How's ruby compare to it older brother python

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Hunn E. Balsiche, Apr 26, 2004.

  1. in term of its OO features, syntax consistencies, ease of use, and their
    development progress. I have not use python but heard about it quite often;
    and ruby, is it mature enough to be use for developing serious application,
    e.g web application as it has not many features in it yet.

    I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest language
    to learn. How about PHP?

    Thanks
    Hunn E. Balsiche, Apr 26, 2004
    #1
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  2. Hunn E. Balsiche wrote:
    > in term of its OO features, syntax consistencies, ease of use, and their
    > development progress. I have not use python but heard about it quite often;
    > and ruby, is it mature enough to be use for developing serious application,
    > e.g web application as it has not many features in it yet.
    >
    > I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest language
    > to learn. How about PHP?


    There was a good discussion of ruby, PHP, and web apps recently:

    http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/vframe.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/97866?97745-98337
    Joel VanderWerf, Apr 26, 2004
    #2
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  3. Hunn E. Balsiche

    Peter Maas Guest

    Hunn E. Balsiche wrote:
    > I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest language
    > to learn. How about PHP?


    http://www.python.org/doc/Comparisons.html

    Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

    Peter Maas

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    Peter Maas, M+R Infosysteme, D-52070 Aachen, Hubert-Wienen-Str. 24
    Tel +49-241-93878-0 Fax +49-241-93878-20 eMail
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    Peter Maas, Apr 26, 2004
    #3
  4. Hunn E. Balsiche

    Peter Maas Guest

    Hunn E. Balsiche wrote:
    > I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest language
    > to learn. How about PHP?


    I forgot http://dada.perl.it/shootout, which is great for performance
    comparisons. Source code of the tests can be viewed easily to get a
    feeling for the strengths and weaknesses of the syntax as well.

    Mit freundlichen Gruessen,

    Peter Maas

    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Peter Maas, M+R Infosysteme, D-52070 Aachen, Hubert-Wienen-Str. 24
    Tel +49-241-93878-0 Fax +49-241-93878-20 eMail
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    Peter Maas, Apr 26, 2004
    #4
  5. Hunn E. Balsiche wrote:

    > in term of its OO features, syntax consistencies, ease of use, and
    > their development progress. I have not use python but heard about it
    > quite often; and ruby, is it mature enough to be use for developing
    > serious application, e.g web application as it has not many features
    > in it yet.
    >
    > I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest
    > language to learn. How about PHP?


    It really depends on what you'll want to do. PHP is a great language for
    getting dynamic HTML pages up and running quickly. Perl is great for
    its string-handling abilities. (On my Web pages, I actually call a Perl
    script from PHP precisely for this reason.)

    However, both PHP and Perl can be very unwieldy for large projects. I'm
    a newcomer to Python, but it seems to scale much better than the other
    P-languages.

    For a first tour of Python, I'll suggest that you read the excellent
    tutorial by the language's author, Guido van Rossum:

    http://www.python.org/doc/current/tut/

    regards,
    --
    Leif Biberg Kristensen
    http://solumslekt.org/
    Validare necesse est
    Leif B. Kristensen, Apr 26, 2004
    #5
  6. il Mon, 26 Apr 2004 03:08:13 -0400, "Hunn E. Balsiche"
    <> ha scritto::

    >in term of its OO features, syntax consistencies, ease of use, and their
    >development progress.


    some people here will tell you that they prefer ruby. Some on c.l.py
    will prefer python.

    As of python 2.3 and ruby 1.8.1 both languages are consistent, easy to
    use and very powerful. Try both and make your choice.

    >I have not use python but heard about it quite often;
    >and ruby, is it mature enough to be use for developing serious application,


    sure it is, see http://www.rubygarden.org/ruby?RealWorldRuby
    >e.g web application as it has not many features in it yet.


    sure , see http://www.rubyonrails.org/show/HomePage
    or http://www.navel.gr/
    or http://rubycrafters.com/
    or http://www.brain-tokyo.jp/research/amrita/
    or http://www.spice-of-life.net/download/cgikit/index_en.html
    or http://modruby.net/

    And this are just the first I can thin of :)


    >I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest language
    >to learn. How about PHP?


    I don't like php4 as it lacks lot of useful things.
    I don't kinow much of php5 but I don't like much what I see.
    If you do, use it :)
    gabriele renzi, Apr 26, 2004
    #6
  7. Hello Peter,

    Monday, April 26, 2004, 10:19:03 AM, you wrote:

    PM> Hunn E. Balsiche wrote:
    >> I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest language
    >> to learn. How about PHP?


    PM> http://www.python.org/doc/Comparisons.html

    And as usual the comparison with ruby is a broken link.

    This is something that really really gives ruby a bad reputation. I've
    never seen so many instable servers in other communities. Sometimes
    rubyforge is down, RAA had recently a long non reachable period, most of the
    RAA links are garbage, the mod_ruby server is down when you need it
    etc, etc.

    It is just the same situation as with most libraries and extensions.

    I never had problems like this when searching for python or php
    information.


    --
    Best regards,
    Lothar mailto:
    Lothar Scholz, Apr 26, 2004
    #7
  8. On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 18:27:00 +0900
    Lothar Scholz <> wrote:
    > This is something that really really gives ruby a bad reputation. I've
    > never seen so many instable servers in other communities. Sometimes
    > rubyforge is down, RAA had recently a long non reachable period, most of the
    > RAA links are garbage, the mod_ruby server is down when you need it
    > etc, etc.


    BTW: The RAA has been upgraded, so it now can handle upto 5 dependencies, and
    it keeps remembering earlier releases. Thats some ok improvements.

    BTW2: It would be nice with some filtering where one could hide inactive packages.

    --
    Simon Strandgaard
    Simon Strandgaard, Apr 26, 2004
    #8
  9. Hunn E. Balsiche

    Chad Fowler Guest

    On 26/4/2004, at 5:27 AM, Lothar Scholz wrote:

    > Hello Peter,
    >
    > Monday, April 26, 2004, 10:19:03 AM, you wrote:
    >
    > PM> Hunn E. Balsiche wrote:
    >>> I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest
    >>> language
    >>> to learn. How about PHP?

    >
    > PM> http://www.python.org/doc/Comparisons.html
    >
    > And as usual the comparison with ruby is a broken link.
    >


    Unfortunately, I've had a problem with a recent server move and haven't
    been able to resurrect the IOWA-based FAQ yet. Still working on it in
    between my paying job and being ill all weekend. I'm sorry to have let
    you and the Ruby community down, Lothar.

    > This is something that really really gives ruby a bad reputation. I've
    > never seen so many instable servers in other communities. Sometimes
    > rubyforge is down, RAA had recently a long non reachable period, most
    > of the
    > RAA links are garbage, the mod_ruby server is down when you need it
    > etc, etc.
    >


    Your charming attitude really motivates all of the volunteers who run
    these sites to get right to work on improving them.

    > It is just the same situation as with most libraries and extensions.
    >
    > I never had problems like this when searching for python or php
    > information.
    >


    There's an obvious answer, but I'll leave it to you to figure out.

    Chad
    Chad Fowler, Apr 26, 2004
    #9
  10. Hunn E. Balsiche

    James Britt Guest

  11. Hunn E. Balsiche wrote:
    > in term of its OO features, syntax consistencies, ease of use, and their
    > development progress. I have not use python but heard about it quite often;
    > and ruby, is it mature enough to be use for developing serious application,
    > e.g web application as it has not many features in it yet.


    Syntax : both Ruby and Python are pretty clean, Ruby being IMHO more
    consistent and Python easier to grasp

    OO : Ruby is OO all the way, and pretty close to Smalltalk. Python is
    more a mix of procedural and OO with some functional stuff too.

    Web : Python may have a bit more existing solutions, and a real killer
    app (Zope). Now, AFAIK, Ruby has also some interesting stuff for web
    developpement.

    IMHO, both are really great languages. I really like the elegance of
    Ruby and the ease of use of Python. So try both and pick the one that
    fits you're brain !-)

    > I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest language
    > to learn.


    No comment...

    > How about PHP?

    <troll>
    One of the dumbest 'scripting' language I've ever worked with, but still
    a good solution for web developpement when you have no better (read :
    Python or Ruby) choice.
    </troll>

    Bruno
    Bruno Desthuilliers, Apr 26, 2004
    #11
  12. Hunn E. Balsiche

    Phil Tomson Guest

    In article <>,
    John Roth <> wrote:
    >
    >"Hunn E. Balsiche" <> wrote in message
    >news:c6ich0$c5mee$-berlin.de...
    >> in term of its OO features, syntax consistencies, ease of use, and their
    >> development progress. I have not use python but heard about it quite

    >often;
    >> and ruby, is it mature enough to be use for developing serious

    >application,
    >> e.g web application as it has not many features in it yet.

    >
    >As another poster has mentioned, Ruby is more closely related
    >to Perl than to Python. While I don't use it, people I respect who
    >have moved to Ruby say it has a couple of real killer features;
    >in particular the way blocks and the pervasive use of the visitor
    >pattern come together change the way one writes programs for
    >the better.
    >
    >As far as syntax is concerned, there doesn't seem to be a
    >huge amount of difference. Syntax is syntax, and every language
    >has it's little pecularities.


    Well, there is one big difference syntactically: Python uses indentation
    as syntax and Ruby doesn't. Personally I don't prefer Python's
    'indentation-as-syntax' since it means that syntactically significant
    pieces of my code are invisible and if the tab settings in my editor are
    not the same as yours it can make it difficult to share code (or even
    worse, it might look like everything is OK when we share code, but the
    code which looks exactly the same to each of us, might not be depending
    on how tabs are or are not expanded). It would also seem to be a pain for
    cutting & pasting code as well.
    However, some people really like Python's indentation-as-syntax, so YMMV.

    Your best bet is to actually use each language for a small project
    so that you spend about a day with each language. You'll find that while
    on the surface both languages seem quite similar, at a deeper level they
    each have a very different effect on how you think about and approach the
    problem. Some people find that Ruby best fits with their brain and others find
    Python a better fit. You won't know until you try.

    Phil
    Phil Tomson, Apr 26, 2004
    #12
  13. In article <>,
    Phil Tomson <> wrote:
    Cameron Laird, Apr 26, 2004
    #13
  14. Cameron Laird wrote:
    > .
    > It's not just that "You won't know until you try" ("is it better
    > to have children, or join the monastery?"); it's that you won't
    > know until you try, *and it's inexpensive to try*! It's eminently
    > feasible to gain experience in either language with a few hours (!)
    > of work, as opposed to the weeks that must precede enlightenment
    > about, say, J2EE servers.


    Of course, those of us who are more into the Complete Waste Of Time [TM]
    theory of selecting software components will simply give you the bottom
    line:

    - If you like Perl, you'll like Ruby. If you think Perl is a bletcherous
    hack, you'll like Python.
    - The Python community dwarfs the Ruby community.
    - Both languages are slow.
    - Python has lotsa libraries but not everything. Ask here regarding your
    specific needs. Even if Python were the most elegant language in the world,
    that's not useful if you must write everything from scratch and don't have
    time to do it.

    This is the kind of information you get by simply asking people and reading
    lotsa archives. Some people say "Try it yourself!" is the only way to
    learn. They are wrong, and they often don't value people's time. You
    really can rely on other people's reported experiences of the nuclear
    mushroom cloud exploding over the horizon. It is not strictly necessary to
    walk into Ground Zero yourself.

    Now, if you're going to argue "it's just a little Ruby code..." why don't
    you try multiplying that by all the languages in the comp.lang.* hierarchy
    that you could potentially be selecting from? Take a spin by the Language
    Shootouts if you want to spin your head some more.
    http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/
    http://dada.perl.it/shootout/
    You need a filter of some kind for cutting down the options. I suggest
    asking people, and seeing what languages actually got used for jobs relevant
    to your software problem / industry.

    I'm waiting for someone to say that my participation in this thread
    constitutes trolling. I find it amusing that the boundary between
    "intelligent language discussion" and "trolling" is mainly a matter of who
    likes who, not the content. And, this is all I have to say on the subject,
    so have fun.

    --
    Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    "Troll" - (n.) Anything you don't like.
    Usage: "He's just a troll."
    Brandon J. Van Every, Apr 26, 2004
    #14
  15. RubyForge is down sometimes (though rarely), but its a far better
    repository (resource-wise) than SourceForge for Ruby projects. We have
    tried to make sure the resource(s) we provide this community (for free)
    meet the community's need for a repository of projects that are
    Ruby-centric, and that we (Tom mostly) are responsive to our user's
    needs. If you have something specific to discuss with us regarding
    RubyForge's usability, please let us know here:

    http://rubyforge.org/tracker/?group_id=5

    Thanks,

    -rich

    On Apr 26, 2004, at 5:27 AM, Lothar Scholz wrote:

    > rubyforge is down
    Richard Kilmer, Apr 26, 2004
    #15
  16. Hunn E. Balsiche wrote:

    > [Ruby, Python]
    > I've given up on Perl for its ugly syntax and it is not the easiest language
    > to learn. How about PHP?


    All these suck. You guys should grow up and start programming in *real*
    programming languages like Befunge.

    Oh, and you forgot to cross post to all the other 54 comp.lang groups.

    And now: Can we please never have threads like this one ever again?
    We're getting them on a twice-per-month base right now which makes these
    topics get old and very uninteresting quickly.

    PS: Don't take this too personal, but all this wouldn't have happened if
    you had searched in other resources before posting here.

    Regards,
    Florian Gross
    Florian Gross, Apr 26, 2004
    #16
  17. Hunn E. Balsiche

    Phil Tomson Guest

    In article <c6jmhh$cr0r2$-berlin.de>,
    Brandon J. Van Every <> wrote:
    >Cameron Laird wrote:
    >> .
    >> It's not just that "You won't know until you try" ("is it better
    >> to have children, or join the monastery?"); it's that you won't
    >> know until you try, *and it's inexpensive to try*! It's eminently
    >> feasible to gain experience in either language with a few hours (!)
    >> of work, as opposed to the weeks that must precede enlightenment
    >> about, say, J2EE servers.

    >
    >Of course, those of us who are more into the Complete Waste Of Time [TM]
    >theory of selecting software components will simply give you the bottom
    >line:
    >
    >- If you like Perl, you'll like Ruby. If you think Perl is a bletcherous
    >hack, you'll like Python.
    >- The Python community dwarfs the Ruby community.
    >- Both languages are slow.
    >- Python has lotsa libraries but not everything. Ask here regarding your
    >specific needs. Even if Python were the most elegant language in the world,
    >that's not useful if you must write everything from scratch and don't have
    >time to do it.
    >
    >This is the kind of information you get by simply asking people and reading
    >lotsa archives. Some people say "Try it yourself!" is the only way to
    >learn. They are wrong, and they often don't value people's time. You
    >really can rely on other people's reported experiences of the nuclear
    >mushroom cloud exploding over the horizon. It is not strictly necessary to
    >walk into Ground Zero yourself.
    >
    >Now, if you're going to argue "it's just a little Ruby code..." why don't
    >you try multiplying that by all the languages in the comp.lang.* hierarchy
    >that you could potentially be selecting from? Take a spin by the Language
    >Shootouts if you want to spin your head some more.
    >http://www.bagley.org/~doug/shootout/
    >http://dada.perl.it/shootout/
    >You need a filter of some kind for cutting down the options. I suggest
    >asking people, and seeing what languages actually got used for jobs relevant
    >to your software problem / industry.
    >


    It seems as though he has already done this. He was interested in Ruby
    and Python (N=2). From there a couple of people (including myself)
    suggested that he make the determination about which to study indepth by
    actually doing a bit of coding in both languages. Spending a day or two
    on this exercise doesn't seem excessive if you're serious about selecting
    your 'next language' to learn in depth.

    Phil
    Phil Tomson, Apr 26, 2004
    #17
  18. Hunn E. Balsiche

    Steve Lamb Guest

    On 2004-04-26, Phil Tomson <> wrote:
    > Well, there is one big difference syntactically: Python uses indentation
    > as syntax and Ruby doesn't. Personally I don't prefer Python's
    > 'indentation-as-syntax' since it means that syntactically significant
    > pieces of my code are invisible and if the tab settings in my editor are
    > not the same as yours it can make it difficult to share code (or even


    Why is this trotted out every time? I guarentee that my code will look
    perfectly fine in your editor. I cannot guarentee the reverse as while you
    might have a penchant for tabs I do not. I am not alone in that regard.
    Here's a snippet from the Python style guide:

    Tabs or Spaces?
    Never mix tabs and spaces. The most popular way of indenting Python is with
    spaces only. The second-most popular way is with tabs only. Code indented with
    a mixture of tabs and spaces should be converted to using spaces exclusively.
    (In Emacs, select the whole buffer and hit ESC-x untabify.) When invoking the
    python command line interpreter with the -t option, it issues warnings about
    code that illegally mixes tabs and spaces. When using -tt these warnings
    become errors. These options are highly recommended!

    So unless your tab setting is 0 syntactically significant pieces of code
    should always have a different indention level. Furthermore if the
    program(mers) follow the style guide then that is a non-issue.

    --
    Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
    PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
    -------------------------------+---------------------------------------------
    Steve Lamb, Apr 26, 2004
    #18
  19. Re: Is Perl *that* good? (was: How's ruby compare to it older brother python)

    Would this super perl program of yours can convert the massive amount of
    perl script to ruby or python?

    If it could, it would be great so ruby/python programmers does not have to
    learn those cryptic perl-ish syntax and the non-OOish scripting language.
    Ruby Tuesdays, Apr 26, 2004
    #19
  20. Phil Tomson wrote:
    > In article <c6jmhh$cr0r2$-berlin.de>,
    > Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
    >>
    >> You need a filter of some kind for cutting down the options. I
    >> suggest asking people, and seeing what languages actually got used
    >> for jobs relevant to your software problem / industry.

    >
    > It seems as though he has already done this.


    He may very well have... I'm late to the thread. Consider it embedded
    advice for anyone *other* than him who may be reading, now or in the future.

    --
    Cheers, www.indiegamedesign.com
    Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA

    "Trollhunter" - (n.) A person who habitually accuses
    people of being Trolls.
    Brandon J. Van Every, Apr 26, 2004
    #20
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