How do I remove the border around images?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by FluxForums, Feb 22, 2004.

  1. FluxForums

    FluxForums Guest

    FluxForums, Feb 22, 2004
    #1
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  2. FluxForums

    SpaceGirl Guest

    SpaceGirl, Feb 22, 2004
    #2
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  3. FluxForums

    Cameron Guest

    SpaceGirl wrote:
    > "FluxForums" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>Place
    >>border=0
    >>within the "<img" tag area.
    >>--
    >>FluxForums
    >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >>FluxForums's Profile:

    >
    > http://www.fluxforums.com/member.php?action=getinfo&userid=1
    >
    >>View this thread: http://www.fluxforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=193

    >
    >
    > NO!!! use STYLESHEETs.
    >
    >


    *Sigh* I do wish people would stop considering not using style sheets a
    crime, I personally half use them, that is just for colour, in the
    future I may use them for everything, but at the moment with all the
    "this works in x but doesn't work in z" I would rather wait a bit, my
    site is done with tables for positioning, and displays fine in moz
    firebird, konqueror, IE and even Lynx, not that there is much on it at
    the moment hehe.

    ~Cameron
     
    Cameron, Feb 22, 2004
    #3
  4. FluxForums

    Kris Guest

    In article <c1a511$tct$>,
    Cameron <> wrote:

    > >>border=0
    > >>within the "<img" tag area.


    > > NO!!! use STYLESHEETs.


    > *Sigh* I do wish people would stop considering not using style sheets a
    > crime, I personally half use them, that is just for colour, in the
    > future I may use them for everything, but at the moment with all the
    > "this works in x but doesn't work in z" I would rather wait a bit,


    Wouldn't you define your answer rather like "Use stylesheets whenever
    you can and in exceptional cases, like [...], use the border attribute
    on the IMG tag"?

    This has quickly become a mix of wrong information, incomplete
    argumentation and personal preference. Not that that will be very
    helpful to anyone.

    --
    Kris
    <> (nl)
    <http://www.cinnamon.nl/>
     
    Kris, Feb 22, 2004
    #4
  5. FluxForums

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "Kris" <> wrote in message
    news:4all.nl...
    > In article <c1a511$tct$>,
    > Cameron <> wrote:
    >
    > > >>border=0
    > > >>within the "<img" tag area.

    >
    > > > NO!!! use STYLESHEETs.

    >
    > > *Sigh* I do wish people would stop considering not using style sheets a
    > > crime, I personally half use them, that is just for colour, in the
    > > future I may use them for everything, but at the moment with all the
    > > "this works in x but doesn't work in z" I would rather wait a bit,

    >
    > Wouldn't you define your answer rather like "Use stylesheets whenever
    > you can and in exceptional cases, like [...], use the border attribute
    > on the IMG tag"?
    >
    > This has quickly become a mix of wrong information, incomplete
    > argumentation and personal preference. Not that that will be very
    > helpful to anyone.
    >


    adding
    img { border:0px; }

    inside your stylesheet is much more efficient than adding border=0 in EVERY
    SINGLE image tag on your page. It means if later on you want to add a
    border, or special formatting to your images, you only have to change ONE
    LINE to effect EVERY image on the ENTIRE website. Why make work for yourself
    and do it any other way?
     
    SpaceGirl, Feb 22, 2004
    #5
  6. FluxForums

    Cameron Guest

    Kris wrote:
    > In article <c1a511$tct$>,
    > Cameron <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>>border=0
    >>>>within the "<img" tag area.

    >
    >
    >>>NO!!! use STYLESHEETs.

    >
    >
    >>*Sigh* I do wish people would stop considering not using style sheets a
    >>crime, I personally half use them, that is just for colour, in the
    >>future I may use them for everything, but at the moment with all the
    >>"this works in x but doesn't work in z" I would rather wait a bit,

    >
    >
    > Wouldn't you define your answer rather like "Use stylesheets whenever
    > you can and in exceptional cases, like [...], use the border attribute
    > on the IMG tag"?
    >
    > This has quickly become a mix of wrong information, incomplete
    > argumentation and personal preference. Not that that will be very
    > helpful to anyone.
    >


    I wasn't speaking about any CSS/Element/Attribute in particular, I was
    more annoyed at the horror produced when someone mentions using tables
    and in some cases reffering to said people as idiots.


    ~Cameron
     
    Cameron, Feb 22, 2004
    #6
  7. FluxForums

    DU Guest

    FluxForums wrote:

    > Place
    > border=0
    > within the "<img" tag area.


    IMO, this is a wrong question. By default, every image has no border
    around it. Only clickable links can have a border around it. Now, if you
    remove border around every clickable links, how is the user going to
    know, see and figure out easily and quickly which images are clickable?

    You increase the usability of a webpage by letting such border exist
    around image.

    DU
     
    DU, Feb 22, 2004
    #7
  8. FluxForums

    Cameron Guest

    DU wrote:
    > FluxForums wrote:
    >
    >> Place border=0
    >> within the "<img" tag area.

    >
    >
    > IMO, this is a wrong question. By default, every image has no border
    > around it. Only clickable links can have a border around it. Now, if you
    > remove border around every clickable links, how is the user going to
    > know, see and figure out easily and quickly which images are clickable?
    >
    > You increase the usability of a webpage by letting such border exist
    > around image.
    >
    > DU


    This may be true however every webmaster/mistress I know gets rid of
    this border, so people wouldn't know what it was even if it was there,
    I'm a fan of text links anyway.

    ~Cameron
     
    Cameron, Feb 22, 2004
    #8
  9. FluxForums

    DU Guest

    Cameron wrote:

    > DU wrote:
    >
    >> FluxForums wrote:
    >>
    >>> Place border=0
    >>> within the "<img" tag area.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> IMO, this is a wrong question. By default, every image has no border
    >> around it. Only clickable links can have a border around it. Now, if
    >> you remove border around every clickable links, how is the user going
    >> to know, see and figure out easily and quickly which images are
    >> clickable?
    >>
    >> You increase the usability of a webpage by letting such border exist
    >> around image.
    >>
    >> DU

    >
    >
    > This may be true however every webmaster/mistress I know gets rid of
    > this border, so people wouldn't know what it was even if it was there,
    > I'm a fan of text links anyway.
    >
    > ~Cameron


    There are lots of ways to reduce the usability and accessibility of a
    site. When people - and I just don't care who they are or how many they
    are - intentionally and deliberately remove such borders, then they
    remove user interactivity on their own site. Like you say, they create a
    link and they remove the visual feedback by which the user can identify,
    quickly and easily see, recognize where are the links: it's anti-usability.

    DU
     
    DU, Feb 22, 2004
    #9
  10. FluxForums

    Paul Furman Guest

    DU wrote:
    > [when webmasters] remove the visual feedback by which the user can identify,
    > quickly and easily see, recognize where are the links: it's anti-usability.



    Understood but do you have an example of a site with link bordered
    images that doesn't look just awful? Maybe there is a way to do it that
    I'm not thinking of. It always just looks so tacky to have that ugly
    blue frame around a picture. Maybe adding linked text below absolves the
    responsibility to border the image?
     
    Paul Furman, Feb 22, 2004
    #10
  11. FluxForums

    Karl Core Guest

    "DU" <> wrote in message
    news:c1ar33$s05$...
    > Cameron wrote:
    >
    > > DU wrote:
    > >
    > >> FluxForums wrote:
    > >> IMO, this is a wrong question. By default, every image has no border
    > >> around it. Only clickable links can have a border around it. Now, if
    > >> you remove border around every clickable links, how is the user going
    > >> to know, see and figure out easily and quickly which images are
    > >> clickable?
    > >>
    > >> You increase the usability of a webpage by letting such border exist
    > >> around image.
    > >>
    > >> DU

    > >
    > >
    > > This may be true however every webmaster/mistress I know gets rid of
    > > this border, so people wouldn't know what it was even if it was there,
    > > I'm a fan of text links anyway.
    > >
    > > ~Cameron

    >
    > There are lots of ways to reduce the usability and accessibility of a
    > site. When people - and I just don't care who they are or how many they
    > are - intentionally and deliberately remove such borders, then they
    > remove user interactivity on their own site. Like you say, they create a
    > link and they remove the visual feedback by which the user can identify,
    > quickly and easily see, recognize where are the links: it's

    anti-usability.

    I can definitely agree with the sentiment behind what you say, I've yet to
    see a usability study that shows that *borderless* images are a usability
    problem.
    More important, IMO, is whether the user feels that the image seems
    "clickable" and understands what will happen when they click it.
    A well-located icon depicting a little house that says "Home" in a clearly
    legible font is made no more or less "usable" as a link to the home page if
    it does/ does not have a blue border around it.


    --

    Karl Groves
    http://www.karlcore.com
     
    Karl Core, Feb 22, 2004
    #11
  12. FluxForums

    Chris Guest

    Paul Furman wrote in message ...
    > It always just looks so tacky to have that ugly
    > blue frame around a picture.


    It doesn't *have* to be a blue frame. You can make the link-colour any
    colour you wish to enhance the image if you wish, as long as you make it
    clear to your visitors that those images with ?? coloured frames are
    clickable.
     
    Chris, Feb 22, 2004
    #12
  13. FluxForums

    Els Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:

    > DU wrote:
    >
    >> [when webmasters] remove the visual feedback by which the user can
    >> identify, quickly and easily see, recognize where are the links: it's
    >> anti-usability.

    >
    > Understood but do you have an example of a site with link bordered
    > images that doesn't look just awful? Maybe there is a way to do it that
    > I'm not thinking of. It always just looks so tacky to have that ugly
    > blue frame around a picture. Maybe adding linked text below absolves the
    > responsibility to border the image?


    I resolved to showing almost no border around the images,
    but have it change colour visibly when moused over.
    From the stats I see that just about 99% of visitors
    understands that the images are clickable. From the 1% (or
    less) that doesn't click, I don't know if it is 'cause they
    didn't realize they could, or if it's lack of interest.
    Example:
    http://www.mediatech.nl/~rachel/Rachel/livemetallicafieldsofrock.html
    or any other page on the site.



    --
    Els

    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
     
    Els, Feb 22, 2004
    #13
  14. FluxForums

    Nik Coughin Guest

    DU wrote:
    > Cameron wrote:
    >
    >> DU wrote:
    >>
    >>> FluxForums wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Place border=0
    >>>> within the "<img" tag area.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> IMO, this is a wrong question. By default, every image has no border
    >>> around it. Only clickable links can have a border around it. Now, if
    >>> you remove border around every clickable links, how is the user
    >>> going to know, see and figure out easily and quickly which images
    >>> are clickable?
    >>>
    >>> You increase the usability of a webpage by letting such border exist
    >>> around image.
    >>>
    >>> DU

    >>
    >>
    >> This may be true however every webmaster/mistress I know gets rid of
    >> this border, so people wouldn't know what it was even if it was
    >> there, I'm a fan of text links anyway.
    >>
    >> ~Cameron

    >
    > There are lots of ways to reduce the usability and accessibility of a
    > site. When people - and I just don't care who they are or how many
    > they are - intentionally and deliberately remove such borders, then
    > they
    > remove user interactivity on their own site. Like you say, they
    > create a link and they remove the visual feedback by which the user
    > can identify, quickly and easily see, recognize where are the links:
    > it's anti-usability.
    >
    > DU


    I have links which exist on the same page in both icon and text form. The
    icons look pretty. They don't look pretty with a border. The icons are
    blatently navigation, this is apparent the second that the page opens from
    both their graphical style and positioning. Even if people fail to notice
    that, there is a navigation column containing the same links as text. The
    cursor changes when you mouseover the images. The alt text for the images
    is the same as the text links. You can't make blanket statements saying
    that "this thing" or "that thing" is always bad.
     
    Nik Coughin, Feb 22, 2004
    #14
  15. Toby A Inkster, Feb 22, 2004
    #15
  16. FluxForums

    Els Guest

    Toby A Inkster wrote:

    > Paul Furman wrote:
    >
    >>Understood but do you have an example of a site with link bordered
    >>images that doesn't look just awful?

    >
    > http://www.huzzie.org/gallery/gracelands/


    You may want to add a (black) border to the main div, it
    will stop the left side slipping off the screen when you
    narrow your window in Gecko browsers. :)


    --
    Els

    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
     
    Els, Feb 22, 2004
    #16
  17. FluxForums

    Kris Guest

    In article <c1a7h6$1et$>,
    Cameron <> wrote:

    > > This has quickly become a mix of wrong information, incomplete
    > > argumentation and personal preference. Not that that will be very
    > > helpful to anyone.


    > I wasn't speaking about any CSS/Element/Attribute in particular, I was
    > more annoyed at the horror produced when someone mentions using tables


    You are the first to mention one in this thread.

    > and in some cases reffering to said people as idiots.


    Another first-timer.

    --
    Kris
    <> (nl)
    <http://www.cinnamon.nl/>
     
    Kris, Feb 22, 2004
    #17
  18. FluxForums

    Cameron Guest

    Kris wrote:
    > In article <c1a7h6$1et$>,
    > Cameron <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>This has quickly become a mix of wrong information, incomplete
    >>>argumentation and personal preference. Not that that will be very
    >>>helpful to anyone.

    >
    >
    >>I wasn't speaking about any CSS/Element/Attribute in particular, I was
    >>more annoyed at the horror produced when someone mentions using tables

    >
    >
    > You are the first to mention one in this thread.
    >
    >
    >>and in some cases reffering to said people as idiots.

    >
    >
    > Another first-timer.
    >


    Granted the second wasn't in this thread but Space girl was horrified
    because someone suggested using tables in THIS THREAD.

    ~Cameron
     
    Cameron, Feb 22, 2004
    #18
  19. FluxForums

    DU Guest

    Karl Core wrote:

    > "DU" <> wrote in message
    > news:c1ar33$s05$...
    >
    >>Cameron wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>DU wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>FluxForums wrote:
    >>>>IMO, this is a wrong question. By default, every image has no border
    >>>>around it. Only clickable links can have a border around it. Now, if
    >>>>you remove border around every clickable links, how is the user going
    >>>>to know, see and figure out easily and quickly which images are
    >>>>clickable?
    >>>>
    >>>>You increase the usability of a webpage by letting such border exist
    >>>>around image.
    >>>>
    >>>>DU
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>This may be true however every webmaster/mistress I know gets rid of
    >>>this border, so people wouldn't know what it was even if it was there,
    >>>I'm a fan of text links anyway.
    >>>
    >>>~Cameron

    >>
    >>There are lots of ways to reduce the usability and accessibility of a
    >>site. When people - and I just don't care who they are or how many they
    >>are - intentionally and deliberately remove such borders, then they
    >>remove user interactivity on their own site. Like you say, they create a
    >>link and they remove the visual feedback by which the user can identify,
    >>quickly and easily see, recognize where are the links: it's

    >
    > anti-usability.
    >
    > I can definitely agree with the sentiment behind what you say, I've yet to
    > see a usability study that shows that *borderless* images are a usability
    > problem.


    I have no usability study at hand, just my own surfing experience. In
    several pages where clickable images have been made borderless, I
    couldn't figure out easily which images are clickable.

    > More important, IMO, is whether the user feels that the image seems
    > "clickable"


    Sometimes, the content of an image is itself intuitive and
    self-explanatory and clearly indicating that the image is clickable.

    and understands what will happen when they click it.

    Correct. Before clicking a link (or a clickable image) which opens up a
    popup, the user should be informed that such link will open the
    referenced resource in a popup: that's a WAI guideline/recommendation.
    That's why coding the title attribute and/or using an icon is best.

    > A well-located icon depicting a little house that says "Home"


    In such case, I would recommend to use a text link only as there are
    many variations of "Home" icon due to browser themes.
    Also, images are almost always inferior to text when you can choose
    between the 2.
    Coding <link rel="home" ...> or <link rel="start" ...> will be made
    usable for browsers rendering Site Navigation toolbar and in such cases,
    this is much more reliable, usable, consistent than a clickable "Home"
    image or even a text link.

    in a clearly
    > legible font is made no more or less "usable" as a link to the home page if
    > it does/ does not have a blue border around it.
    >
    >


    A border (the default - in browsers - color for unvisited links is blue)
    around clickable images immediately and visually indicates, reveals such
    images: no mouseover needed, no examination of the page code needed, no
    page info tab to examine.
    Just imagine how difficult-to-use and pointless would be accesskey if
    they were not underlined (or between parentheses or without any visual
    indication).

    DU
     
    DU, Feb 23, 2004
    #19
  20. FluxForums

    DU Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:
    > DU wrote:
    >
    >> [when webmasters] remove the visual feedback by which the user can
    >> identify, quickly and easily see, recognize where are the links: it's
    >> anti-usability.

    >
    >
    >
    > Understood but do you have an example of a site with link bordered
    > images that doesn't look just awful?


    The answer is almost. I'm working on upgrading entirely a site I
    designed several years ago and this issue of border for clickable images
    is on my to-do list.

    Maybe there is a way to do it that
    > I'm not thinking of. It always just looks so tacky to have that ugly
    > blue frame around a picture. Maybe adding linked text below absolves the
    > responsibility to border the image?
    >


    Text below or above... it all depends on the page, image, etc. The only
    and main issue (usability goal pursued) that I submitted was to indicate
    visually (static indication) which images are clickable in a page and
    then (best) to apply such visual indication in a consistent manner
    across such site. This can tremendously help user interactivity and
    usability of a site.

    DU
     
    DU, Feb 23, 2004
    #20
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