Home-made SSI chips

Discussion in 'VHDL' started by JJ, Sep 21, 2003.

  1. JJ

    JJ Guest

    Hi all!
    Please don't laugh.. I'm serious.

    After having made PCB's with the photographic-like technique, and
    being very pleased with the resolution I've been able to achieve,
    I was wondering what would it take to make my own SSI chips?

    Of course I'm not talking about 90 nM resolution.. but something
    like 0.1 millimeters (at best). I have a 2400²dpi laser printer.

    How does one make a transistor? Is this technology reachable from
    the (enthusiast) hobbyst? Where could I find the necessary materials?

    Thanks!
    John
    JJ, Sep 21, 2003
    #1
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  2. JJ

    Paul Guest

    Making transistors typically needs much smaller geomtries to do
    anything beyond a laboratory curiousity, though to a first
    approximation transistors are scalable upwards to 100um geometries.

    However, the chemicals and gasses you'll need are not something
    you want to mess with. You'll likely not be able to get them
    anyway. Many will kill on contact or inhalation. A few will
    combust spontaneously on contact with air.

    Let us know where you live so we can all be sure to be far away
    when you try.



    JJ wrote:
    > Hi all!
    > Please don't laugh.. I'm serious.
    >
    > After having made PCB's with the photographic-like technique, and
    > being very pleased with the resolution I've been able to achieve,
    > I was wondering what would it take to make my own SSI chips?
    >
    > Of course I'm not talking about 90 nM resolution.. but something
    > like 0.1 millimeters (at best). I have a 2400²dpi laser printer.
    >
    > How does one make a transistor? Is this technology reachable from
    > the (enthusiast) hobbyst? Where could I find the necessary materials?
    >
    > Thanks!
    > John
    >
    Paul, Sep 22, 2003
    #2
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  3. JJ

    Phil Tomson Guest

    In article <00tbb.539288$YN5.363846@sccrnsc01>, Paul <> wrote:
    >Making transistors typically needs much smaller geomtries to do
    >anything beyond a laboratory curiousity, though to a first
    >approximation transistors are scalable upwards to 100um geometries.
    >
    >However, the chemicals and gasses you'll need are not something
    >you want to mess with. You'll likely not be able to get them
    >anyway. Many will kill on contact or inhalation. A few will
    >combust spontaneously on contact with air.
    >


    but what if he didn't use silicon or germanium based transistors? There's
    a lot of buzz lately about organic semiconductors and there have been some
    demonstrations where transistors are 'printed' using inkjet printers.

    Unless they can afford an FPGA dev kit, hobbyists are pretty much locked
    out these days - there's also the issue of surface mount components that
    are pretty much impossible to solder using hobbyist equipment. So
    something like this where you could draw a schematic (or write in HDL),
    synthesize and print a circuit onto a transparency - well, that would be
    very cool for the hobbyist. Actually, it could be pretty nice for
    prototyping in industry as well, I suppose.

    >Let us know where you live so we can all be sure to be far away
    >when you try.


    Kind of like a meph lab...


    phil
    Phil Tomson, Sep 22, 2003
    #3
  4. > Unless they can afford an FPGA dev kit, hobbyists are pretty much locked
    > out these days


    There are FPGA starter kits around the price of a good ink-jet printer. If a
    hobbist can afford one he/she can afford the other.

    > - there's also the issue of surface mount components that
    > are pretty much impossible to solder using hobbyist equipment.


    That's not true. I and many many other hobbist soldering SMD parts
    routinely. It seems harder than it actually is. I would even say it's faster
    to work with SMD parts than with traditional THD ones.

    > So
    > something like this where you could draw a schematic (or write in HDL),
    > synthesize and print a circuit onto a transparency - well, that would be
    > very cool for the hobbyist.


    Cool indeed. This technology is so new however I would afraid the price of
    the materials are quite high for the hobbiest. There's couple of more
    problem to solve too. One is contacts: how would you put leads on such a
    cirtuit. You almost certainly can't solder anything on them. One solution
    might be to use metal clips on the sides. Not sure though how many pins can
    you apply that way. The other is packaging. I'm almost sure that such a
    device would be most sensitive to mechanical stress. how would you protect
    it?

    No nit-picking, I'm truly interested.

    Regards,
    Andras Tantos
    Andras Tantos, Sep 23, 2003
    #4
  5. JJ

    Phil Tomson Guest

    In article <3f6f8736$>,
    Andras Tantos <> wrote:
    >> Unless they can afford an FPGA dev kit, hobbyists are pretty much locked
    >> out these days

    >
    >There are FPGA starter kits around the price of a good ink-jet printer. If a
    >hobbist can afford one he/she can afford the other.
    >
    >> - there's also the issue of surface mount components that
    >> are pretty much impossible to solder using hobbyist equipment.

    >
    >That's not true. I and many many other hobbist soldering SMD parts
    >routinely. It seems harder than it actually is. I would even say it's faster
    >to work with SMD parts than with traditional THD ones.


    Perhaps. I haven't played with that sort of thing for years.

    >
    >> So
    >> something like this where you could draw a schematic (or write in HDL),
    >> synthesize and print a circuit onto a transparency - well, that would be
    >> very cool for the hobbyist.

    >
    >Cool indeed. This technology is so new however I would afraid the price of
    >the materials are quite high for the hobbiest. There's couple of more
    >problem to solve too. One is contacts: how would you put leads on such a
    >cirtuit. You almost certainly can't solder anything on them. One solution
    >might be to use metal clips on the sides. Not sure though how many pins can
    >you apply that way. The other is packaging. I'm almost sure that such a
    >device would be most sensitive to mechanical stress. how would you protect
    >it?
    >
    >No nit-picking, I'm truly interested.
    >


    I'm engaging in pure speculation here... I belive these organic
    semiconductors are made to be flexible - there was even talk about
    printing them on on clothes so you could put sensors directly into
    clothing.

    As far as mounting the plastic goes: I suspect you could have soome sort
    of spring loaded frame that clamps onto the piece of plastic and makes
    electrical contact with pads printed at the edge of the plastic.

    Anyway, it makes for interesting speculation. These devices are still
    apparently very slow, but for most hobby projects that would be fine.

    Phil
    Phil Tomson, Sep 23, 2003
    #5
  6. JJ

    Paul Guest

    Phil Tomson wrote:
    > In article <00tbb.539288$YN5.363846@sccrnsc01>, Paul <> wrote:
    >
    >>

    >
    > Unless they can afford an FPGA dev kit, hobbyists are pretty much locked
    > out these days - there's also the issue of surface mount components that


    Not quite true. While it's not exactly cheap, you can get
    processed, packaged die from Mosis for $1k or for a "Tiny Chip".
    I know lots of hobbies which can set you back more than that.

    Paul
    Paul, Sep 23, 2003
    #6
  7. JJ wrote:
    > Hi all!
    > Please don't laugh.. I'm serious.
    >
    > After having made PCB's with the photographic-like technique, and
    > being very pleased with the resolution I've been able to achieve,
    > I was wondering what would it take to make my own SSI chips?
    >
    > Of course I'm not talking about 90 nM resolution.. but something
    > like 0.1 millimeters (at best). I have a 2400²dpi laser printer.
    >
    > How does one make a transistor? Is this technology reachable from
    > the (enthusiast) hobbyst? Where could I find the necessary materials?


    I have no afordable answer to your question but I like your idea very
    much and beg you to keep us informed of your progress.

    Best regards,
    --
    Renaud Pacalet, GET/ENST/COMELEC/SoC
    Institut Eurecom BP 193, 2229 route des Cretes
    F-06904 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex
    Tel : +33 (0) 4 9300 2770
    Fax : +33 (0) 4 9300 2627
    Fight Spam! Join EuroCAUCE: http://www.euro.cauce.org/
    Renaud Pacalet, Sep 25, 2003
    #7
  8. JJ

    Alex Gibson Guest

    "JJ" <> wrote in message news:Mcibb.334808$...
    > Hi all!
    > Please don't laugh.. I'm serious.
    >
    > After having made PCB's with the photographic-like technique, and
    > being very pleased with the resolution I've been able to achieve,
    > I was wondering what would it take to make my own SSI chips?
    >
    > Of course I'm not talking about 90 nM resolution.. but something
    > like 0.1 millimeters (at best). I have a 2400²dpi laser printer.
    >
    > How does one make a transistor? Is this technology reachable from
    > the (enthusiast) hobbyst? Where could I find the necessary materials?
    >
    > Thanks!
    > John


    I believe a number of uni's had projects that made transistors by printing them with a special ink
    jet cartridge.

    Read something about being able to buy the cartridges.
    Also about prototyping a small cpu core by pinning
    sheets of paper together, with circuit running at under 20MHz.
    Was large though.

    google is your friend

    http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&q=printing transistors with inkjet

    http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/may01/nmicro.html
    http://www.mstnews.de/pdf_aktuell/mst_so03_p3.pdf
    http://content.aip.org/APPLAB/v83/i10/2070_1.html
    http://www.physicstoday.com/pt/vol-54/iss-2/p20.html
    http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2003/060403/Plastic_transistors_go_vertical_060403.html
    http://www.nivi.com/papers/PrintedTransistor.pdf fets


    http://web.media.mit.edu/~ewilhelm/projects/printing_electronics/ see the list of references
    epecially print your next pc

    more links here
    http://www.bfprinting.com/inkjetprinting/

    also have a look at e-ink
    Alex Gibson, Sep 26, 2003
    #8
  9. JJ

    james Guest

    On 22 Sep 2003 20:24:16 GMT, (Phil Tomson) wrote:

    >In article <00tbb.539288$YN5.363846@sccrnsc01>, Paul <> wrote:
    >>Making transistors typically needs much smaller geomtries to do
    >>anything beyond a laboratory curiousity, though to a first
    >>approximation transistors are scalable upwards to 100um geometries.
    >>
    >>However, the chemicals and gasses you'll need are not something
    >>you want to mess with. You'll likely not be able to get them
    >>anyway. Many will kill on contact or inhalation. A few will
    >>combust spontaneously on contact with air.
    >>

    >
    >but what if he didn't use silicon or germanium based transistors? There's
    >a lot of buzz lately about organic semiconductors and there have been some
    >demonstrations where transistors are 'printed' using inkjet printers.
    >
    >Unless they can afford an FPGA dev kit, hobbyists are pretty much locked
    >out these days - there's also the issue of surface mount components that
    >are pretty much impossible to solder using hobbyist equipment. So
    >something like this where you could draw a schematic (or write in HDL),
    >synthesize and print a circuit onto a transparency - well, that would be
    >very cool for the hobbyist. Actually, it could be pretty nice for
    >prototyping in industry as well, I suppose.
    >

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    SMD technology for hobbiest is not that difficult in small size boards
    and small quantities. The heat source for soldering can be as simple
    as a 4"x4" hot plate. At about 270 C you can have the PCB(FR4) on the
    hot plate for as long as two minutes. I have done up to 100 pin BGA
    parts using 20mil pads 30 mil spacing as well as 44 pin TSOP devices
    by this method. The hardest part is to slide teh board off the hot
    plate without disturbing the parts. For this I have some 4 in square
    by 10 mil thick ceramic plates. Slide the board onto the ceramic
    plate.

    There are processes to make simple single sided boards. What I used
    for my senior project did 10 mil runners at 10 mil spacing with no
    trouble.

    To make an IC, now that is different.

    james

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >>Let us know where you live so we can all be sure to be far away
    >>when you try.

    >
    >Kind of like a meph lab...
    >
    >
    >phil
    james, Sep 27, 2003
    #9
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