HTML 4.01 Strict & the Target attribute

[Simon]

Hi there.

Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
Target attribute or Javascript?

It's probably obvious, but I havn't located any references to it!

TIA

Simon

 

[Steve Pugh]

Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
Target attribute or Javascript?

As an author you can't.
Either use JS (making sure that the link still works when JS is disabled)
or use a Transitional doctype and the target attribute. In both cases make
sure that you indicate to the user that the link will open a new window.

As a user your browser probably offers you at least one way of opening a
link in a new window. These are always available to you and give you the
option of opening links in a new window or tab if you choose. If the
author has inconsiderately decided to force a new window on you then it's
a lot more difficult to choose to open the link in your existing window.

Steve

 

[rf]

Simon wrote

Hi there.

Er, G'day.

Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
Target attribute or Javascript?

You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
want new windows opened at us.

 

[Eric B. Bednarz]

Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
Target attribute or Javascript?

File > Open in New Window

It's probably obvious,

That's bloody right.

 

[Simon]

You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
want new windows opened at us.

I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be opened
without permission. This was going to be on an image link next to the main
link to give the user the option.

I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open in
new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
these things.

anyway, becoming a bit of pragmatist in my old age, so I shall leave the
target attribute on the link, seeing as how it does work.

Cheers anyway

Si

 

[rf]

Simon wrote

I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be opened
without permission. This was going to be on an image link next to the main
link to give the user the option.

The option to what? I assume the option to open a new window as against the
main link which opens it in the main page?

Yes you really should have mentioned that up front. You might have recieved
a totally different answer.

I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open in
new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
these things.

anyway, becoming a bit of pragmatist in my old age, so I shall leave the
target attribute on the link, seeing as how it does work.

Whatever. It's your web site.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Simon wrote;

I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be opened
without permission.

Then why to do that?

This was going to be on an image link next to the main
link to give the user the option.

God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
in new window.

I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open in
new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
these things.

Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.

New windows are good for people that:
1) get the idea of multible windows
2) don't get that one can open them

It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
them to understand what it is good for.

 

[Simon]

Then why to do that?

Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.

I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.

Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.

God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
in new window.

Just a standard website with outbound links of relevance

I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open in
new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
these things.

Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.

New windows are good for people that:
1) get the idea of multible windows
2) don't get that one can open them

It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
them to understand what it is good for.

I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(

Si

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Simon wrote;

Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.

I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.
Maybe

Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.

People pay even more money for experts that get good results. Those are
people that don't hesitate to say customer that he is wrong.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work thatway.

I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(

Make a version with both, to show that you can easily do both, and then
tell to customer that he is wrong... Does sometimes work...

 

[Neal]

I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.

Yes you can: in fact, you MUST.

Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.

So if you were a lawyer, and a client brings you a case that you can't
easily win, and you need information to win that the client won't give
you, you're telling me you'll go in and bomb in the courtroom, damaging
your name as an attorney, instead of dropping the client who won't take
your professional advise?

If you were an electrician, and the client wants you to do something which
is expressly forbidden by the safety code, you'd do it anyway, risking
your license and perhaps the client's building?

It's your responsibility to the client to stress your professional
opinion. And it's your responsibility to ethical and consciencious web
authors around the world to threaten to pull out unless realistic and
appropriate standards are agreed to for the project.

I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(

Then if you are a professional, you must convince them. The statement
above is a complete copout. Walk the talk, or stop talking.

If you're not a professional, and are instead a toady looking for a fast
buck wherever you can get it, and are willing to compromise best practice
just because some bigwig who knows nothing about what you do likes
something stupid, then your panties won't get in a bunch. I suspect that's
not you, though.

Remember the old story of the company president who had a machine break
down. No one in the company could fix it, so he hires a repairman. The
repairman looks at the machine for a minute, takes out a screwdriver,
turns one screw, and the machine finally works.

He hands his bill to the president - $100.

"$100! You expect me to pay you $100 for tightening one screw?"

"No, I expect $1 for tightening the screw. I expect the other $99 for
knowing which screw to turn."

This client is hiring you for your knowledge and abilities. If he's
expecting something that is poor practice, you either convince him it is
wrong or you drop him like a hot potato. And until most web designers do
this, the web design profession will be as underpaid and disrespected as
it is now.

 

[DU]

Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.

Again, you should have mentioned this from the start. If you code your
links correctly (according to J. Nielsen and WAI), then both the power
users and newbies will be able to understand how to deal with the links.

I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.

Well, I disagree with this sort of argument. Pure force or economical
constraints are not the basis of a good sound web design project. Your
argument is justifying poor design, weak usability, etc..

Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.

A great deal of your website design work is to explain, to document and
to justify your design decisions to your customers. In the last
analysis, if you care about usability, accessibility and best suitable
website design, your web design decisions will be the most beneficial to
the users/visitors and to the website owners. No one likes poorly
designed website based on multiple secondary windows.
The bottom line is very adamant: give what the end users want: clear
navigation, no cluttered design, flexibility, customization, accessibility.

God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
in new window.

Just a standard website with outbound links of relevance

I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open

in

new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know

of

these things.

Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.

If the design is well done, the avg. browser user will not get confused
when you open one single secondary window and when such window is
recycled, reused for an image gallery. The wisdom is to code flexibility
and accessibility for the enduser and power user: it's definitively doable.

I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(

Si

You're finding a rather weak alibi here as a challenge which can only
benefit your income and your resume.

DU

 

[Starshine Moonbeam]

Hi there.

Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
Target attribute or Javascript?

I don't think you can.

 

[jake]

Then why to do that?

Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.

I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.

Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.

God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
in new window.

Just a standard website with outbound links of relevance

I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open in
new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
these things.

Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.

New windows are good for people that:
1) get the idea of multible windows
2) don't get that one can open them

It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
them to understand what it is good for.

I Agree completely, customer doesn't though :-(

Si

I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I'd be surprised if anybody really has problems with a page opening in a
new window, although there should be a warning for users of assistive
technology (AT) readers in case they miss whatever queue their system
puts out.

I'd avoid opening more than one window at a time, though.


regards.

 

[Lauri Raittila]

I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I'd be surprised if anybody really has problems with a page opening in a
new window,

I have constantly. I use net about 8 hours a day, and have been doing so
for 3 years. Of course, I know almost immidiately what is problem (why my
back command don't work, for example)

I know I should install local proxy to get rid of extra stuff, but I
haven't bothered to make my thing even more complex. (using one local
tunneling proxy and 2 nonlocal proxies already)

I wonder, if there is anybody everywhere, that does have problem with
something not opening new window.

 

[Neal]

I have constantly. I use net about 8 hours a day, and have been doing so
for 3 years. Of course, I know almost immidiately what is problem (why my
back command don't work, for example)

I have a similar yet different issue. I set up Opera to open popups in the
background. Sometimes i click what looks like a link, and "nothing"
happens. I try 3 times, until I see that it was a popup, how sweet.

In every case I've seen there was no good reason to open a new window.

 

[Karl Core]

I'd be surprised if anybody really has problems with a page opening in a
new window

In a usability test we did in May, a site opened new windows with the target
attribute and EVERY SINGLE PARTICIPANT exhibited confusion & frustration
with the site. Most users didn't even notice the new window, so when they
wanted to go back to where they were, they tried using the back button which
of course did not work anymore.

Now, let me offer a qualifier here - the biggest issue wasn't JUST the fact
that the new window existed. The biggest issue was the fact that the window
was full size, therefore covering the old window completely. This is what
caused the users' confusion. Worse still, about half the participants
totally closed all browser windows and completely started over. It was kind
of funny, because I remember getting into all sorts of arguments at my last
job because they insisted on opening new windows "so the visitor doesn't
lose our site" when in actuality, the new windows appear to actually cause
people to lose the site rather than keep them.

It boils down to this: Had they known the new window was there, they would
have been able to deal with it better.

So, the interim solution one might entertain might be to always ensure that
these new windows are noticeably smaller than full screen - say, 700 x 500.
Now, that doesn't negate the fact that people just don't like new windows.
But at least this keeps people from getting lost altogether.

-Karl

 

[jake]

In a usability test we did in May, a site opened new windows with the target
attribute and EVERY SINGLE PARTICIPANT exhibited confusion & frustration
with the site. Most users didn't even notice the new window, so when they
wanted to go back to where they were, they tried using the back button which
of course did not work anymore.

And which is why I suggested "..although there should be a warning for
users of assistive technology (AT) readers in case they miss whatever
queue their system puts out ..".

So, this would also seem to apply, then, to other (non-AT) users?

Tell me a little about the kind of users you were using for that test.
Where they regular Web users? or just occasional? Red-hot surfers or the
naturally confused ;-)

Now, let me offer a qualifier here - the biggest issue wasn't JUST the fact
that the new window existed. The biggest issue was the fact that the window
was full size, therefore covering the old window completely. This is what
caused the users' confusion. Worse still, about half the participants
totally closed all browser windows and completely started over. It was kind
of funny, because I remember getting into all sorts of arguments at my last
job because they insisted on opening new windows "so the visitor doesn't
lose our site" when in actuality, the new windows appear to actually cause
people to lose the site rather than keep them.

It boils down to this: Had they known the new window was there, they would
have been able to deal with it better.
Agreed.

So, the interim solution one might entertain might be to always ensure that
these new windows are noticeably smaller than full screen - say, 700 x 500.
Now, that doesn't negate the fact that people just don't like new windows.
But at least this keeps people from getting lost altogether.

..... or 200% big red letters saying "PAGE OPENS IN A NEW WINDOW -- MAKE
SURE YOU DON'T FORGET, OK?" ;-)

 

[Karl Core]

And which is why I suggested "..although there should be a warning for
users of assistive technology (AT) readers in case they miss whatever
queue their system puts out ..".

So, this would also seem to apply, then, to other (non-AT) users?

Yes. It definitely applies to ALL users

Tell me a little about the kind of users you were using for that test.
Where they regular Web users? or just occasional? Red-hot surfers or the
naturally confused ;-)

It was a mix of users. Out of 12 participants, there was one "power user" &
one "newbie", both of which we try to avoid. All the others were people who
used the web regularly for work and play.

.... or 200% big red letters saying "PAGE OPENS IN A NEW WINDOW -- MAKE
SURE YOU DON'T FORGET, OK?" ;-)

Even better, make those big letter scroll across the page & spin really
fast!

-Karl

 

[Travis Newbury]

People pay even more money for experts that get good results. Those are
people that don't hesitate to say customer that he is wrong.

Be careful that you don't get annoying and lose the client though. We
had a client that wanted a 100% flash site. It did not matter to him
that people might not see it. "All my clients use flash" he was sure of
it. We warned, he said no, so we built him a 100% flash site.

Let the customer know the good and bad about their choices. Then do what
ever they decide. We are unwilling to "give one up" for the cause.

 

[Travis Newbury]

Yes you can: in fact, you MUST...
...It's your responsibility to the client to stress your professional
opinion. And it's your responsibility to ethical and consciencious web
authors around the world to threaten to pull out unless realistic and
appropriate standards are agreed to for the project.

If turning it down means the rent is late, sorry, the cause goes out the
window.