HTML 4.01 Strict & the Target attribute

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Simon, Oct 29, 2004.

  1. Simon

    Simon Guest

    Hi there.

    Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
    Target attribute or Javascript?

    It's probably obvious, but I havn't located any references to it!

    TIA

    Simon
     
    Simon, Oct 29, 2004
    #1
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  2. Simon

    Steve Pugh Guest

    On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:05:13 GMT, Simon <>
    wrote:

    > Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
    > Target attribute or Javascript?


    As an author you can't.
    Either use JS (making sure that the link still works when JS is disabled)
    or use a Transitional doctype and the target attribute. In both cases make
    sure that you indicate to the user that the link will open a new window.

    As a user your browser probably offers you at least one way of opening a
    link in a new window. These are always available to you and give you the
    option of opening links in a new window or tab if you choose. If the
    author has inconsiderately decided to force a new window on you then it's
    a lot more difficult to choose to open the link in your existing window.

    Steve
     
    Steve Pugh, Oct 29, 2004
    #2
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  3. Simon

    rf Guest

    Simon wrote

    > Hi there.


    Er, G'day.

    > Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
    > Target attribute or Javascript?


    You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
    want new windows opened at us.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Oct 29, 2004
    #3
  4. "Simon" <> writes:

    > Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
    > Target attribute or Javascript?


    File > Open in New Window

    > It's probably obvious,


    That's bloody right. :)


    --
    | ) Più Cabernet,
    -( meno Internet.
    | ) http://bednarz.nl/
     
    Eric B. Bednarz, Oct 29, 2004
    #4
  5. Simon

    Simon Guest

    "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in > Simon wrote

    > You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
    > want new windows opened at us.


    I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be opened
    without permission. This was going to be on an image link next to the main
    link to give the user the option.

    I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open in
    new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
    these things.

    anyway, becoming a bit of pragmatist in my old age, so I shall leave the
    target attribute on the link, seeing as how it does work.

    Cheers anyway

    Si
     
    Simon, Oct 29, 2004
    #5
  6. Simon

    rf Guest

    Simon wrote
    > "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in > Simon wrote
    >
    > > You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
    > > want new windows opened at us.

    >
    > I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be

    opened
    > without permission. This was going to be on an image link next to the main
    > link to give the user the option.


    The option to what? I assume the option to open a new window as against the
    main link which opens it in the main page?

    Yes you really should have mentioned that up front. You might have recieved
    a totally different answer.

    > I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open

    in
    > new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
    > these things.
    >
    > anyway, becoming a bit of pragmatist in my old age, so I shall leave the
    > target attribute on the link, seeing as how it does work.


    Whatever. It's your web site.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Oct 29, 2004
    #6
  7. Simon wrote;
    > "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in > Simon wrote
    >
    > > You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
    > > want new windows opened at us.

    >
    > I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be opened
    > without permission.


    Then why to do that?

    > This was going to be on an image link next to the main
    > link to give the user the option.


    God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
    in new window.

    > I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open in
    > new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
    > these things.


    Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.

    New windows are good for people that:
    1) get the idea of multible windows
    2) don't get that one can open them

    It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
    them to understand what it is good for.


    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 29, 2004
    #7
  8. Simon

    Simon Guest

    Lauri Raittila" <> wrote

    > > > You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We

    don't
    > > > want new windows opened at us.

    > >
    > > I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be

    opened
    > > without permission.

    >
    > Then why to do that?


    Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
    windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
    in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.

    I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
    requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.

    Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.


    > > This was going to be on an image link next to the main
    > > link to give the user the option.

    >
    > God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
    > in new window.


    Just a standard website with outbound links of relevance

    > > I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open

    in
    > > new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know

    of
    > > these things.

    >
    > Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.
    >
    > New windows are good for people that:
    > 1) get the idea of multible windows
    > 2) don't get that one can open them
    >
    > It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
    > them to understand what it is good for.


    I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(

    Si
     
    Simon, Oct 29, 2004
    #8
  9. Simon wrote;
    > Lauri Raittila" <> wrote
    >
    > Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
    > windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
    > in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.
    >
    > I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
    > requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.


    Maybe

    > Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.


    People pay even more money for experts that get good results. Those are
    people that don't hesitate to say customer that he is wrong.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't always work thatway.

    > I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(


    Make a version with both, to show that you can easily do both, and then
    tell to customer that he is wrong... Does sometimes work...

    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 29, 2004
    #9
  10. Simon

    Neal Guest

    On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:12:00 GMT, Simon <>
    wrote:

    > I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
    > requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.


    Yes you can: in fact, you MUST.

    > Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.


    So if you were a lawyer, and a client brings you a case that you can't
    easily win, and you need information to win that the client won't give
    you, you're telling me you'll go in and bomb in the courtroom, damaging
    your name as an attorney, instead of dropping the client who won't take
    your professional advise?

    If you were an electrician, and the client wants you to do something which
    is expressly forbidden by the safety code, you'd do it anyway, risking
    your license and perhaps the client's building?

    It's your responsibility to the client to stress your professional
    opinion. And it's your responsibility to ethical and consciencious web
    authors around the world to threaten to pull out unless realistic and
    appropriate standards are agreed to for the project.

    > Lauri Raittila" <> wrote
    >> New windows are good for people that:
    >> 1) get the idea of multible windows
    >> 2) don't get that one can open them
    >>
    >> It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
    >> them to understand what it is good for.

    >
    > I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(


    Then if you are a professional, you must convince them. The statement
    above is a complete copout. Walk the talk, or stop talking.

    If you're not a professional, and are instead a toady looking for a fast
    buck wherever you can get it, and are willing to compromise best practice
    just because some bigwig who knows nothing about what you do likes
    something stupid, then your panties won't get in a bunch. I suspect that's
    not you, though.

    Remember the old story of the company president who had a machine break
    down. No one in the company could fix it, so he hires a repairman. The
    repairman looks at the machine for a minute, takes out a screwdriver,
    turns one screw, and the machine finally works.

    He hands his bill to the president - $100.

    "$100! You expect me to pay you $100 for tightening one screw?"

    "No, I expect $1 for tightening the screw. I expect the other $99 for
    knowing which screw to turn."

    This client is hiring you for your knowledge and abilities. If he's
    expecting something that is poor practice, you either convince him it is
    wrong or you drop him like a hot potato. And until most web designers do
    this, the web design profession will be as underpaid and disrespected as
    it is now.
     
    Neal, Oct 29, 2004
    #10
  11. Simon

    DU Guest

    Simon wrote:
    > Lauri Raittila" <> wrote
    >
    >
    >>>>You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We

    >
    > don't
    >
    >>>>want new windows opened at us.
    >>>
    >>>I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be

    >
    > opened
    >
    >>>without permission.

    >>
    >>Then why to do that?

    >
    >
    > Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
    > windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
    > in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.
    >


    Again, you should have mentioned this from the start. If you code your
    links correctly (according to J. Nielsen and WAI), then both the power
    users and newbies will be able to understand how to deal with the links.

    > I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
    > requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.
    >


    Well, I disagree with this sort of argument. Pure force or economical
    constraints are not the basis of a good sound web design project. Your
    argument is justifying poor design, weak usability, etc..

    > Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.
    >


    A great deal of your website design work is to explain, to document and
    to justify your design decisions to your customers. In the last
    analysis, if you care about usability, accessibility and best suitable
    website design, your web design decisions will be the most beneficial to
    the users/visitors and to the website owners. No one likes poorly
    designed website based on multiple secondary windows.
    The bottom line is very adamant: give what the end users want: clear
    navigation, no cluttered design, flexibility, customization, accessibility.

    >
    >>>This was going to be on an image link next to the main
    >>>link to give the user the option.

    >>
    >>God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
    >>in new window.

    >
    >
    > Just a standard website with outbound links of relevance
    >
    >
    >>>I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open

    >
    > in
    >
    >>>new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know

    >
    > of
    >
    >>>these things.

    >>
    >>Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.
    >>


    If the design is well done, the avg. browser user will not get confused
    when you open one single secondary window and when such window is
    recycled, reused for an image gallery. The wisdom is to code flexibility
    and accessibility for the enduser and power user: it's definitively doable.

    >>New windows are good for people that:
    >>1) get the idea of multible windows
    >>2) don't get that one can open them
    >>
    >>It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
    >>them to understand what it is good for.

    >
    >
    > I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(
    >
    > Si
    >
    >


    You're finding a rather weak alibi here as a challenge which can only
    benefit your income and your resume.

    DU
    --
    The site said to use Internet Explorer 5 or better... so I switched to
    Mozilla 1.7.3 :)
     
    DU, Oct 29, 2004
    #11
  12. In article <Zlqgd.7567$>, Simon
    () dropped a +5 bundle of words...

    > Hi there.
    >
    > Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
    > Target attribute or Javascript?


    I don't think you can.

    >
    > It's probably obvious, but I havn't located any references to it!
    >
    > TIA
    >
    > Simon
    >
    >
    >


    --
    Starshine Moonbeam
    mhm31x9 Smeeter#29 WSD#30
    sTaRShInE_mOOnBeAm aT HoTmAil dOt CoM
     
    Starshine Moonbeam, Oct 29, 2004
    #12
  13. Simon

    jake Guest

    In message <Qcsgd.7771$>, Simon
    <> writes
    >Lauri Raittila" <> wrote
    >
    >> > > You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We

    >don't
    >> > > want new windows opened at us.
    >> >
    >> > I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be

    >opened
    >> > without permission.

    >>
    >> Then why to do that?

    >
    >Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
    >windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
    >in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.
    >
    >I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
    >requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.
    >
    >Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.
    >
    >
    >> > This was going to be on an image link next to the main
    >> > link to give the user the option.

    >>
    >> God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
    >> in new window.

    >
    >Just a standard website with outbound links of relevance
    >
    >> > I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open

    >in
    >> > new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know

    >of
    >> > these things.

    >>
    >> Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.
    >>
    >> New windows are good for people that:
    >> 1) get the idea of multible windows
    >> 2) don't get that one can open them
    >>
    >> It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
    >> them to understand what it is good for.

    >
    >I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(
    >
    >Si
    >
    >

    I wouldn't worry about it too much.

    I'd be surprised if anybody really has problems with a page opening in a
    new window, although there should be a warning for users of assistive
    technology (AT) readers in case they miss whatever queue their system
    puts out.

    I'd avoid opening more than one window at a time, though.


    regards.

    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Oct 30, 2004
    #13
  14. in alt.html, jake wrote:

    > I wouldn't worry about it too much.
    >
    > I'd be surprised if anybody really has problems with a page opening in a
    > new window,


    I have constantly. I use net about 8 hours a day, and have been doing so
    for 3 years. Of course, I know almost immidiately what is problem (why my
    back command don't work, for example)

    I know I should install local proxy to get rid of extra stuff, but I
    haven't bothered to make my thing even more complex. (using one local
    tunneling proxy and 2 nonlocal proxies already)

    I wonder, if there is anybody everywhere, that does have problem with
    something not opening new window.


    --
    Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
     
    Lauri Raittila, Oct 30, 2004
    #14
  15. Simon

    Neal Guest

    On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 17:00:37 +0300, Lauri Raittila
    <> wrote:

    > in alt.html, jake wrote:
    >
    >> I wouldn't worry about it too much.
    >>
    >> I'd be surprised if anybody really has problems with a page opening in a
    >> new window,

    >
    > I have constantly. I use net about 8 hours a day, and have been doing so
    > for 3 years. Of course, I know almost immidiately what is problem (why my
    > back command don't work, for example)


    I have a similar yet different issue. I set up Opera to open popups in the
    background. Sometimes i click what looks like a link, and "nothing"
    happens. I try 3 times, until I see that it was a popup, how sweet.

    In every case I've seen there was no good reason to open a new window.
     
    Neal, Oct 30, 2004
    #15
  16. Simon

    Karl Core Guest

    "jake" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > I'd be surprised if anybody really has problems with a page opening in a
    > new window


    In a usability test we did in May, a site opened new windows with the target
    attribute and EVERY SINGLE PARTICIPANT exhibited confusion & frustration
    with the site. Most users didn't even notice the new window, so when they
    wanted to go back to where they were, they tried using the back button which
    of course did not work anymore.

    Now, let me offer a qualifier here - the biggest issue wasn't JUST the fact
    that the new window existed. The biggest issue was the fact that the window
    was full size, therefore covering the old window completely. This is what
    caused the users' confusion. Worse still, about half the participants
    totally closed all browser windows and completely started over. It was kind
    of funny, because I remember getting into all sorts of arguments at my last
    job because they insisted on opening new windows "so the visitor doesn't
    lose our site" when in actuality, the new windows appear to actually cause
    people to lose the site rather than keep them.

    It boils down to this: Had they known the new window was there, they would
    have been able to deal with it better.

    So, the interim solution one might entertain might be to always ensure that
    these new windows are noticeably smaller than full screen - say, 700 x 500.
    Now, that doesn't negate the fact that people just don't like new windows.
    But at least this keeps people from getting lost altogether.

    -Karl
     
    Karl Core, Oct 30, 2004
    #16
  17. Simon

    jake Guest

    In message <cm0cir$bl8$>, Karl Core
    <> writes
    >
    >"jake" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >
    >> I'd be surprised if anybody really has problems with a page opening in a
    >> new window

    >
    >In a usability test we did in May, a site opened new windows with the target
    >attribute and EVERY SINGLE PARTICIPANT exhibited confusion & frustration
    >with the site. Most users didn't even notice the new window, so when they
    >wanted to go back to where they were, they tried using the back button which
    >of course did not work anymore.


    And which is why I suggested "..although there should be a warning for
    users of assistive technology (AT) readers in case they miss whatever
    queue their system puts out ..".

    So, this would also seem to apply, then, to other (non-AT) users?

    Tell me a little about the kind of users you were using for that test.
    Where they regular Web users? or just occasional? Red-hot surfers or the
    naturally confused ;-)

    >
    >Now, let me offer a qualifier here - the biggest issue wasn't JUST the fact
    >that the new window existed. The biggest issue was the fact that the window
    >was full size, therefore covering the old window completely. This is what
    >caused the users' confusion. Worse still, about half the participants
    >totally closed all browser windows and completely started over. It was kind
    >of funny, because I remember getting into all sorts of arguments at my last
    >job because they insisted on opening new windows "so the visitor doesn't
    >lose our site" when in actuality, the new windows appear to actually cause
    >people to lose the site rather than keep them.
    >
    >It boils down to this: Had they known the new window was there, they would
    >have been able to deal with it better.


    Agreed.
    >
    >So, the interim solution one might entertain might be to always ensure that
    >these new windows are noticeably smaller than full screen - say, 700 x 500.
    >Now, that doesn't negate the fact that people just don't like new windows.
    >But at least this keeps people from getting lost altogether.


    ..... or 200% big red letters saying "PAGE OPENS IN A NEW WINDOW -- MAKE
    SURE YOU DON'T FORGET, OK?" ;-)

    >
    >-Karl
    >
    >


    --
    Jake
     
    jake, Oct 30, 2004
    #17
  18. Simon

    Karl Core Guest

    "jake" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In message <cm0cir$bl8$>, Karl Core
    > <> writes
    >>
    >>"jake" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>
    >>> I'd be surprised if anybody really has problems with a page opening in a
    >>> new window

    >>
    >>In a usability test we did in May, a site opened new windows with the
    >>target
    >>attribute and EVERY SINGLE PARTICIPANT exhibited confusion & frustration
    >>with the site. Most users didn't even notice the new window, so when they
    >>wanted to go back to where they were, they tried using the back button
    >>which
    >>of course did not work anymore.

    >
    > And which is why I suggested "..although there should be a warning for
    > users of assistive technology (AT) readers in case they miss whatever
    > queue their system puts out ..".
    >
    > So, this would also seem to apply, then, to other (non-AT) users?


    Yes. It definitely applies to ALL users

    >
    > Tell me a little about the kind of users you were using for that test.
    > Where they regular Web users? or just occasional? Red-hot surfers or the
    > naturally confused ;-)


    It was a mix of users. Out of 12 participants, there was one "power user" &
    one "newbie", both of which we try to avoid. All the others were people who
    used the web regularly for work and play.


    >>So, the interim solution one might entertain might be to always ensure
    >>that
    >>these new windows are noticeably smaller than full screen - say, 700 x
    >>500.
    >>Now, that doesn't negate the fact that people just don't like new windows.
    >>But at least this keeps people from getting lost altogether.

    >
    > .... or 200% big red letters saying "PAGE OPENS IN A NEW WINDOW -- MAKE
    > SURE YOU DON'T FORGET, OK?" ;-)


    Even better, make those big letter scroll across the page & spin really
    fast!

    -Karl
     
    Karl Core, Oct 30, 2004
    #18
  19. In article <>,
    says...
    > People pay even more money for experts that get good results. Those are
    > people that don't hesitate to say customer that he is wrong.


    Be careful that you don't get annoying and lose the client though. We
    had a client that wanted a 100% flash site. It did not matter to him
    that people might not see it. "All my clients use flash" he was sure of
    it. We warned, he said no, so we built him a 100% flash site.

    Let the customer know the good and bad about their choices. Then do what
    ever they decide. We are unwilling to "give one up" for the cause.
    --
    -=*Tn*=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Oct 31, 2004
    #19
  20. In article <>,
    says...
    > > I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
    > > requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.

    > Yes you can: in fact, you MUST...
    > ...It's your responsibility to the client to stress your professional
    > opinion. And it's your responsibility to ethical and consciencious web
    > authors around the world to threaten to pull out unless realistic and
    > appropriate standards are agreed to for the project.


    If turning it down means the rent is late, sorry, the cause goes out the
    window.
    --
    -=*Tn*=-
     
    Travis Newbury, Oct 31, 2004
    #20
    1. Advertising

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