Help Required for Choosing Programming Language

Discussion in 'Python' started by ifti_crazy@yahoo.com, Feb 16, 2007.

  1. Guest

    I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
    am unable to deciced.

    i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    through with GUI based programming language like VB.net

    so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
    complete OOPS Characteristics

    will wait for the answer

    hope to have a right direction from you Programmer

    Regards
    Iftikhar
    , Feb 16, 2007
    #1
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  2. Neil Cerutti Guest

    On 2007-02-16, <> wrote:
    > I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language
    > but i am unable to deciced.
    >
    > i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    > through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
    >
    > so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth
    > with complete OOPS Characteristics
    >
    > will wait for the answer
    >
    > hope to have a right direction from you Programmer


    Heck, yeah! Python rules! It will be perfect for your next
    language acquisition.

    (Well, what else did you excect a denizen of a Python group to
    tell you?)

    --
    Neil Cerutti
    Baseball has the great advantage over cricket of being sooner ended. --George
    Bernard Shaw
    Neil Cerutti, Feb 16, 2007
    #2
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  3. Stef Mientki Guest

    wrote:
    > I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
    > am unable to deciced.
    >
    > i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    > through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
    >
    > so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
    > complete OOPS Characteristics

    Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,
    (although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion),
    the beautiful thing about Python is,
    that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB,
    giving you the best of both worlds.

    cheers,
    Stef Mientki
    Stef Mientki, Feb 16, 2007
    #3
  4. Stef Mientki wrote:

    > Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,


    What is the GUI of a language?

    Regards,


    Björn

    --
    BOFH excuse #334:

    50% of the manual is in .pdf readme files
    Bjoern Schliessmann, Feb 16, 2007
    #4
  5. a écrit :
    > I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
    > am unable to deciced.
    >
    > i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    > through with GUI based programming language


    "GUI based programming languages" ? What's that ?

    > like VB.net
    >
    > so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
    > complete OOPS Characteristics


    "complete OOPS Characteristics" ? What's that ?

    Visual C++ is not a language, it's a (proprietary, non portable)
    implementation of a language named C++.

    Ruby and Python are both hi-level, object-oriented languages, and both
    have bindings to the main GUI toolkits. These GUI toolkits usually have
    language-independant GUI designers. For the programming part, you're
    free to choose whatever editor you like. Both Python and Ruby are worth
    learning. Since both have open-source implementations, you can easily
    try them for yourself and choose the one you like best. Now I don't know
    what's the situation for Ruby, but - since you seem to be mostly on the
    MS side -, Python has a pretty good integration with Windows (COM
    programming and scripting, Win32 API bindings etc), and is usually a
    better choice than VB for this j=kind of tasks. Note also that there's
    IronPython (Python for .NET).

    HTH
    Bruno Desthuilliers, Feb 16, 2007
    #5
  6. Stef Mientki a écrit :
    > wrote:
    >
    >> I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
    >> am unable to deciced.
    >>
    >> i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    >> through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
    >>
    >> so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
    >> complete OOPS Characteristics

    >
    > Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,


    "the GUI of Python" ? What's that ? Python is a *programming language*,
    not a GUI toolkit.

    > (although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion),
    > the beautiful thing about Python is,
    > that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB,
    > giving you the best of both worlds.


    Why would one go thru the pain of "embedding" Python in VB (if that's
    even possible) when Python can directly access the Win32 API and all COM
    components and have bindings for GUI toolkits like wxWidgets ?
    Bruno Desthuilliers, Feb 16, 2007
    #6
  7. Guest

    Bruno Desthuilliers:
    > Iftikhar:
    > > i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    > > through with GUI based programming language

    >
    > "GUI based programming languages" ? What's that ?


    Maybe a language like Gui4cli :)
    http://users.hol.gr/~dck/g4c/

    Bye,
    bearophile
    , Feb 16, 2007
    #7
  8. Stef Mientki Guest

    Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
    > Stef Mientki a écrit :
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
    >>> am unable to deciced.
    >>>
    >>> i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    >>> through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
    >>>
    >>> so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
    >>> complete OOPS Characteristics

    >>
    >> Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,

    >
    > "the GUI of Python" ? What's that ? Python is a *programming language*,
    > not a GUI toolkit.

    The final goal of programming language is (in most cases)
    meant to create functional things,
    that can assist people to perform their tasks.
    The UI of that resulting thing should be optimal adapted to the final audience (and task).
    My audience is most comfortable with a intuitive GUI.
    In most of my applications,
    I need about 50% of the time for the GUI and 50% for the other functional code.
    These estimates are for Delphi (is about identical as VB, which I used previous).
    For what I've seen until now from Python,
    - designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python
    - Python is not capable of doing everything I need
    (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot)
    - designing my other functional code in Python,
    will reduce the development time with an estimated factor of 2
    So the combination of Delphi (or VB) and Python seems the optimal combination for heavily GUI's.
    - one of the big problems with Python is the version differences (compatibility)

    In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer,
    I tried it yesterday,
    and although it looks very promising,
    at the moment this is not a graphical design environment,
    just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical feedback.
    Just my 2 cents ;-)


    >
    >> (although others in this group will definitely have a different opinion),
    >> the beautiful thing about Python is,
    >> that you can easily embed /encapsulate it in VB,
    >> giving you the best of both worlds.

    >
    > Why would one go thru the pain of "embedding" Python in VB (if that's
    > even possible) when Python can directly access the Win32 API and all COM
    > components and have bindings for GUI toolkits like wxWidgets ?

    "Pain of embedding" ?
    About 10 lines of code, which you find ready to use on the web ;-)
    And the performance is fantastic !
    (I even use it for realtime, as a complete replacement for MatLab and LabView)

    Bruno, I think we've a different audience / target application,
    and at the moment we'll never agree about GUI,
    but I promise that'll try the different Python graphics in the future,
    and you will be the first to hear if my current conclusions are wrong.

    cheers,
    Stef
    Stef Mientki, Feb 17, 2007
    #8
  9. On 16 Feb 2007 13:22:14 -0800, wrote:

    >I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
    >am unable to deciced.
    >
    >i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    >through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
    >
    >so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
    >complete OOPS Characteristics
    >
    >will wait for the answer
    >
    >hope to have a right direction from you Programmer


    Python is the answer! What was the question?

    wwwayne

    >Regards
    >Iftikhar
    >
    Wayne Brehaut, Feb 17, 2007
    #9
  10. Peter Decker Guest

    On 2/16/07, Stef Mientki <> wrote:

    > In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer,
    > I tried it yesterday,
    > and although it looks very promising,
    > at the moment this is not a graphical design environment,
    > just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical feedback.
    > Just my 2 cents ;-)


    Dabo is indeed a work in progress. They are developing the various
    tools now to get people started, but have plans for a full graphical
    IDE in the manner of Delphi or Visual Studio.

    You can complain that this free tool developed by volunteers in their
    spare time isn't as polished as a commercial tool backed by large
    corporations that can afford large paid staffs.

    Or you could contribute.

    --

    # p.d.
    Peter Decker, Feb 17, 2007
    #10
  11. On 16 Feb 2007 13:22:14 -0800, declaimed the
    following in comp.lang.python:

    > I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
    > am unable to deciced.
    >
    > i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    > through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
    >
    > so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
    > complete OOPS Characteristics
    >
    > will wait for the answer
    >


    What is a "GUI based language"? One where you write programs by
    connecting graphical boxes -- so that when you are done, you compile a
    Nassi-Schneiderman chart?

    Any of the M$ "Visual xxx" are proprietary /development
    environments/. They are not "GUI based languages". The development
    environment just happens to combine an editor, debugger, and an
    application GUI layout tool into one.

    The drawback is that you are stuck with /that editor/, /that
    debugger/ and /that layout tool/ -- and the layout tool typically
    supports only ONE non-portable windowing toolkit (in the case of the
    "Visual xxx" line, at the bottom is likely M$ MFC). Delphi/Kylix lock
    you into Borland's wrapper of a windowing package. Netbeans and Eclipse
    tend to limit one to layers on Java Swing (though the plug-in nature of
    these two do allow for much more customization).

    Python, OTOH, is NOT a locked-in development system. Pick your
    favorite editor... pick your preferred windowing library (Tkinter,
    wxPython, a few others). You can find stand-alone layout tools, which
    produce configuration files that can be loaded by Python code at runtime
    to generate the application.

    Do not confuse the /application/ GUI with the development
    environment. In Python, these are completely separate entities (you
    could be editing code using the Tkinter based IDLE that implements an
    application using the wxPython toolkit).

    Dabo has, I believe, been mentioned. It is still a work-in-progress
    optimized to create 3-tier (though all-in-one) programs -- modules for
    database access, business logic, and application GUI.
    --
    Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG

    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
    (Bestiaria Support Staff: )
    HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/
    Dennis Lee Bieber, Feb 17, 2007
    #11
  12. Stef Mientki Guest

    Peter Decker wrote:
    > On 2/16/07, Stef Mientki <> wrote:
    >
    >> In one of the other threads, Dabo was meant as a GUI designer,
    >> I tried it yesterday,
    >> and although it looks very promising,
    >> at the moment this is not a graphical design environment,
    >> just a complex (compared to Delphi) design environment with graphical
    >> feedback.
    >> Just my 2 cents ;-)

    >
    > Dabo is indeed a work in progress. They are developing the various
    > tools now to get people started, but have plans for a full graphical
    > IDE in the manner of Delphi or Visual Studio.
    >
    > You can complain that this free tool developed by volunteers in their
    > spare time isn't as polished as a commercial tool backed by large
    > corporations that can afford large paid staffs.

    Sorry, but I didn't complain !!
    I just wrote down my observations.
    I didn't write my observations to dis-encourage people,
    (if so, my sincere appologies)
    but to show that their are other (and maybe better) ways.
    >
    > Or you could contribute.
    >

    Believe me or not, I love free and open software,
    and I do contribute to the open source community,
    but let everyone do what he/she is good in.
    Why do you think I want to replace the use of MatLab and LabView
    (and a number of others) with Python ;-)

    cheers,
    Stef Mientki
    Stef Mientki, Feb 17, 2007
    #12
  13. > The final goal of programming language is (in most cases)
    > meant to create functional things,
    > that can assist people to perform their tasks.
    > The UI of that resulting thing should be optimal adapted to the final
    > audience (and task).
    > My audience is most comfortable with a intuitive GUI.
    > In most of my applications,
    > I need about 50% of the time for the GUI and 50% for the other
    > functional code.
    > These estimates are for Delphi (is about identical as VB, which I used
    > previous).
    > For what I've seen until now from Python,
    > - designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python


    You mean delphi here I presume?
    > - Python is not capable of doing everything I need
    > (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot)


    I'm not sure what you are talking about here, and I have the deep
    impression you yourself don't as well.

    Matter of factly, there is no "the python GUI". There are quite a few
    choices. The built-in tkinter, which - while limited in some senses - is
    developed by Frederik Lundh, and while I personally haven't done too
    much with it, his reputation as one of the most high profiled python
    developers doesn't go along pretty well with your assertions above. So
    -whatever you used as GUI-toolkit, you either used it wrong, or it
    really wasn't good.

    But then there are at least three major other toolkits available, wx,
    gtk and Qt. The first two I've only dabbled a bit with and can't comment on.

    But I've done extensive, cross-platform development with Qt. And can
    assert that it is unmatched in productivity and feature richness,
    especially when combined with python. And certainly beat VB, and most
    probably even delphi (albeit I haven't done too much in that to really
    put all my weight behind these words).

    And so I'm under the strong impression that your - undoubtedly correct
    from a personal point of view, and I don't think your meaning evil here
    - observations are wrong and are based on a lack of experience in python
    and it's available gui-options.

    Diez
    Diez B. Roggisch, Feb 17, 2007
    #13
  14. goodwolf Guest

    In your situation consider C# too.
    If you like python then try IronPython for .NET.
    I think that C++ is not ideal for you.

    P.S.: VB6 is NOT a real OOP language.
    goodwolf, Feb 17, 2007
    #14
  15. Don Taylor Guest

    wrote:
    > I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
    > am unable to deciced.
    >
    > i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    > through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
    >


    By 'GUI based programming language' I think that you mean an integrated
    development environment that includes a visual designer that allows you
    to layout your GUI and that generates a skeleton application for you to
    complete.

    If this is so then the nearest thing that I have found is Boa
    Constructor, although you will need to know more about the underlying
    windowing system (wxPython) than you would when using VB.net in Visual
    Studio.

    Another system worth a close look is Pythoncard.

    Other folks have already mentioned Dabo, but this is probably too early
    in its development for your needs.

    As an alternative, you can make your own choice of editor/IDE and use a
    stand-alone visual designer for your GUI. I like Pydev/Eclipse for an
    IDE and wxGlade for the visual designer. Again, you will need to learn
    something about wxPython if you want avoid lots of frustration - Robin
    Dunn's book 'wxPython in Action' is good.

    There are probably similar toolkits available for combinations of Python
    and other windowing systems (Tkinter, Qt).

    Don.
    Don Taylor, Feb 17, 2007
    #15
  16. Max Wilson Guest

    On Feb 17, 1:35 am, "Diez B. Roggisch" <> wrote:
    > But I've done extensive, cross-platform development with Qt. And can
    > assert that it is unmatched in productivity and feature richness,
    > especially when combined with python. And certainly beat VB, and most
    > probably even delphi (albeit I haven't done too much in that to really
    > put all my weight behind these words). [snip]


    Thanks for the pointer--my hobby right now is a GURPS-based wargame
    and I'm still looking for a good front-end generator. pygsear seems
    nice in a lot of ways, but it's possible Qt will require less
    development on my part. (I need to have one window, but split into
    separate panels in the style of old RPGs like Wizardry and Bard's
    Tale.) I'll have a look.

    -Maximilian
    Max Wilson, Feb 17, 2007
    #16
  17. Stef Mientki a écrit :
    > Bruno Desthuilliers wrote:
    >
    >> Stef Mientki a écrit :
    >>
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I am VB6 programmer and wants to start new programming language but i
    >>>> am unable to deciced.
    >>>>
    >>>> i have read about Python, Ruby and Visual C++. but i want to go
    >>>> through with GUI based programming language like VB.net
    >>>>
    >>>> so will you please guide me which GUI based language has worth with
    >>>> complete OOPS Characteristics
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Although the GUI of Python is not as good as VB,

    >>
    >>
    >> "the GUI of Python" ? What's that ? Python is a *programming
    >> language*, not a GUI toolkit.

    >
    > The final goal of programming language is (in most cases)
    > meant to create functional things,
    > that can assist people to perform their tasks.
    > The UI of that resulting thing should be optimal adapted to the final
    > audience (and task).
    > My audience is most comfortable with a intuitive GUI.
    > In most of my applications,
    > I need about 50% of the time for the GUI and 50% for the other
    > functional code.
    > These estimates are for Delphi (is about identical as VB, which I used
    > previous).


    Stef, I come from the Mac world, at a time where Windows didn't even
    exist. I learned programming on a Mac (by the System7 days), then, a few
    years later, became a professional Windows programmer - using VB,
    VisualC++, etc. My first steps with Python were about GUI apps on
    Windows. I've switched to Linux and web programming since, but I do know
    what Windows GUI programming with Python is.

    > For what I've seen until now from Python,
    > - designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python


    Bullshit. You don't design the GUI with Python, but with one of the GUI
    designers coming with your GUI toolkit (that's, mostly, wxGlade for
    wxWidgets, Glade for GTK, and QTDesigner for QT). All these tools have
    all the needed features.

    > - Python is not capable of doing everything I need
    > (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot)


    I've shipped some wxPython apps, and tehy were usually more stable than
    the VB ones.

    > - designing my other functional code in Python,
    > will reduce the development time with an estimated factor of 2
    > So the combination of Delphi (or VB) and Python seems the optimal
    > combination for heavily GUI's.


    My experience is that you *dont* need Delphi nor VB at all.

    > - one of the big problems with Python is the version differences
    > (compatibility)


    By itself, Python is very carefully designed for backward compat -
    you'll find that much of the code written by the 1.5.2 days still work
    as is. True, there are some compat requirements wrt/ which version of
    wxPython works with which versions of wxWidgets and Python, but nothing
    unusual here.

    > Bruno, I think we've a different audience / target application,
    > and at the moment we'll never agree about GUI,


    cf above. When I was writing Windows GUI apps, my target audience was
    mostly people knowing how to use a professional app on Windows. Now I'm
    doing web apps, and my target audience may include my own mother - which
    is not specially computer savy (even MacOS is too complex for her...).
    Bruno Desthuilliers, Feb 17, 2007
    #17
  18. Stef Mientki Guest

    >> - designing the GUI will cost me about 2 .. 3 times as much in Python
    >
    > You mean delphi here I presume?

    No, but if that's your believe ..
    Some examples:
    - Creating a treeview (like in the M$ explorer), with full edit capabilities and full drag & drop
    facilities: Delphi takes about 40 lines of code (most of them even ^C ^V).
    - Creating a graphical overview of relations between database tables, which can be graphical
    manipulated by the user (like in M$ Access): Delphi 20 lines of code.
    I wonder what this costs in Python ?

    >> - Python is not capable of doing everything I need
    >> (almost all interactive actions are very primitive and crashes a lot)

    >
    > I'm not sure what you are talking about here, and I have the deep
    > impression you yourself don't as well.

    I'm not an (educated) programmer, so I don't always use the right terms :-(
    If I look at a well established program like DIA,
    and see that it still can't repaint it's screen always correctly, ...
    If I just look at MathPlotLib ;-)
    But I also know one beautiful program based on wx: KICAD.

    >
    > Matter of factly, there is no "the python GUI". There are quite a few
    > choices. The built-in tkinter, which - while limited in some senses - is
    > developed by Frederik Lundh, and while I personally haven't done too
    > much with it, his reputation as one of the most high profiled python
    > developers doesn't go along pretty well with your assertions above. So
    > -whatever you used as GUI-toolkit, you either used it wrong, or it
    > really wasn't good.
    >
    > But then there are at least three major other toolkits available, wx,
    > gtk and Qt. The first two I've only dabbled a bit with and can't comment
    > on.
    >
    > But I've done extensive, cross-platform development with Qt. And can
    > assert that it is unmatched in productivity and feature richness,
    > especially when combined with python. And certainly beat VB, and most
    > probably even delphi (albeit I haven't done too much in that to really
    > put all my weight behind these words).
    >
    > And so I'm under the strong impression that your - undoubtedly correct
    > from a personal point of view, and I don't think your meaning evil here
    > - observations are wrong and are based on a lack of experience in python
    > and it's available gui-options.


    I've been using Python for just 2 months, and didn't try any graphical design,
    I've other priorities first.
    I would love to see:
    - a comparison between wx and gtk (QT doesn't have a very inviting license ;-)
    - some Python applications that uses one of these graphical libraries.

    To give you an impression of some features I'm after, I've prepared an animation (not completely
    ready yet), of the program I've written in Delphi, with both embedded MatLab and embedded Python,
    where MatLab or Python does all the real-time numerical analysis.
    http://oase.uci.kun.nl/~mientki/download/medilab_tot.htm
    Writing this program, including teaching myself Python (with a lot of help of this group, thank you
    all !!), and writing the bloodpressure analysis in both MatLab and Python, excluding the
    ADC-drivers, costed me about 150 .. 200 hours ...
    .... can that be done be an experienced programmer in Python.

    cheers,
    Stef Mientki
    Stef Mientki, Feb 17, 2007
    #18
  19. Stef Mientki Guest

    Stef Mientki, Feb 18, 2007
    #19
  20. En Sat, 17 Feb 2007 21:12:07 -0300, Stef Mientki
    <> escribió:

    >> I would love to see:
    >> - a comparison between wx and gtk (QT doesn't have a very inviting
    >> license ;-)

    > I just found this:


    > http://www.wxwidgets.org/wiki/index.php/WxWidgets_Compared_To_Other_Toolkits


    But keep in mind that that comparison may be biased... A more impartial
    source would be better.

    --
    Gabriel Genellina
    Gabriel Genellina, Feb 18, 2007
    #20
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