How do I get MS Sans Serif on my whole webpage?

J

johnsonholding

I am finding that Arial and MS Sans Serif looks exactly the same...Is
this true or am I seeing things? I am trying to get on every computer
with MS Sans Serif because it is slightly
different from Arial - is there a way of doing this? Do I need to use
CSS? Thanks!
 
L

Leonard Blaisdell

[email protected] said:
I am finding that Arial and MS Sans Serif looks exactly the same...Is
this true or am I seeing things? I am trying to get on every computer
with MS Sans Serif because it is slightly
different from Arial - is there a way of doing this? Do I need to use
CSS? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Change the default sans-serif font in your browser to something else.
I'm really not sure I understand your question.

leo
 
J

Jose

I am trying to get on every computer
with MS Sans Serif because it is slightly
different from Arial
Click to expand...

What does "get on every computer with" mean? If you mean you want to
have your web site be displayed in the font called "MS Sans Serif", you
mostly can't, even though you mostly can. First, I don't think MS Sans
Serif is a font, but a request to use one of many sans serif fonts (the
browser will use its default sans serif font, which is probably arial,
but could be anything). I don't have a font called "MS Sans Serif" on
my (windows 98) computer.

In the case where it =is= a specific font, you can request that the
browser use it, but the font must be available on the computer for that
to work, otherwise the browser will use the "next best thing".
Remember, users may not want =your= font, they may well want =their=
font (and size). That should be honored.

That said - Arial is a dumass font for the net since it confuses several
letters and numbers, leading to easy impersonation.

Jose
 
J

johnsonholding

My designer loves the font and wants to use it, so I am stuck with
Microsoft San Serif font that seems to work in MS word and wordpad. I
looked at both in MS word and there are differences. In Dreamweaver,
it seems to revert to Arial, but my designer would have none of it. I
am guessing since Microsoft puts out MS Sans Serif, that is should be
on every single font list on the computer...but maybe I am wrong.
Should CSS be able to do this? Or even plain HTML?
 
R

richardv2

CSS absolutely can make all of your page the same font. Read up on CSS
font-family.
1. In the <head> of your page, link to the CSS file like...
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css">

2. In style.css set up whatever you want...

body {
font-family: "MS Sans-serif", sans-serif, Georgia, Whatever
}

3. Because not ALL machines have any of the fonts the font-family
selector says "USE THIS LIST IN PRIORITY ORDER! Use the first font you
find on this machine, starting from the left."
Any font that has a space in it MUST be in quotes, otherwise, just make
a comma separated list.
Google "fonts CSS font-family" to find out the CLOSEST to the font you
want on different operating systems. (I found that list, but it is not
with me now.)
 
M

Mark Parnell

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity,
I am trying to get on every computer
with MS Sans Serif
Click to expand...

You can *suggest* through CSS that the browser use MS Sans Serif[1], but
it is subject to several caveats:

1) The visitor has to actually *have* a font called MS Sans Serif on
their computer
2) The visitor has the ability to override any font selection you make

By all means use MS Sans Serif - that's what your designer will see,
which is the main thing. :) Just don't expect it to be the same on
everyone else's computer. There is no possible way to make that happen.

[1] E.g. body {font-family: "MS Sans Serif", Arial, sans-serif}
 
M

Mark Parnell

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, richardv2
font-family: "MS Sans-serif", sans-serif, Georgia, Whatever
Click to expand...

The last 2 font names there (Georgia and Whatever) are pointless -
sans-serif is the generic font family, so if the browser gets to that
point in the list, it will use its default sans-serif font. It will
never get to the rest of the list. If you want to specify multiple
fonts, they need to be before the generic option.
 
T

Toby Inkster

Jose said:
I don't have a font called "MS Sans Serif" on my (windows 98) computer.
Click to expand...

I bet you do. It just won't show up in most font listings because it's
not a TrueType font. Go to "Fonts" in "Control Panel" and I'm sure you'll
see it listed.

By default, it's what Windows 95/98/NT (and perhaps other versions) use
for their UI.

To the OP: as it's not a TrueType font, it's likely that many browsers
won't let you use it on a web page.
 
J

Jose

I bet you do. It just won't show up in most font listings because it's
not a TrueType font. Go to "Fonts" in "Control Panel" and I'm sure you'll
see it listed.
Click to expand...

Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle! I could swear there is a setting in
Word that says to use all fonts, and so I'd expect to have it available
in that list, but it isn't, even though I have the font.

Jose
 
S

Stewart Gordon

Jose said:
What does "get on every computer with" mean? If you mean you want to
have your web site be displayed in the font called "MS Sans Serif", you
mostly can't, even though you mostly can. First, I don't think MS Sans
Serif is a font, but a request to use one of many sans serif fonts (the
browser will use its default sans serif font, which is probably arial,
Click to expand...

Nonsense.

MS stands for Microsoft.

MS Sans Serif is a bitmap font that came with Windows 3.1 and some
subsequent Windows versions. It replaced Helv, which was in previous
versions of Windows. There was also MS Serif, which replaced Tms Rmn.

The CSS declaration

font-family: sans-serif;

persuades the browser to use a sans-serif font without specifying which
one. The HTML 'equivalent'

<font face="sans-serif">

also seems to work in SeaMonkey, though it doesn't appear to be part of
the standard.
but could be anything). I don't have a font called "MS Sans Serif" on
my (windows 98) computer.
Click to expand...

I hadn't realised they'd stopped providing it by that time. I'll have
to check when I get home.
In the case where it =is= a specific font, you can request that the
browser use it, but the font must be available on the computer for that
to work, otherwise the browser will use the "next best thing". Remember,
users may not want =your= font, they may well want =their= font (and
size). That should be honored.

That said - Arial is a dumass font for the net since it confuses several
letters and numbers, leading to easy impersonation.
Click to expand...

If you mean that the difference between I and l isn't obvious, then yes.
But that's true of many sans-serif fonts. And even some serif fonts
make l and 1 look almost identica1.

OTOH, there's a school of thought that thinks that sans-serif fonts are
actually best for online documents. Allegedly easier on the eyes, or
something like that.

Stewart.

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- C++@ a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K-@ w++@ O? M V? PS-
PE- Y? PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
 
T

Travis Newbury

I am finding that Arial and MS Sans Serif looks exactly the same...Is
this true or am I seeing things? I am trying to get on every computer
with MS Sans Serif because it is slightly
different from Arial - is there a way of doing this? Do I need to use
CSS? Thanks!
Click to expand...

You didn't even give yourself a breath before you contradicted
yourself...

"I am finding Arial and MS Sans Serif looks exactly the same..."

"I am trying to get on ever computer with MS Sans Serif because it is
slightly different from Arial."
 
T

Toby Inkster

Jose said:
Toby Inkster:


Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle! I could swear there is a setting in
Word that says to use all fonts, and so I'd expect to have it available
in that list, but it isn't, even though I have the font.
Click to expand...

Well, as it's a bitmapped font, it's only available at particular sizes.
Off the top of my head, 8.5pt and 10pt are a couple of them. Perhaps Word
hides it from the font menu unless you're in one of those sizes? Just an
idea.
 
S

Stewart Gordon

Toby Inkster wrote:
Well, as it's a bitmapped font, it's only available at particular sizes.
Off the top of my head, 8.5pt and 10pt are a couple of them. Perhaps Word
hides it from the font menu unless you're in one of those sizes? Just an
idea.
Click to expand...

Not all printers support Windows bitmap fonts. If you have such a
printer set up as the default, many applications will not list them.

I haven't come across any program that adjusts its font list to the size
that the user is in. Rather, if you use a bitmap font at what isn't one
of its sizes, then it will tend to use the closest size it can,
sometimes using a pixel resize to achieve a multiple of one of the
font's sizes.

Of course, when you have a bitmap font selected, some programs will
adjust the list of sizes to the font.

Stewart.

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- C++@ a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K-@ w++@ O? M V? PS-
PE- Y? PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Stewart said:
I hadn't realised they'd stopped providing it by that time. I'll have
to check when I get home.
Click to expand...

It's there, just that WinApps are 'TrueType' biased and many times don't
show the screen (bitmap) fonts. On any Windows machine click
'Start|Run..." enter 'charmap' and view all your installed fonts
including screen fonts like 'terminal' and 'fixsys'

If you mean that the difference between I and l isn't obvious, then yes.
But that's true of many sans-serif fonts. And even some serif fonts
make l and 1 look almost identica1.
Click to expand...

No that is not true. The confusion is between the uppercase 'i' and
lowercase 'l' with Arial (common to many sans-serif fonts). The number
'1' is distinguishable for the letter characters by a upper simplified
serif, (little tang going off the left) where the letter characters have
no such serif. Actually the legibility problem is with serif fonts like
Times and Times New Roman that have a problem between lowercase 'l' and
the numeral '1'!
OTOH, there's a school of thought that thinks that sans-serif fonts are
actually best for online documents. Allegedly easier on the eyes, or
something like that.
Click to expand...

They are easier to read because they are 'blacker' (heavier weight) in
general and the simplified lines are easier to read when smaller or in
lower contrast situations. Script and decorative fonts are probably the
least legible and should only be used sparingly
 
S

Stewart Gordon

Jonathan said:
No that is not true.
Click to expand...

What is not true?
The confusion is between the uppercase 'i' and
lowercase 'l' with Arial (common to many sans-serif fonts). The number
'1' is distinguishable for the letter characters by a upper simplified
serif, (little tang going off the left) where the letter characters have
no such serif. Actually the legibility problem is with serif fonts like
Times and Times New Roman that have a problem between lowercase 'l' and
the numeral '1'!
Click to expand...

You seem to be saying exactly what I just said, only in different words.
They are easier to read because they are 'blacker' (heavier weight) in
general and the simplified lines are easier to read when smaller or in
lower contrast situations. Script and decorative fonts are probably the
least legible and should only be used sparingly
Click to expand...

Does this mean that if you took a sans-serif font and added serifs to
it, then it would be as easy to read as the original sans-serif font?

Stewart.

--
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- C++@ a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K-@ w++@ O? M V? PS-
PE- Y? PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Stewart said:
What is not true?



You seem to be saying exactly what I just said, only in different words.
Click to expand...

Sorry you are correct, I misread what you wrote, we are saying the same
thing...

Does this mean that if you took a sans-serif font and added serifs to
it, then it would be as easy to read as the original sans-serif font?
Click to expand...

They [sans-serif] are easier to read because they are 'blacker' (heavier
weight) in general and the simplified lines are easier to read
[especially] when smaller or in lower contrast situations.

Serif fonts are genenerally more difficult to read in the above situations.

Script and decorative fonts are *least* legible I said. A whole page
full of 'Aristocrat', 'Old English' or 'Kidnap' can be a b*tch to read
especially in great quantity and in reduced sizes (font-size<100%).
 

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