Help Request about 4.01 Strict

E

Ed Mulroy

(There are just as many tutorials on designing sites
with tables...)

Now that you mention it, there probably are. I just never looked for them
before :)

.. Ed
 
E

Ed Mulroy

Outlook Express is a Windows thing. Newsgroups pre-dated Windows.

Before that I used whatever text editor was around (often Wordstar under
CPM).

.. Ed
 
E

Ed Mulroy

Left align is the default. Why would you need to state it?

To get it to display correctly. The tables are next to each other.

If set in the table header then the two columns flow down side by side.
Should the browser window be too narrow, a horizontal scroll bar appears,
allowing you access to the hidden content.

If set by CSS then should the window be too narrow, half of the page
dissapears - relocated below the bottom of the window. The size of window
at which the display of the page is effected is also larger than when the
<table align= is used.

.. Ed
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Neredbojias said:
To further the education of mankind, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"


...Then Neredbojias walks up with 100 tons of dynamite and says,
"Move it, cretin." Toothpicks in 10 seconds.

Har! Sounds like a title for the next Nicolas Cage movie...
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Martin said:
Hey, give a man a chance!!! :)

10 ... 9 ... 8 ...
I've taken your earlier tip and changed my default browser colours to
something suitably nasty, so that such problems are highlighted in
the future.

'Tis amusing to see just how many sites there really are with a
forgotten background color assignment...
Tried that, but T wanted white. You can't argue with an artist. :)

Well, you could sit down with him, bring up the site, grimace and
squint, and holler "My eyes! My eyes!!!"
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Ed Mulroy wrote:

[TOP POSTING FIXED]
The tabs are pleasant. However when it locks up and you have to cancel the
process to get rid of it all the pages shown in tabs are closed along with
the page in which Adobe Acrobat failed. My current defense for this is that
when encountering a link to a PDF file, copy the link, start an instance of
IE and open it in an IE window.

Firstly, the only issue with PDF was years ago with Acrobat 5.x and the
issue was with Adobe not Firefox, Acrobat 6.x and now 7.x has no issue.
I have had no problems with PDFs in Firefox.

As to lockups, how is Firefox lockups requiring a kill process worse
than IE lockups that at the very least kills the Desktop and the worst
brings down the OS! I do not see your argument here.

What is most annoying however is the all too common progression of your
thread. "My deprecated markup does not validate" NG informs you where
the trouble lies and the reply is "But I want the deprecated markup"
Well then your markup will not validate as strict and also will loose
out on many of the advantages of new approaches to design. It begs the
question why folks ask questions when they really do not want to hear
answers?
 
E

Ed Mulroy

Think about this, why are your links in a table at all? They are just a
list right?

What is it that am I missing here?

The concept is for a left columnar menu consisting of buttons. That menu is
currently implemented as a table. In response to your comment I have tried
doing it with a list but without success.

An <li> isn't really a block element. I can't seem to specify margin 0 on
top and left and margin 1 on the right and bottom with a specified color to
get the button appearance that I wanted.

The current design uses a <td> which defines a cell to which I provide these
things.

text-align: left;
padding-left: 0.5ex
vertical-align: middle;
background: #E8E8FF;
border: solid 0 #000080;
border-bottom-width: 1px;
border-right-width: 1px;

Which comes out something like this (may not present exactly as intended
depending upon the font setting in your news reader):

::Menu Item A |
-------------------'
::Menu Item B |
-------------------'
::Menu Item C |
-------------------'

.. Ed
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Jonathan said:
Firstly, the only issue with PDF was years ago with Acrobat 5.x and
the issue was with Adobe not Firefox, Acrobat 6.x and now 7.x has no
issue. I have had no problems with PDFs in Firefox.

There are alternatives to the Adobe resource hog. I use FoxItReader and
never have any sort of problem.

Though I did have Adobe Reader 4 on the old PC, and it worked fine with
Firefox. Wasn't ver. 4 the last good one?
It begs the question why folks ask questions when they really do not
want to hear answers?

Luigi? Hello, Luigi???
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Ed said:
To get it to display correctly. The tables are next to each other.
I am assuming you mean [links][pictures and junk]
If set in the table header then the two columns flow down side by side.
Should the browser window be too narrow, a horizontal scroll bar appears,
allowing you access to the hidden content.

Can also be done without table and with CSS, look up CSS 'overflow'
property.
If set by CSS then should the window be too narrow, half of the page
dissapears - relocated below the bottom of the window. The size of window
at which the display of the page is effected is also larger than when the
<table align= is used.

1) I would put the links in a list as they semantically should and set
with width proportionally with the font, yeah not only window size
issues but change the font size and see what happens.

2) As a list your links could be floated to the left as you now have or
set as a horizontal bar, or float to the right. Changes made with
altering only your CSS and not the page.

3) With the nave links as you now have it, you could have your images
group so if space allowed they would be horizontally to the right as in
your mock up. It an be styled so that when there isn't room rather than
have the whole image and text business dive below your links your images
could stack vertically but remain to the right of your links. Possibly
a more desirable option for smaller viewports. The only time they would
scoot beneath the links would be when the window was so small that on
picture could not fit along side. That is very narrow and very unlikely
condition.

4) Lastly with CSS your have an option to change the presentation
without having to change the page markup, this means you can offer
optional versions to your view or for different media, e.g., for
printing, or handhelds, etc.
 
E

Ed Mulroy

If I did not want to hear answers, I would not ask questions.

That you have no problems with PDFs in Firefox bears little relation to if
there are such problems. The issue with PDFs may have been years ago. If
so then there is a new issue related to Acrobat Reader 7.x occasionally
locking up Firefox or IE 6 although it seems less frequently with IE 6. The
issue clearly is Adobe and not the browser but the result to the user of a
lockup is the same.
What is most annoying however is the all too common progression of your
thread. "My deprecated markup does not validate" NG informs you where the
trouble lies and the reply is "But I want the deprecated markup" ...

I dissagree. I do not think I effectively said "But I want the deprecated
markup".

When I attempted to convert to strict the old way no longer validated. I
asked for alternative ways, ways which did validate.

I have no desire related to keeping or discarding the markup, deprecated or
not. My desire was to achieve the function using valid HTML and/or CSS
under 4.01 strict.

The replies I received told of three things:

- 4.01 strict has removed the ability to do what I wanted

- JavaScript can do what I want and one gentleman was
even kind enough to post code which does it. I wish to
avoid JavaScript and said so, but he correctly deduced
that with no alternative under 4.01 strict the desire to
avoid it lessens.

- Many people felt that launching a page in a new window
should not be done because it is not on their personal list
of items used for presentation and posted links to web
pages which echo their opinions. I respect their opinions
but am less receptive to the idea that mine are therefore
invalid.

.. Ed
Jonathan N. Little wrote in message

[TOP POSTING FIXED]
The tabs are pleasant. However when it locks up and you have to cancel
the process to get rid of it all the pages shown in tabs are closed along
with the page in which Adobe Acrobat failed. My current defense for this
is that when encountering a link to a PDF file, copy the link, start an
instance of IE and open it in an IE window.

Firstly, the only issue with PDF was years ago with Acrobat 5.x and the
issue was with Adobe not Firefox, Acrobat 6.x and now 7.x has no issue. I
have had no problems with PDFs in Firefox.

As to lockups, how is Firefox lockups requiring a kill process worse than
IE lockups that at the very least kills the Desktop and the worst brings
down the OS! I do not see your argument here.

What is most annoying however is the all too common progression of your
thread. "My deprecated markup does not validate" NG informs you where the
trouble lies and the reply is "But I want the deprecated markup" Well then
your markup will not validate as strict and also will loose out on many of
the advantages of new approaches to design. It begs the question why folks
ask questions when they really do not want to hear answers?
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Ed said:
Jonathan N. Little wrote

What is it that am I missing here?

A light bulb? said:
The concept is for a left columnar menu consisting of buttons. That
menu is currently implemented as a table. In response to your
comment I have tried doing it with a list but without success.

Did you look at the menu at my countryrode.com site? The menu 'buttons'
are a list. said:
An <li> isn't really a block element.

I can't seem to specify margin 0 on top and left and margin 1 on the
right and bottom with a specified color to get the button appearance
that I wanted.

Perhaps a bit more study is in order...
 
E

Ed Mulroy

I had not noticed the CSS 'overflow' property - I'll look for it now. Thank
you.

Links sliding under or over a photo is something I am willing to go to great
lengths to avoid. I've seen that a lot on web pages and, with regard to
usability, it is debilitating.

Again, thanks for the comments and suggestions. I appreciate you taking the
time and effort to give them.

.. Ed
Jonathan N. Little wrote in message
To get it to display correctly. The tables are next to each
other.

I am assuming you mean [links][pictures and junk]
If set in the table header then the two columns flow down side
by side. Should the browser window be too narrow, a horizontal
scroll bar appears, allowing you access to the hidden content.

Can also be done without table and with CSS, look up CSS
'overflow' property.
If set by CSS then should the window be too narrow, half of
the page dissapears - relocated below the bottom of the
window. The size of window at which the display of the page
is effected is also larger than when the <table align= is
used.

1) I would put the links in a list as they semantically should
and set with width proportionally with the font, yeah not only
window size issues but change the font size and see what
happens.

2) As a list your links could be floated to the left as you now
have or set as a horizontal bar, or float to the right. Changes
made with altering only your CSS and not the page.

3) With the nave links as you now have it, you could have your
images group so if space allowed they would be horizontally to
the right as in your mock up. It an be styled so that when
there isn't room rather than have the whole image and text
business dive below your links your images could stack
vertically but remain to the right of your links. Possibly a
more desirable option for smaller viewports. The only time they
would scoot beneath the links would be when the window was so
small that on picture could not fit along side. That is very
narrow and very unlikely condition.

4) Lastly with CSS your have an option to change the
presentation without having to change the page markup, this
means you can offer optional versions to your view or for
different media, e.g., for printing, or handhelds, etc.

Take care,
 
E

Ed Mulroy

Wow!

I don't know what I did wrong before but that page clearly demonstrates that
it can be easily done.

Many thanks for creating and posting that page!

.. Ed
 
E

Ed Mulroy

Perhaps a bit more study is in order...

In the light of what you have said and especially that of the demo page the
other gentleman posted - that is Very Good Advice.

.. Ed
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Ed Mulroy wrote:
[Beauregard wrote:]
In the light of what you have said and especially that of the demo
page the other gentleman posted - that is Very Good Advice.

Aha, a new meaning for the <acronym>VGA</acronym>.

Yes, Wÿrm's example was sweet and to the point.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Ed said:
What is it that am I missing here?

The concept is for a left columnar menu consisting of buttons. That menu is
currently implemented as a table. In response to your comment I have tried
doing it with a list but without success.

An <li> isn't really a block element. I can't seem to specify margin 0 on
top and left and margin 1 on the right and bottom with a specified color to
get the button appearance that I wanted.

Oh contre!

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/dtd.html#block

<!ENTITY % block
"P | %heading; | %list; | %preformatted; | DL | DIV | NOSCRIPT |
BLOCKQUOTE | FORM | HR | TABLE | FIELDSET | ADDRESS">

And %list; are:

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/dtd.html#list

The menu on my site is just a list, on my dog site also a list but
styled to be on the right:

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/Amberlithe/

And a horizontal menu on a site I am working on for a client mock up
page here:

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/temp/k2249/

Three very different menus all just lists. Other folks around here have
some even more creative examples...
 
N

Neredbojias

To further the education of mankind, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
Ed Mulroy wrote:
[Beauregard wrote:]
In the light of what you have said and especially that of the demo
page the other gentleman posted - that is Very Good Advice.

Aha, a new meaning for the <acronym>VGA</acronym>.

Yes, Wÿrm's example was sweet and to the point.

'Comes from the apple-craving...
 
N

Neredbojias

To further the education of mankind, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
Har! Sounds like a title for the next Nicolas Cage movie...

Actually, I do resemble NC in the physique department. He's kinda ugly,
though.
 

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