How do they do it? Professional looking sites...

B

Barbara de Zoete

Enlightenment. Yes, I agree that people need to be educated as to *why*
it is important for a site to be accessible, but the law makes sure that
regardless of what they feel about the subject that they *must* comply
and sends the message that as a society we deem it unacceptable for a
site to ignore 20% of the population.

20% Is it really? That comes as quite a shock to me. I never heard this
large a percentage. Come to think of it, I never heard a number before.

Wow, gives me something to think upon (not only regarding building and
maintaining websites BTW). I thought I took care for my site to be
accessible. I'll stop just thinking about it. I'll go in and check again
and see what ajustments I can make that are necessary.
 
B

Barbara de Zoete

Think about it this way; These big companies (take a bank for example)
has already had to spend millions of £s refitting their buildings in the
UK to allow for wheelchair access where no access existed before. This
is the law and companies had to comply by the deadline of (I think) some
time last month. It's going to cost them significantly less than those
millions to rebuild their inaccessible Websites.

I know that and although it is true, I was merely responding to you,
stating:
 
M

Michael Winter

[snip]
Does that mean that you think your local supermarket/clothes
shop/public library shouldn't have to provide access for wheelchairs
because it isn't a government agency?

Well, yes I think they should, but, no, I don't think it is necessary
they print their advertisement material in braille (wouldn't that be
five kilo's of a mess in my mailbox every week, if not more ;-) )

The information doesn't have to be distributed. However, if someone
requests an information booklet in Braille, a company (and other groups
affected by the legislation) should provide it.
I'm not saying they shouldn't. I'm wondering why it should be obligatory
by law. That is a different angle.

I expect because the thinking is if there's no obligation, why go to the
trouble of providing alternative means? This is unacceptable.

As far as publishing goes (your apparant gripe), I don't believe it
applies at all. However, it would apply to a company's documentation. Of
course, that doesn't mean such a company should spend millions on
producing massive amounts of large-print and Braille copies, but they
should be available if needed.

[snip]
I think proper information (I'm looking for the word here; in Dutch:
voorlichting. Maybe someone can help and translate? TIA) is of far
greater worth that a law.

Education would be an appropriate word in context, but I don't know if
that's what you were looking for. I don't know the language, and machine
translation gives "information".

[snip]

Mike
 
D

Dylan Parry

Barbara said:
20% Is it really? That comes as quite a shock to me. I never heard this
large a percentage. Come to think of it, I never heard a number before.

Yes, it really is that high! I've recently been looking at the census
figures for the US (1990 & 2000) and UK (1991 & 2001) and both show that
not only is the percentage of people with a disability[1] recently been
measured at ~20%[2], but it has almost doubled[3] in the last 10 years
due to an aging population.

_____
[1] Disability meaning a mobility, hearing, vision, cognition or seizure
disorders; all of which can has serious effects on the way one can use
the WWW.
[2] A total of 18.2% in the UK, and 19.3% in the US, but depending on
the age band, this figure varies significantly with people 65+ being
upwards of 40% in the US!
[3] UK: from 13.3 -> 18.2 and US: 11.9 -> 19.3
 
B

Barbara de Zoete

[snip]
Does that mean that you think your local supermarket/clothes
shop/public library shouldn't have to provide access for wheelchairs
because it isn't a government agency?

Well, yes I think they should, but, no, I don't think it is necessary
they print their advertisement material in braille (wouldn't that be
five kilo's of a mess in my mailbox every week, if not more ;-) )

The information doesn't have to be distributed. However, if someone
requests an information booklet in Braille, a company (and other groups
affected by the legislation) should provide it.

Hmm, I can immagin that is harsh for smaller businesses. What if one fails
to produce that booklet in braille or large print?
Education would be an appropriate word in context, but I don't know if
that's what you were looking for. I don't know the language, and machine
translation gives "information".

Finally took the time to look it up in the dictionary. It says:
<Dutch>voorlichting< />
enlightment, instruction(s), advice, information, guidance
<Dutch>voorlichtingsdienst< />
Office of Information

I guess: take your pick :)

I would have thought it was 'public education' or something, but
appearantly it is not.
 
M

Michael Winter

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 21:23:06 GMT, Michael Winter
[snip]
f someone requests an information booklet in Braille, a company (and
other groups affected by the legislation) should provide it.


Hmm, I can immagin that is harsh for smaller businesses.


As I said previously, small businesses aren't expected to go to the same
lengths.
What if one fails to produce that booklet in braille or large print?

** Speculation **

It would depend. If the court decided that it is within the ability of the
company to provide that information - that the request isn't unreasonable
- I think they're first ordered to meet the needs of the person (or
people) that filed the action. If they fail that, they're fined.

Sorry, but I'm not going to look it up, though if Dylan's been researching
the subject, he might know (at least whether I'm on the right lines).

[snip]
I would have thought it was 'public education' or something, but
appearantly it is not.

I expect it is, based on the context. As I said, education is the word I'd
probably use.

Mike
 
D

David Dorward

Nothing is gained or obtained for free, ever. Someone has to get the
proper skill.

People who create websites professionally should have the skill already. The
problem is that currently there are a lot of people out there who have
learned how to go about things the wrong way. Legislation hasn't had enough
time to change that yet.
 
D

Dylan Parry

Michael said:
Sorry, but I'm not going to look it up, though if Dylan's been
researching the subject, he might know (at least whether I'm on the
right lines).

You're kind of on the right lines. The idea is that anyone (they must be
disabled) with a complaint about a service they encounter that does not
provide the necessary access for their needs can contact the Disability
Rights Commission, who will then investigate their complaints --- in the
same way as Trading Standards do --- and then if necessary they have the
power to initiate prosecution proceedings against the negligent company.

So far, the DRC haven't actually used their prosecution powers yet, but
only time will tell! And as always, IANAL ;)
 
B

Barbara de Zoete

People who create websites professionally should have the skill already.

I like idealism when I spot it :)
The
problem is that currently there are a lot of people out there who have
learned how to go about things the wrong way. Legislation hasn't had
enough time to change that yet.

I know. I am a civil servant myself with a large national governmental
organisation. The people providing electronic services, both www and
intranet, were educated and trained like in the end of the 80's, perhaps
as recent as twelve years ago. The young crowd with new, up to date skills
and knowledge and a different set of competencies all together, never got
in. And if they did, they recently got sacked with the latest or previous
efficiency reorganisations.

I mean, a governmental organisation of about 70 thousand people and their
webmasters use FrontPage (no kidding!), frames (no kidding) and true
beauties like <P><FONT SIZE="2"></FONT></P><FONT SIZE="3"><H2>Ministerie
van [...]</H2></FONT><P><FONT SIZE="2"><BR><BR><BR> are not noticed before
stuff gets published. How on earth are you going to fix this system? I
don't think the Netherlands are ready for legislation on accessibility of
www publications, yet.
 
B

Barbara de Zoete

Barbara said:
20% Is it really? That comes as quite a shock to me. I never heard
this large a percentage. Come to think of it, I never heard a number
before.

Yes, it really is that high! I've recently been looking at the census
figures for the US (1990 & 2000) and UK (1991 & 2001) and both show that
not only is the percentage of people with a disability[1] recently been
measured at ~20%[2], but it has almost doubled[3] in the last 10 years
due to an aging population.

_____
[1] Disability meaning a mobility, hearing, vision, cognition or seizure
disorders; all of which can has serious effects on the way one can use
the WWW.
[2] A total of 18.2% in the UK, and 19.3% in the US, but depending on
the age band, this figure varies significantly with people 65+ being
upwards of 40% in the US!
[3] UK: from 13.3 -> 18.2 and US: 11.9 -> 19.3

Thank you for this information and that in the other post
(<I have to rethink my notion of
the world around me for a while. That will have impact on how I build my
site. I already take care of accessibility (I think) but never was really
aware.

All this, and it is only saterday evening. What's next this weekend :)
 
K

Kris

Barbara de Zoete said:
I don't think the Netherlands are ready for legislation on accessibility of
www publications, yet.

As close to the source as I can get, I was told recently there is not
going to be any legislation in the Netherlands on this topic soon.

There are, however, initiatives like these: http://webrichtlijnen.overheid.nl/
 
D

Dylan Parry

Kris said:
As close to the source as I can get, I was told recently there is not
going to be any legislation in the Netherlands on this topic soon.

In October 2000, the EU decided that member states *must* introduce laws
protecting the rights of disabled people, but AFAICT there is no exact
time-scale stating when this needs to be done by. Of course, the
revisions to the EU Treaty (1997) mean that it is /technically/ illegal
for a Website to _discriminate_ against disabled visitors, but that
would mean that they would have to be going out of their way to /ensure/
that disabled people can't access the site before the law applied, or be
proved to be *deliberately* doing things that constitute an
accessibility issue.
 
B

Barbara de Zoete

As close to the source as I can get, I was told recently there is not
going to be any legislation in the Netherlands on this topic soon.

There are, however, initiatives like these:
http://webrichtlijnen.overheid.nl/

I do know that. At the moment there is just not the manpower, the
knowledge, the money. And the will. Government has to downsize so
dramatically, espescially at a national level, that all is focussed on
that.
Those that do well are mostly governments of smaller cities. Some of them
relying on the trained amateur that gets promoted in to the webdesign
department. I've seen it happen. Or services that thrive with e-'anything
interactive will be effective and efficient', like tax sercives and police
departments. Although I'm not actually sure if those services do good on
any accessibility checks. I just know they are know to the public and get
used well.
 
L

Liz

In message <opsih4okmix5vgts@zoete_b>
Barbara de Zoete said:
It's their loss. If they find out that they can get to that marketshare
with ease and no extra cost at all, they will.

I don't agree that the marketshare would increase by 20%.
Even if the proportion of computer-using people who can't mouse is 20%,
which I doubt [1], only a proportion of these will have the disposable
income to make them a possible market for many 'non-essential goods'
suppliers. Even a friend who was very well off (by our standards) soon found
he didn't have as much disposable income as before after he'd made the
necessary adaptations to his house when he became ill.

That law about accessibility in the UK makes a lot of things silly:

Ex 1 My sister managed a University Hall of Residence. They had to spend a
huge amount of money (over 50,000UKP) so that the whole Hall and every part
of it was wheelchair accessible. They've never had a student in a
wheelchair, and won't now, as the Uni has sold the building to developers,
who won't use the accessibility work done as they are completely changing
the interior for another use. That's £50,000 of taxpayers' money down the
drain.

Ex 2 My husband teaches an Introduction to Ornithology course to adults.
When he sets out the course plan for the brochure, all places he visits must
be wheelchair accessible, which more-or-less limits him to public parks,
which because of the number of people visiting aren't the best places to see
birds. By definition, many of the best places to see birds are on private
land, and not wheelchair accessible. So on the first day with each new
class, he watches them come in and takes them a walk in a wheelchair
accessible park, watching to see if any seem to have difficulties with
mobility. When they get back to the room, he puts it to them that they
change the scheduled programme to visit the better places. He knows that
more people would probably sign up if the other places were listed in the
brochure!
In the 'old days' you just had to say "participants should have a reasonable
level of physical fitness and wear stout walking shoes, since some paths are
rough."

All the above is not an argument for not making sites (web or physical)
accessible, and I do realise that I could find myself in a wheelchair or
worse tomorrow - but in that case, my 'discretionary' disposable income will
be very low - not enough to make me a target audience for anyone other than
Tescos (UK supermarket).

My sister, who because of the work in her Hall is well up on these things,
seems to think that this legislation will soon extend to the rest of the EU,
if it doesn't already. When we were at Pompeii, she observed that they'll
'have to get rid of the cobbles' in the streets - and particularly the
'stepping stones'. I really, really hope the legislation doesn't extend that
far: that would be taking away the essential 'suchness' of Pompeii.
(On our bus tour from Rome there was a lady in a wheelchair, but as she was
also blind, and only spoke Spanish (the tour was in English and German), I'm
not sure what she hoped to get out of the trip anyway. She stayed in the
visitor centre and listened to the video.)

[1] Having read on the thread to Dylan's post, I suspect that a lot of the
20% have 'cognition' difficulties, which as we've already noted on another
thread is a different problem altogether, and much more difficult to deal
with. People with serious cognition difficulties also are less likely to
have much of a discretionary disposable income.

Liz
 
T

Toby Inkster

David said:
People who create websites professionally should have the skill already.

True. Architects should know how to design a house that wont fall down on
its inhabitants. Doctors should be able to prescribe drugs that won't do
their patients more harm than good. Engineers should be able to build
bridges that won't collapse, killing hundreds of people. Electricians
should be able to wire a plug socket in such a way that it won't blow up
when the device is switched on.

It's called professionalism and it's shouldn't be too much to ask for.
 
K

Kyote

[snip]
I hope what you said about Australia is simply rumor.

I doubt it. The UK has similar laws, and so does the USA (to a certain
extent). I wouldn't be at all surprised if the EU decides to introduce
similar legislation sometime in the future.
Because anyone that tries to make it illegal for Others to be
independently creative, well, to me that would be a terrible shame.

What?! How on Earth does legislation regarding accessibility in any way
prevent creativity? Don't talk nonsense.

Sorry, but I wasn't talking nonsense. I was staying on topic. I
thought he meant that a personal site(web site) had to conform to
government standards. That's all I was talking about. If you look at
the subject of this discussion you'll see I was talking about
Professional LOOKING sites. Not a Commercial site.
 

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