HOST - dreamhost.com / Liberality (Hosting, Basic Requirement)

Discussion in 'Perl Misc' started by Ilias Lazaridis, Jun 4, 2006.

  1. crossposted to 5 groups, which are affected by this case.

    followup not applicable.

    -

    I am currently selecting a Hosting Provider / Project Host...

    http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/Host

    For this larger scale project...

    http://case.lazaridis.com/multi

    -

    An incident within usenet has reminded me to include a very Basic
    Requirement, which is "Terms of Service / Liberality".

    -

    The incident:

    http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/harassment.html

    It _seems_ that Mr. Xah Les's account was terminated by dreamhost.com
    because of

    a) the inability of several people to detect the interconnections within
    writings which lead to perfectly valid cross-posts within the usenet.

    b) the non-liberal and essentially non-professional way of how
    dreamhost.com deals with abuse complaints.

    -

    The accusations of "dreamhost.com" are simply wrong.

    The behaviour of dreamhost.com looks like a case of "selective ruling",
    whilst using a right defined within the "Terms of Service" to terminate
    accounts essentially at free will.

    Can someone trust his business or even his private activities to a
    hosting company, which cancels accounts in such a way?

    I do not:

    http://case.lazaridis.com/multi/wiki/DreamhostAudit

    But possibly I am wrong, and all this is just a missunderstanding.

    -

    To dreamhost.com:

    You should install an autoresponder to your abuse email, which reminds
    people that it is

    * nearly inpossible to rate the content posted to usenet
    * neally inpossible to detect validity of cross-posts
    especially within complex analytical/philosophical writings
    * other important facts

    People can then decide if they still wish to send the abuse complain
    (e.g. can follow a link within the autoresponder).

    You should additionally make a clear statement, that you do _not_ have
    the right to cancel acounts _without_ any reason, and that you do _not_
    intervene into a persons right to speek within the usenet, without a
    clear and undoubtable proof of abuse (e.g. court decision, or at least
    verfication of independend entities or mediators).

    Additionally, it would be gentle if your company would make a _public_
    statement subjecting this case, thus any interested party can verify the
    validity of the statements.

    -

    To Mr. Xah Lee:

    You should change to a more liberal services provider, one which
    plays in the "Major League" and which respects free speech. Such a
    provider would just reject such ridiculous abuse complaints.

    If, for any reason, you are not able to switch to another hosting
    provider, please let me know.

    I will see what I can do for you to keep your free speech up.

    Additionally, I would like to suggest you to not invest too much time
    into all this. Better use this time to find people and to react in an
    organized manner.

    -

    To the complaining people:

    To which 'species' do you belong?

    http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/species.html

    Setting up an thread filter:

    http://lazaridis.com/core/eval/filter.html

    I have seldom seen a more ridiculous argumentation-line than then
    "spam/abuse" one.

    -

    To anyone:

    Any form of censorship and "suppression of freedom of expression" should
    be kept out of from open-source projects and from usenet.

    It is the within the responsibility of every entity (including
    commercial companies) to act against it.

    http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/wiki/LiberalProjectDefinition

    -
    -
    -

    ..

    --
    http://lazaridis.com
     
    Ilias Lazaridis, Jun 4, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Ilias Lazaridis schrieb:
    > crossposted to 5 groups, which are affected by this case.
    >
    > followup not applicable.


    Actually, in this case, yes.

    > It _seems_ that Mr. Xah Les's account was terminated by dreamhost.com
    > because of
    >
    > a) the inability of several people to detect the interconnections within
    > writings which lead to perfectly valid cross-posts within the usenet.


    Actually, his posts are mostly off-topic.

    > b) the non-liberal and essentially non-professional way of how
    > dreamhost.com deals with abuse complaints.


    Unless you give some concrete facts, this is simply slander.
    URLs don't count.

    > To dreamhost.com:
    >
    > You should install an autoresponder to your abuse email, which reminds
    > people that it is
    >
    > * nearly inpossible to rate the content posted to usenet
    > * neally inpossible to detect validity of cross-posts
    > especially within complex analytical/philosophical writings
    > * other important facts


    Why are you wasting our mental bandwidth with that?
    Besides, it's utter nonsense. There's an infinity of invalid reasons, so
    you can't rule them out with an autoresponder.

    > People can then decide if they still wish to send the abuse complain
    > (e.g. can follow a link within the autoresponder).


    Nope. Finding out the provider is enough of a barrier. Additional
    barriers are not really necessary.
    Xah Lee has been irritating people for months.

    I do share your concerns. Complaint handling often is unprofessional.
    However, in Xah Lee's case, he's indeed been irritating too many people
    for a too long time that *some* sanction is in fact appropriate.
    I routinely kill his threads, but I'm reading a specific newsgroup for a
    purpose, and Xah Lee requires me to kill his. He's essentially doing
    semantic spam - analytical and philosophical writings may be well and
    fine, but they aren't appropriate on the newsgroups that I frequent (or
    only in very specific ways that Xah Lee doesn't address).

    > To anyone:
    >
    > Any form of censorship and "suppression of freedom of expression" should
    > be kept out of from open-source projects and from usenet.
    >
    > It is the within the responsibility of every entity (including
    > commercial companies) to act against it.
    >
    > http://dev.lazaridis.com/base/wiki/LiberalProjectDefinition


    There are many important goals. Free speech is indeed very high on the
    list. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that Xah Lee will find another
    provider.
     
    Joachim Durchholz, Jun 4, 2006
    #2
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  3. Tim X wrote:
    [...]
    > I think the other point here is that everyone *assumes* Xah's account
    > was cancelled simply because of a campaign to report him for spamming
    > multiple newsgroups. I suspect there were other factors involved. for
    > all anyone knows, the provider might have been getting complaints from
    > people about Xah's account, website, e-mail and newsgorup posting for
    > ages and just decided it was more trouble than it was worth to keep
    > him as a customer.

    [...]

    > On usernet, I think the secret is "believe nothing, question
    > everything" and remember, on the net, nobody knows your a dog!


    I understand what you mean.

    I've written in my message:

    "It _seems_ that Mr. Xah Les's account was terminated by dreamhost.com
    because of "

    "
    To dreamhost.com:
    [...]
    Additionally, it would be gentle if your company would make a _public_
    statement subjecting this case, thus any interested party can verify the
    validity of the statements. "

    ..

    --
    http://lazaridis.com
     
    Ilias Lazaridis, Jun 5, 2006
    #3
  4. Ilias Lazaridis

    Lad Guest

    Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:
    > Joachim Durchholz wrote:
    >
    > >> People can then decide if they still wish to send the abuse complain
    > >> (e.g. can follow a link within the autoresponder).

    > >
    > > Nope. Finding out the provider is enough of a barrier. Additional
    > > barriers are not really necessary.
    > > Xah Lee has been irritating people for months.

    >
    > Come on! What does it cost to ignore a thread compared to what it costs to
    > allow arbitrary censorship? Also, what would it cost to this guy to get
    > another account and irritate people again for many years until termination
    > of the new account? The only difference here is that someone legally
    > decided that he could not express himself for a while. This will not
    > prevent him coming back. There are lots of people that irritate me in
    > italian politics for example, telling bullshit all the time :) but I do not
    > hope they will be censored :) Again, in kmail I press the "i" key when I
    > see Xah Lee and I live happier.
    >
    > Bye
    >
    > Vincenzo
    >
    > --
    > Please note that I do not read the e-mail address used in the from field but
    > I read vincenzo_ml at yahoo dot it
    > Attenzione: non leggo l'indirizzo di posta usato nel campo from, ma leggo
    > vincenzo_ml at yahoo dot it




    I do not reccomend Dreamhost.com not because they are not liberal but
    because their service is not reliable.
    I also have a webhosting with them but their server has a lot of
    downtimes when more visitors come to my webpage and it is not possible
    to have such webhosting provider for serious projects!!!
     
    Lad, Jun 5, 2006
    #4
  5. Ilias Lazaridis

    Guest

    Vincenzo Ciancia wrote:
    > Come on! What does it cost to ignore a thread compared to what it costs to
    > allow arbitrary censorship?


    I would hardly call this "arbitrary censorship." Arbitrary censorship
    would be nuking people's accounts without warning and without reason.
    It would be remarkable if Xah Lee wasn't aware of the negative
    consequences of his posts. And by breaking rules of nettiquete, he was
    giving ample reason for the consequences to be doled out as they were.

    None of us here are for "arbitrary censorship." So please leave your
    straw men in the fields where they belong.

    Honestly, should Xah be able to cross-post his diatribes on
    alt.sports.baseball.ny-yankees? And when they kick him off for doing
    so, are you going to cry "censorship?" One way to look at this
    situation is to say that his voice is being throttled. But that is
    only one way of looking at it, and these kind of slippery-slope
    arguments are disingenuous.

    The rules of Usenet are what make it useful. Enforcing the
    partitioning posts into the appropriate threads is not a means of
    thought-control; it is a way to organize information on Usenet so that
    people can find what they are looking for. No one in their right mind
    goes to comp.lang.*.misc for philosophical discussions.

    > Also, what would it cost to this guy to get
    > another account and irritate people again for many years until termination
    > of the new account? The only difference here is that someone legally
    > decided that he could not express himself for a while.


    You know, if Xah clicked AGREE on the TOS, then he ought not be
    surprised that this happened to him. Underhanded business practice?
    Sure, I wouldn't sign up with that kind of ISP if it were the last
    choice on earth. However, if Mr. Lee is half as intelligent as he
    purports to be, he would have seen the inevitiability of this.
    Besides, there are plenty of places on Usenet where his rants are
    perfectly on-topic.

    >This will not prevent him coming back.


    Sadly, you are probably right. I don't want Xah to have to go back to
    the 19th century. I just want him to respect the rules of the game.
    If we want to read his blatherings, we already know where to find them.

    >There are lots of people that irritate me in
    > italian politics for example, telling bullshit all the time :) but I do not
    > hope they will be censored :)


    This is a last resort. If Xah had bothered to stick around in the
    threads he began, he would have been appraised of this situation long
    ago. And that's giving him the benefit of assuming that he isn't a
    troll.

    >Again, in kmail I press the "i" key when I
    > see Xah Lee and I live happier.


    Good for you, we're all very proud. Your medal is in the mail.
     
    , Jun 6, 2006
    #5
  6. Ilias Lazaridis wrote:
    > crossposted to 5 groups, which are affected by this case.
    >

    [some random ramblings about a troll being silenced for the moment]

    And your article has exactly what relationship to Perl?

    *PLONK*

    jue
     
    Jürgen Exner, Jun 9, 2006
    #6
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