How to compromise with other programer/PM's bug?

Discussion in 'Java' started by Boki, Dec 5, 2005.

  1. Boki

    Boki Guest

    Hi All,
    Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he
    always change new spec; and then we have to change code again and agin.
    Moreover, anyone's change is possible to affect our's design, right? and
    then we have to update again and again..

    How do you think?

    Best regards,
    Boki.
     
    Boki, Dec 5, 2005
    #1
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  2. Boki

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:50:16 +0800, "Boki" <>
    wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

    > Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he
    >always change new spec; and then we have to change code again and agin.
    >Moreover, anyone's change is possible to affect our's design, right? and
    >then we have to update again and again..


    Though it may be frustrating, you write the contract so that you get a
    lot more money when this happens. If you are an employee, the person
    who oks the changes is the one who gets called on the carpet for going
    over budget.

    Usually you have the other problem, a boss trying hide garbage under
    the rug who won't let you take time to refactor/redesign code.

    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
     
    Roedy Green, Dec 5, 2005
    #2
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  3. Boki

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 09:50:16 +0800, "Boki" <>
    wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

    > Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he
    >always change new spec; and then we have to change code again and agin.
    >Moreover, anyone's change is possible to affect our's design, right? and
    >then we have to update again and again..


    If changes to only vaguely related code trigger changes in yours, then
    you need to thing harder about how to decouple, so that only one small
    part of your code ties into the other code, and all your code goes
    through that interface.

    One of things I got such a kick out of in your situation is PREDICTING
    what the boss was going to demand to be corrected and planning ahead
    so that I could kick in the new implementation by changing a table or
    a configuration constant. I would come back 15 minutes later to the
    astounded boss with the completed work.

    The art of writing maintainable code is trying to guess what will
    likely change and plan ahead to make those changes easy. I have
    written an essay on how to make it difficult. See
    http://mindprod.com/gloss/unmain.html


    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
     
    Roedy Green, Dec 5, 2005
    #3
  4. Boki

    Rhino Guest

    "Boki" <> wrote in message
    news:dn06cm$hl$...
    > Hi All,
    > Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he
    > always change new spec; and then we have to change code again and agin.
    > Moreover, anyone's change is possible to affect our's design, right? and
    > then we have to update again and again..
    >
    > How do you think?
    >

    I think you'd better get used to this. After 20+ years in systems work, let
    me suggest that this sort of behaviour is more the rule than an exception.
    Users and managers tend to change specs at frequent intervals, even when
    they should know that it causes all sorts of negative consequences, like
    frustration on the part of the developers.

    I was once on a project that involved 150 full time people, $15 million
    dollars, 2.5 years of elapsed time and the prestige of some high profile
    people. One of the first things the project leaders agreed upon was that the
    specs couldn't change after a certain date. At all. Despite that
    realization, major changes were being made almost every day, even well after
    that date had passed. I'd like to be able to tell you that the project
    succeeded despite this violation of their own principles but I'd be lying.

    It's not pretty but it does tend to be the way the real world works. It
    might be best to accustom yourself to this now, rather than letting it grind
    you down later.

    Rhino
     
    Rhino, Dec 5, 2005
    #4
  5. Boki

    Rhino Guest

    "Boki" <> wrote in message
    news:dn06cm$hl$...
    > Hi All,
    > Our PM( project manager) want to do a perfact job, and then he
    > always change new spec; and then we have to change code again and agin.
    > Moreover, anyone's change is possible to affect our's design, right? and
    > then we have to update again and again..
    >
    > How do you think?
    >

    I think you'd better get used to this. After 20+ years in systems work, let
    me suggest that this sort of behaviour is more the rule than an exception.
    Users and managers tend to change specs at frequent intervals, even when
    they should know that it causes all sorts of negative consequences, like
    frustration on the part of the developers.

    I was once on a project that involved 150 full time people, $15 million
    dollars, 2.5 years of elapsed time and the prestige of some high profile
    people. One of the first things the project leaders agreed upon was that the
    specs couldn't change after a certain date. At all. Despite that
    realization, major changes were being made almost every day, even well after
    that date had passed. I'd like to be able to tell you that the project
    succeeded despite this violation of their own principles but I'd be lying.

    It's not pretty but it does tend to be the way the real world works. It
    might be best to accustom yourself to this now, rather than letting it grind
    you down later.

    Rhino
     
    Rhino, Dec 5, 2005
    #5
  6. Boki

    Guest

    I can only say this is not profession PM.

    At least, I don't agree this. : )


    Best regards,
    Boki.
     
    , Dec 5, 2005
    #6
  7. Boki

    Roedy Green Guest

    On 5 Dec 2005 08:09:49 -0800, wrote, quoted or
    indirectly quoted someone who said :

    >I can only say this is not profession PM.
    >
    >At least, I don't agree this. : )


    Your disillusionment is similar to a similar one coming when you
    discover that government works nothing at all the way you learned in
    civics class.
    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
     
    Roedy Green, Dec 5, 2005
    #7
  8. Boki

    Ian Pilcher Guest

    wrote:
    > I can only say this is not profession PM.


    As others have pointed out, you should be very grateful to have a P.M.
    who gives you the time to change your code when the spec changes, and
    presumably creates additional revenue for your employer by doing so.

    This is, in fact, the very definition of professional project
    management.

    > At least, I don't agree this. : )


    You need to grow up or change careers.

    --
    ========================================================================
    Ian Pilcher
    ========================================================================
     
    Ian Pilcher, Dec 5, 2005
    #8
  9. "Roedy Green" <> wrote in
    message news:...
    > On 5 Dec 2005 08:09:49 -0800, wrote, quoted or
    > indirectly quoted someone who said :
    >
    >>I can only say this is not profession PM.
    >>
    >>At least, I don't agree this. : )

    >
    > Your disillusionment is similar to a similar one coming when you
    > discover that government works nothing at all the way you learned in
    > civics class.


    I can think of plenty of US examples. Do you have any from Canada?

    --
    LTP

    :)
     
    Luc The Perverse, Dec 5, 2005
    #9
  10. Boki

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 14:21:58 -0700, "Luc The Perverse"
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly
    quoted someone who said :

    >I can think of plenty of US examples. Do you have any from Canada?

    We are wandering off topic here.

    Things not covered:

    1. the way parties change their platforms for strategic reasons in a
    multiparty election.

    2. the amount of lying at election time about what a party intends to
    do and what they do.

    3. that elected governments reflect the will of the people, rather
    than the will of the powerful.

    4. how bribery works. It is rarely handing over an envelope of cash.
    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
     
    Roedy Green, Dec 5, 2005
    #10
  11. On 2005-12-05, Roedy Green penned:
    >
    > 3. that elected governments reflect the will of the people, rather
    > than the will of the powerful.
    >


    Er, did you mean that the other way around? In theory it's the will of
    the people ... in practice it's whatever the powerful can spin enough
    people into swallowing ...


    --
    monique

    Ask smart questions, get good answers:
    http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
     
    Monique Y. Mudama, Dec 5, 2005
    #11
  12. Boki

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:41:51 -0700, "Monique Y. Mudama"
    <> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone who
    said :

    >Er, did you mean that the other way around? In theory it's the will of
    >the people ... in practice it's whatever the powerful can spin enough
    >people into swallowing ...


    yes. I was not consistent it describing the they were taught or the
    way they are.
    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
     
    Roedy Green, Dec 6, 2005
    #12
  13. Boki

    Guest

    NO, this PM never give me extra bonus, what I ever get is - US$25
    dinner(s) .. = = ...

    That's a very important reason I don't like to work hard for him.

    I work hard about 9 months before, almost no holiday/weekend, what I
    get ? few times of free US$25 dinner

    ( This PM is different to our president, my president will give us
    extra bonus when he is requiring extra work)


    I remember CMMI said:

    PM MUST design their SPEC very carefully, because it can't be changed
    when engineers ( around the world ) start working!

    Now, what I can do is accept his requirement ( this PM is my boss's
    boss )
    But I will really prepare better ability myself, and find a better
    enviroment when this contract was expired.

    Thank you very much.

    Best regards,
    Boki.
     
    , Dec 6, 2005
    #13
  14. Boki

    Tim Ward Guest

    "Roedy Green" <> wrote in
    message news:...
    >
    > 2. the amount of lying at election time about what a party intends to
    > do and what they do.


    Some of us do try quite hard not to, actually.

    If someone puts an untrue statement on one of my election leaflets and I
    don't catch it before it's printed then it *will* get spotted by the punters
    and I *will* lose votes and I *will* lose my seat if it's bad enough or
    frequent enough. The power of the internet - an error on an election leaflet
    is usually being discussed on the local newsgroup long before we've finished
    delivering it.

    On one occasion I insisted that an entire print run of leaflets be scrapped
    rather than delivered, and on another I required a correction to a mistake
    to be printed in the next leaflet. My opponents, on the other hand, don't
    always appear to be quite so careful. Possibly that's why I get elected and
    they don't :).

    --
    Tim Ward
    Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
     
    Tim Ward, Dec 6, 2005
    #14
  15. Boki

    . Guest

    On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 wrote:

    > NO, this PM never give me extra bonus, what I ever get is - US$25
    > dinner(s) .. = = ...
    >
    > That's a very important reason I don't like to work hard for him.
    >
    > I work hard about 9 months before, almost no holiday/weekend, what I
    > get ? few times of free US$25 dinner


    Welcome to the real world. I would imagine everyone has or will work for
    someone like this. A PM is always being squeezed from both sides. The
    people above him don't want to give him more time/resources or less scope.
    The people under him want more time/resources or less scope. A good PM
    will find the right balance.

    Last company I worked at hired a PM who honestly believed that whatever
    estimate development gave him for time he should cut in half. If we told
    him it would take 6 months he'd set the schedule for 3 months. The reality
    was that development would take 6 months, plus testing, plus
    documentation, plus installation, etc.

    At least your PM buys you dinner occasionally. I was told if I'm not
    working ATLEAST 60 hour weeks (for 37.5 hours pay) then I'm not working
    hard and if I'm not working hard I'm on a list of people who might get
    laid off. I quit and work for someone much more reasonable now.

    If they don't appreciate you, find someone who does. Just be careful that
    you are not jumping out the frying pan and into the fire.

    > ( This PM is different to our president, my president will give us
    > extra bonus when he is requiring extra work)
    >
    >
    > I remember CMMI said:
    >
    > PM MUST design their SPEC very carefully, because it can't be changed
    > when engineers ( around the world ) start working!


    I find it hard to believe anything that talks in absolutes. If CMMI
    indicates "MUST" and "CAN'T" then it will not work. There must be some
    level of flexibility in whatever you do.

    If the customer is willing to pay for it then specifications can change.
    The difference between a good PM and a bad PM, in my humble opinion, is a
    good PM will have someone above them pay for the change. A bad PM will
    have someone under them pay for the change.

    --
    Send e-mail to: darrell dot grainger at utoronto dot ca
     
    ., Dec 6, 2005
    #15
  16. Boki

    Boki Guest

    "Hello World!" Here is a smile for every body ":D"

    [A PM is always being squeezed from both sides. The people above him don't
    want to give him more time/resources or less scope. The people under him
    want more time/resources or less scope. A good PM will find the right
    balance. ]

    [The difference between a good PM and a bad PM, in my humble opinion, is a
    good PM will have someone above them pay for the change. A bad PM will have
    someone under them pay for the change. ]

    Good comments.


    [I quit and work for someone much more reasonable now.]

    Good choice.

    [ Just be careful that you are not jumping out the frying pan and into the
    fire.]

    Thanks. : )


    I only want to explain, the CMMI didn't use that kind of word(s), that is my
    personal description after study.


    btw, I believe I can analysis our PM is good or bad now ... :D

    Best regards,
    Boki.


    ""."" <>
    ???????:p...
    > On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 wrote:
    >
    >> NO, this PM never give me extra bonus, what I ever get is - US$25
    >> dinner(s) .. = = ...
    >>
    >> That's a very important reason I don't like to work hard for him.
    >>
    >> I work hard about 9 months before, almost no holiday/weekend, what I
    >> get ? few times of free US$25 dinner

    >
    > Welcome to the real world. I would imagine everyone has or will work for
    > someone like this. A PM is always being squeezed from both sides. The
    > people above him don't want to give him more time/resources or less scope.
    > The people under him want more time/resources or less scope. A good PM
    > will find the right balance.
    >
    > Last company I worked at hired a PM who honestly believed that whatever
    > estimate development gave him for time he should cut in half. If we told
    > him it would take 6 months he'd set the schedule for 3 months. The reality
    > was that development would take 6 months, plus testing, plus
    > documentation, plus installation, etc.
    >
    > At least your PM buys you dinner occasionally. I was told if I'm not
    > working ATLEAST 60 hour weeks (for 37.5 hours pay) then I'm not working
    > hard and if I'm not working hard I'm on a list of people who might get
    > laid off. I quit and work for someone much more reasonable now.
    >
    > If they don't appreciate you, find someone who does. Just be careful that
    > you are not jumping out the frying pan and into the fire.
    >
    >> ( This PM is different to our president, my president will give us
    >> extra bonus when he is requiring extra work)
    >>
    >>
    >> I remember CMMI said:
    >>
    >> PM MUST design their SPEC very carefully, because it can't be changed
    >> when engineers ( around the world ) start working!

    >
    > I find it hard to believe anything that talks in absolutes. If CMMI
    > indicates "MUST" and "CAN'T" then it will not work. There must be some
    > level of flexibility in whatever you do.
    >
    > If the customer is willing to pay for it then specifications can change.
    > The difference between a good PM and a bad PM, in my humble opinion, is a
    > good PM will have someone above them pay for the change. A bad PM will
    > have someone under them pay for the change.
    >
    > --
    > Send e-mail to: darrell dot grainger at utoronto dot ca
    >
     
    Boki, Dec 7, 2005
    #16
  17. Boki

    Guest

    Check out this book :

    'The Career Programmer : Guerilla Tactics for an Imperfect World'
    by Christopher Duncan
     
    , Dec 7, 2005
    #17
  18. Boki

    Guest

    Thank you very much, this will be one of my studying this week. : )

    Best regards,
    Boki.
     
    , Dec 7, 2005
    #18
  19. Boki

    Viator Guest

    To get rid of all kind of PMs start freelancing.

    Amit :)
     
    Viator, Dec 7, 2005
    #19
  20. Boki

    Guest

    In fact, that's one of my plan :)

    Any suggestion? :) ( not limit to coding/programmer )

    Best regards,
    Boki.
     
    , Dec 7, 2005
    #20
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