
    > > and especcially using your brain.
    > >

    >
    > Yes, that is by manually going through clicking on the javascript submit
    > buttons to form post to a asp page, etc. It is still all manual. What I

    was
    > looking for is automated testing, like JUnit and use of assert()
    > functions... which VBScript doesn't have. That's why am looking for better
    > ways that are similar or automated VBScript/Javascript testing.
    >
    >
    > >> I have thought about 2 procedures where testing is split into
    > >> Javascript Client-side testing, & ASP Server-side testing. ASP testing
    > >> can be done using AJAX to see if "Page cannot be displayed" or the
    > >> correct results are returned. Javascript testing can be done to see if
    > >> GUI-related things are displayed properly.

    > >
    > > I doubt that. On all the different browsers and versions?
    > >

    >
    > For each piece of functionality, write a testcase for expected output.
    > Ofcourse we cannot test graphically but only search for certain strings on
    > the response text (eg. page loaded, etc). If someone didn't test their ASP
    > page then usually a syntax error will result in a "Page cannot be

    displayed"
    > page. It would be good for this to be automated to search for such pages.
    > Same for javascript,..
    >


    If you want this level of testing you need to develop your app around the
    testing. For example you can seperate the output of data from it's
    presentation by having processing pages generate XML instead of HTML. Tests
    can post to and receive from these pages XML which should be invariant. XSL
    or other tools can be used to transform the XML to a presentation. If that
    presentation needs to change the processing tests remain unaffected.
     
    Anthony Jones, Apr 17, 2007
    #5
  6. Andrew Wan

    Andrew Wan Guest

    Re: ASP & Javascript testing procedures & methods

    > You mean VBScript and Javascript I suspect. If you are going to use
    > languages that don't have strict type checking then yes you have more work
    > to do. Use another language. If you control the server platform get
    > yourself a copy of VB6 and move server side complexity into a compiled
    > DLL.


    Compiled DLL? Tell me more about this please. Is this like the class file in
    ASP.NET? Will it be able to still do XSL transformations using MSXML?

    > You're just not using them right. Both VBScript and Javascript support
    > the
    > creation object types with Private variables and functions.


    True...

    > For well encapsulated objects you could consider building a unit testing
    > suite other than that there is no substitute for manual test scripts or
    > expensive testing software.


    Please tell me more about building a unit testing suite.

    > It's all down to management, there is no silver bullet.


    True. But consider a very large webapp already programmed, and it's been
    passed down to a new team... and previous developers have left. And already
    there's no standards/management and everyone has already done their own
    thing.... Very messy.
     
    Andrew Wan, Apr 17, 2007
    #6
  7. Andrew Wan

    Evertjan. Guest

    Andrew Wan wrote on 17 apr 2007 in
    microsoft.public.inetserver.asp.general:

    >>>
    >>> One of the cons of ASP & Javascript is that they're both
    >>> interpreted,

    >>
    >> No, ASP is not a language but a platform.
    >>
    >> What language under ASP are you using?
    >>

    >
    > Sorry, when I said ASP I meant VBScript.


    I thought so. [not the sorry, but the vbs ;-) ]

    Serverside jscript is a good alternative though,
    more compact, object oriented, much more imaginative.

    Why focus on vbscript?

    [....]
    > VBScript is good for small scripts. However it gets messy when 10
    > developers have contributed to hundreds of ASP/Javascript pages for
    > one webapp.


    There is no need to use vbscript at all.
    Jscrip will do fine.

    It will only get messy if you do not programme modular,
    so making black box functions that are thoroughly documented, tested, and
    which bowel workings are not of interest anymore to the outside
    programmer.

    Yes, I know that needs a firm hrip by the head programmer, but that is
    not different in a compiling environment.

    >
    > Yes, that is by manually going through clicking on the javascript
    > submit buttons to form post to a asp page, etc. It is still all
    > manual. What I was looking for is automated testing, like JUnit and
    > use of assert() functions... which VBScript doesn't have. That's why
    > am looking for better ways that are similar or automated
    > VBScript/Javascript testing.


    You can build that in using testing modules that you build yourself.

    >>> I have thought about 2 procedures where testing is split into
    >>> Javascript Client-side testing, & ASP Server-side testing. ASP
    >>> testing can be done using AJAX to see if "Page cannot be displayed"
    >>> or the correct results are returned. Javascript testing can be done
    >>> to see if GUI-related things are displayed properly.

    >>
    >> I doubt that. On all the different browsers and versions?
    >>


    > Debugging & testing is ok and managable for a certain sized webapp.
    > But when it gets very big, then it's very time consuming, especially
    > repetitive after every test release..


    No it is not, I mean it should not be, when you see building the test
    environment as a logical part of the final site building.

    And in the end, the testing should be done by user, as the developer
    knows too much about the intention of the project to make those logical
    sound "mistakes" the user makes. That is why the debugging code should be
    part of the end product and enable logging and error reporting on
    production run.

    This is valid for all software development:
    testing, testing, updating, testing ..., ad libitum et ad nauseam.



    --
    Evertjan.
    The Netherlands.
    (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
     
    Evertjan., Apr 17, 2007
    #7
  8. Re: ASP & Javascript testing procedures & methods

    "Andrew Wan" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > > You mean VBScript and Javascript I suspect. If you are going to use
    > > languages that don't have strict type checking then yes you have more

    work
    > > to do. Use another language. If you control the server platform get
    > > yourself a copy of VB6 and move server side complexity into a compiled
    > > DLL.

    >
    > Compiled DLL? Tell me more about this please.


    VBScript is very similar to VB6 (now no longer on offer from MS since its
    been replaced by VB.NET which is now know simply as VB). VB6 though can
    compile code native machine code, supports typed variables and allows access
    to the windows API.

    You'd have to ask yourself whether it's not better just to go ASP.NET
    instead.

    > Is this like the class file in ASP.NET?


    Nope nothing like at all.

    >Will it be able to still do XSL transformations using MSXML?


    Yes.

    >
    > > You're just not using them right. Both VBScript and Javascript support
    > > the
    > > creation object types with Private variables and functions.

    >
    > True...
    >
    > > For well encapsulated objects you could consider building a unit testing
    > > suite other than that there is no substitute for manual test scripts or
    > > expensive testing software.

    >
    > Please tell me more about building a unit testing suite.
    >


    See http://www.junit.org/index.htm

    Unfortunately in view of the what you have said below it's way way too late
    for this to help. Unit testing is only effective if the modules have been
    built with the need to be unit tested in mind.

    > > It's all down to management, there is no silver bullet.

    >
    > True. But consider a very large webapp already programmed, and it's been
    > passed down to a new team... and previous developers have left. And

    already
    > there's no standards/management and everyone has already done their own
    > thing.... Very messy.
    >


    Yep. I'm afraid a phrase containing the words 'Creek' and 'Paddle' comes to
    mind.

    If you have a large uncontrolled organically grown app on your hands that
    doesn't already support the sort of industrial strength testing you seem to
    be looking for the chances are slim you can do much about it now.
     
    Anthony Jones, Apr 17, 2007
    #8
  9. Andrew Wan

    Sam Hobbs Guest

    "Anthony Jones" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > If you want this level of testing you need to develop your app around the
    > testing.


    Yes, unfortuantely. As someone experienced with old-style batch programming,
    I know that most modern interactive systems are inadequate environments for
    testing. Software should be developed with a life-cycle philosophy including
    testing but it would really help if the environments such as Windows and ASP
    were to include support of such requirements.
     
    Sam Hobbs, Jul 15, 2007
    #9
  10. Andrew Wan

    Sam Hobbs Guest

    "Evertjan." <> wrote in message
    news:Xns99157DDDCB5A2eejj99@194.109.133.242...
    >
    >> Debugging & testing is ok and managable for a certain sized webapp.
    >> But when it gets very big, then it's very time consuming, especially
    >> repetitive after every test release..

    >
    > No it is not, I mean it should not be, when you see building the test
    > environment as a logical part of the final site building.


    I think you are both saying the same thing; that is, that testing needs to
    be designed and automated.

    > And in the end, the testing should be done by user


    No. It is often a mistake to depend on the user . Users need to have the
    opportunity to test, but not depended on to test.

    > as the developer
    > knows too much about the intention of the project to make those logical
    > sound "mistakes" the user makes. That is why the debugging code should be
    > part of the end product and enable logging and error reporting on
    > production run.


    Test cases should be designed by the user if you can get them to do that.
    Many users don't have the imagination to develop test cases. Since the
    developers are familiar with the requirements and specifications and
    implementation details, they are much better qualified to develop test
    cases. Some programmers will be good at it and some will not be. That is
    likely an important difference between good programmers and the others.
     
    Sam Hobbs, Jul 15, 2007
    #10
  11. Andrew Wan

    Evertjan. Guest

    Sam Hobbs wrote on 16 jul 2007 in
    microsoft.public.inetserver.asp.general:

    > "Evertjan." <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns99157DDDCB5A2eejj99@194.109.133.242...
    >>
    >>> Debugging & testing is ok and managable for a certain sized webapp.
    >>> But when it gets very big, then it's very time consuming, especially
    >>> repetitive after every test release..

    >>
    >> No it is not, I mean it should not be, when you see building the test
    >> environment as a logical part of the final site building.

    >
    > I think you are both saying the same thing; that is, that testing
    > needs to be designed and automated.
    >


    You are responding on a posting of 3 months ago, on

    Date: 17 Apr 2007 10:24:24 GMT

    Fine for you, but I am not going along.


    --
    Evertjan.
    The Netherlands.
    (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
     
    Evertjan., Jul 15, 2007
    #11
  12. Andrew Wan

    Sam Hobbs Guest

    "Evertjan." <> wrote in message
    news:Xns996F740DCDAFeejj99@194.109.133.242...
    >
    > You are responding on a posting of 3 months ago, on
    >
    > Date: 17 Apr 2007 10:24:24 GMT


    Yes, I know.

    > Fine for you, but I am not going along.


    Okay.
     
    Sam Hobbs, Jul 15, 2007
    #12
  13. "Sam Hobbs" <_change_social_to_socal> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Evertjan." <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns996F740DCDAFeejj99@194.109.133.242...
    > >
    > > You are responding on a posting of 3 months ago, on
    > >
    > > Date: 17 Apr 2007 10:24:24 GMT

    >
    > Yes, I know.
    >
    > > Fine for you, but I am not going along.

    >
    > Okay.
    >
    >


    I rarely agree with evertjan on comments on how people post but honestly if
    you expect a response you'll need to quote more of the original thread.

    --
    Anthony Jones - MVP ASP/ASP.NET
     
    Anthony Jones, Jul 17, 2007
    #13
  14. Andrew Wan

    Evertjan. Guest

    Anthony Jones wrote on 17 jul 2007 in
    microsoft.public.inetserver.asp.general:

    > I rarely agree with evertjan on comments on how people post but
    > honestly if you expect a response you'll need to quote more of the
    > original thread.
    >


    I often agree with Anthony as I also do in this instance, but I hate to say
    so wih this amount of crossposting. He could become famous.

    ;-)

    --
    Evertjan.
    The Netherlands.
    (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
     
    Evertjan., Jul 17, 2007
    #14
  15. Andrew Wan

    Sam Hobbs Guest

    "Anthony Jones" <> wrote in message
    news:uM$...
    >
    > I rarely agree with evertjan on comments on how people post but honestly
    > if
    > you expect a response you'll need to quote more of the original thread.


    Look again; I did. It was evertjan that removed the relevant text.
     
    Sam Hobbs, Jul 18, 2007
    #15
  16. Andrew Wan

    Sam Hobbs Guest

    "Evertjan." <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9970D195CD470eejj99@194.109.133.242...
    >
    > I often agree with Anthony as I also do in this instance, but I hate to
    > say
    > so wih this amount of crossposting. He could become famous.


    Who is "He"? Are you speaking in the third person, since you are the first
    one that responded to the thread.

    Or perhaps you intended to be critical of me and this was your attempt to to
    do that. If so then I will assume my previous comments were accurate, but if
    that is the explanation then it is unfortunate that you feel a need to
    respond in this manner.
     
    Sam Hobbs, Jul 18, 2007
    #16
  17. Andrew Wan

    Evertjan. Guest

    Sam Hobbs wrote on 18 jul 2007 in microsoft.public.scripting.jscript:

    > "Evertjan." <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns9970D195CD470eejj99@194.109.133.242...
    >>
    >> I often agree with Anthony as I also do in this instance, but I hate
    >> to say
    >> so wih this amount of crossposting. He could become famous.

    >
    > Who is "He"? Are you speaking in the third person, since you are the
    > first one that responded to the thread.
    >
    > Or perhaps you intended to be critical of me and this was your attempt
    > to to do that. If so then I will assume my previous comments were
    > accurate, but if that is the explanation then it is unfortunate that
    > you feel a need to respond in this manner.


    No, this is something personal, Anthony seems to have with me, and is felt
    asplayful from my side, nothing to di with you, Sam.


    --
    Evertjan.
    The Netherlands.
    (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
     
    Evertjan., Jul 18, 2007
    #17
  18. "Evertjan." <> wrote in message
    news:Xns997193AFFF093eejj99@194.109.133.242...
    > Sam Hobbs wrote on 18 jul 2007 in microsoft.public.scripting.jscript:
    >
    > > "Evertjan." <> wrote in message
    > > news:Xns9970D195CD470eejj99@194.109.133.242...
    > >>
    > >> I often agree with Anthony as I also do in this instance, but I hate
    > >> to say
    > >> so wih this amount of crossposting. He could become famous.

    > >
    > > Who is "He"? Are you speaking in the third person, since you are the
    > > first one that responded to the thread.
    > >
    > > Or perhaps you intended to be critical of me and this was your attempt
    > > to to do that. If so then I will assume my previous comments were
    > > accurate, but if that is the explanation then it is unfortunate that
    > > you feel a need to respond in this manner.

    >
    > No, this is something personal, Anthony seems to have with me, and is felt
    > asplayful from my side, nothing to di with you, Sam.
    >


    Yes just some tongue in cheek banter. (I'm not actually very good at it but
    I try).

    --
    Anthony Jones - MVP ASP/ASP.NET
     
    Anthony Jones, Jul 19, 2007
    #18
  19. "Sam Hobbs" <_change_social_to_socal> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Anthony Jones" <> wrote in message
    > news:uM$...
    > >
    > > I rarely agree with evertjan on comments on how people post but honestly
    > > if
    > > you expect a response you'll need to quote more of the original thread.

    >
    > Look again; I did. It was evertjan that removed the relevant text.
    >
    >


    Nope sorry I read the thread from the beginning, I don't no what you're on
    about. I'm not prepared to comment even on my own comments when I can't
    remember the context properly.


    --
    Anthony Jones - MVP ASP/ASP.NET
     
    Anthony Jones, Jul 19, 2007
    #19
  20. Andrew Wan

    Sam Hobbs Guest

    "Evertjan." <> wrote in message
    news:Xns997193AFFF093eejj99@194.109.133.242...
    > Sam Hobbs wrote on 18 jul 2007 in microsoft.public.scripting.jscript:
    >
    > No, this is something personal, Anthony seems to have with me, and is felt
    > asplayful from my side, nothing to di with you, Sam.


    Very sorry. Once I know you, I am sure we can have a few jokes too.
     
    Sam Hobbs, Jul 20, 2007
    #20
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